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Wiring Continental Phone - 6T Dial - Help!

Started by Dennis Markham, November 01, 2009, 03:25:48 PM

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Dennis Markham

I'm working on a Pekin Red Continental D1 Body with a 6T dial dated 1975, as I mentioned in this posting:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=1662.0

My goal is to have this phone work while connected to a 634A subscriber set.

I'm having problems and now as I try and assemble all the parts I am discovering some major differences from the standard Continental with a 6D dial.

Prior to identifying differences I wired the 4 conductor desk stand cord according to the standard wiring diagram, as my other phones are wired and as Bingster illustrated here:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=784.0

I got no dial tone.  But when connected to my 302 ringer box (that I know works) of course it rang but it had no bearing on the telephone connections.  The box would ring with no phone connected.

I began to look closer.  I noticed that the contact switch stack is different on the Pekin Red phone than from all of my other Continental phones.

In the attached photos you will see the contact switch hook stack of the phone in question (6T dial) followed by my silver Imperial with a 6D dial.

When off hook, on the stack with the 6D dial all four contacts are making contact.  With the arrangement with the 6T dial only the bottom contacts are making contact while off-hook.

Differences on the 6T dial show that there is an "extra" terminal, labled BL.  Also, where the "Y" terminal is on the 6D the terminal is labled "Y".  Looking at the TCI Library BSP for #6 dials

http://www.telephonecollectors.org/DocumentLibrary/BSPs/501Division/501-162-100.pdf

the list of #6 dials stops with 6S.

So my question(s) are:  Is this dial compatible/usable with the Continental?  I can rebuild the stack to make it like the ones used for the 6D.  But what will that give me?  If I leave the stack the way it is, I need to know how to properly wire the four conductor cord (Red, Black, Yellow, Green) to the dial on one end and to the 634A on the other end.  

Additional Information:

The 634A Subscriber set has a 101A Induction coil.  

The phone was purchased separately from the ringer box.  Since that was the dial that was black, I don't think it is original to the phone.  There was a 7 conductor cord connected to the phone when it was sent to me.  I disconnected the cord (actually a partial cord--it had been cut) without notating connections.  It was a rat's next.

Also, currently I have two jumper wires and have them connected according to Bingster's diagram.  With W on the contact to BB on the dial and BK on the contact stack to G on the dial, which is the terminal that is in the position of the one marked "Y" on the 6D.  Got that? :)

I can provide photos of the 634A if I ever get that far.

Perhaps this 6T dial was not originally made for dial phone use.  Also I think the switch stack was "jake-rigged" by whoever installed that dial in the phone.

Additional Note:  The dial contacts on the 6D are:  W, BB, BK, R, Y.  The contacts on the 6T are W, BB, BK, R, G, BL

bingster

Wow... I've never seen anything like that.  Normally, odd stacks should be found on the other D bases (D2, D3, etc.).  Personally, I'd take the easiest route:  rebuild the stack on the phone to standard D1 configuration, and swap the dial out for a standard 6A.  It would require painting another dial case, of course, but I wouldn't fight with these parts.
= DARRIN =



Dennis Markham

Bingster, I thought about that too...replacing the dial and rearranging the stack.  I tried to convince the owner of this phone in the beginning to let me put a different dial in there bu the didn't want to spring for a new finger wheel, let alone a dial.  I have a couple of spare 5J's that are what should probably be in there.

I wonder what the application was for the 6T?  Did you mean 6D (as with my Imperial) or would 6A be better?  Either way I'll have to hunt for one.  I have plenty of #7's, a few #5, but no extra #6's.

Thanks for the quick reply.

Jester

Dennis,

I'd start with the stack first.  It appears that some leaves are inverted and maybe even out of order in the "make first-break last" sequence, and are open when the switch plunger is fully up, which should allow both contacts to fully close.  Your dial circuit may be fine.  I can't say for sure because your 6T photo doesn't show the contact points & I am not familiar with that dial.  It also appears the white handset lead wasn't screwed to terminal "W" in the picture?
Stephen

Phonesrfun

To me it looks like the 6T dial uses schematic C found on page 5 of the dial reference link you provided.  Instead of the pulse contact being wired to Y and BK, it looks likd the pulse contacts are GN and BL.  Wire the dial as if GN and BL were Y and BK, respectively.  Also run a short jumper between BL and BK on the dial.

I must be missing something because others have said something about the switch hook stack that I don't see.
-Bill G

Dennis Markham

Thank you guys for the tips.  Jester, you are observant and I should have indicated in my posting that I disconnected the W connection (white wire) because it was in my way when I tried to take the picture.  I know that it is off.

So I think if I return the switch stack to a normal D1 mount I can then look into rewiring the dial in order to make it work.

I had already connected the wire normally connected to "Y" to the "G" but wired the remaining terminals the way I would any other dial.  That left terminal BL empty.

The short jumper you refer to....between BL and BK on the dial, that would be in addition to the two jumpers I already have from W on the switch to BB and BK on the switch to Y (G) on the dial?

I can take some better photos of the dial switches if you think that would help with a diagnosis.

Bill the difference in the switch stack is shown in my first two photos.  Look closely at them.  The top photo depicts the current condition of the stack.  When the phone is off hook there is one set of contacts that touch.  The second photo is what I call "normal" contacts which has both leafs making contact when off hook.

I replied to your PM Bill, thank you for your offer to assist over the telephone.

bingster

Quote from: Dennis Markham on November 01, 2009, 03:54:27 PM
Bingster, I thought about that too...replacing the dial and rearranging the stack.  I tried to convince the owner of this phone in the beginning to let me put a different dial in there bu the didn't want to spring for a new finger wheel, let alone a dial.  I have a couple of spare 5J's that are what should probably be in there.

I wonder what the application was for the 6T?  Did you mean 6D (as with my Imperial) or would 6A be better?  Either way I'll have to hunt for one.  I have plenty of #7's, a few #5, but no extra #6's.

Thanks for the quick reply.

If you do decide to replace the dial, I wouldn't put anything nice like a 5J in there.  I'd take a standard 6A, paint the case white, and throw that in.   I wouldn't charge for the dial, because it'll give you an interesting dial to add to your collection, and the 6A is common as dirt, anyway.  But if you can get the 6T working with Bill's instructions, that'll save you a dial.
= DARRIN =



bingster

Sorry, I missed the part where you said you had no spare #6 dials.  I'd definitely try Bill's suggestion for wiring the 6T, then.  No way would I install a #5, even though it should have a 5J, as you mentioned.
= DARRIN =



Dennis Markham

Good advice Bingster.  I'll save those 5J's for a rainy day.....for my own phones.

Dennis Markham

Phase I of the repair has been completed.  I rebuilt the stack.  And then, with the help of Phonesrfun, I have wired the D1 as a manual.  It works normally.  The next phase is to try and wire the dial properly followed by a connection to the 634A Ringer box to complete the project.

I connected my B1 to the 634A and it works OK but I'm getting bell-tap during dialing and when lifting the receiver off the hook.  I switched green/red mounting cord wires but it does not correct the problem, nor does adjusting the bias tension.  But I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.  For now, the dial is next on my list.  I hope to complete the wiring using this 6T-41 dial.

Jester, I'm going to follow your instructions on the dial wiring.

Dennis Markham

Quote from: Phonesrfun on November 01, 2009, 06:59:50 PM
To me it looks like the 6T dial uses schematic C found on page 5 of the dial reference link you provided.  Instead of the pulse contact being wired to Y and BK, it looks likd the pulse contacts are GN and BL.  Wire the dial as if GN and BL were Y and BK, respectively.  Also run a short jumper between BL and BK on the dial.

Bill, in addition to this should I still run the standard jumpers from the switch "W" to Dial "BB" and Switch "BK" to Dial "Y", treating Y and BK on the dial as GN and BL as above?

Phonesrfun

Yes, all other aspects of the wiring should be the same as your Imperial/continental
-Bill G

Dennis Markham

I'm getting close.  I found another knot that needed to be untied.  I connect the phone per your instructions.  No dial tone.  But wait!  When I moved the dial off-normal I got a dial tone.  Once again comparing the dial with another #6 dial, there are equal number of contacts despite additional terminals.  I noticed that the contacts from the BB terminal were the ones causing dial tone when the dial was moved off-normal.  I compared those contacts with those on the known good #6 dial.  The BB contacts should be closed when the dial is normal.  So now it is just a matter of removing the dial once again, so I can remove the dust cover and bend the contact so that it makes contact when in the normal, off hook position.

The photo attached shows the 6T dial up close.  The culprit is the right hand contact, the BB contact.

Still close but no cigar......yet.

Dennis Markham

#13
I think I'm kind of back to square one and this issue must be corrected, if possible with wiring.  The 6T was apparently designed for the BB contacts to be separate while the dial is at rest.  I did  not notice the tab on the contact that holds the contacts apart during rest.  This is contrary to the other #6 dials that have a rubber nodule that pushes the BB contacts together while at rest, producing the dial tone.

Note the next two photos.  The first showing the 6T dial with the BB contacts apart while at rest and secondly the "normal" #6 where the contacts are pushed together while at rest.  They BB contacts on the two dials are opposite, with the thicker of the two contacts being in opposite positions.

The wiring I used when last connected, that gave me the dial tone when the dial was moved off-normal was as follows:

Mounting Cord Wires

Green to GN on Switch
Red to R on Dial
Yellow to Y on Switch
Black to BK on Dial

Handset Cord Wires

White to W on dial
Black to BK on Dial
Red to R on Dial

Jumpers

BK on Switch to "G" Terminal on Dial
W on Switch to BB on Dial
Jumper from BL to BK on Dial

Dennis Markham

NOTE:  I modified my last posting at the very end when I told which jumpers went where.  I made the jumper from BL to BK not to BB as I initial wrote.