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Is there a 'proper' ringer for a 354 with 101B coil?

Started by Mr. Bones, April 29, 2013, 10:10:58 PM

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Mr. Bones

Good evening.

     I recently acquired a very nice 354 telephone, but it is completely devoid of a ringer. No evidence, in fact, of ever having had one installed.

     It has the 101B coil, as mentioned in the subject line. If what I understand, from reading previous posts, is correct, I can utilize either a 2, or 4-wire 302-type ringer, with no ill effects, in this phone?

     Just making sure, so I don't "spend good money, after bad...", while chasing one down.

     Thanks, in advance, for your assistance, and advice!

Best regards!
Sláinte!
   Mr. Bones
      Rubricollis Ferus

Phonesrfun

The B2A ringer with the split winding was the correct ringer for automatic number identification, which is no longer used, so these days a B1A would work just fine.
-Bill G

poplar1

Just make sure the ringer has the holes for mounting in a 354.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Mr. Bones

#3
Quote from: poplar1 on April 30, 2013, 12:56:39 PM
Just make sure the ringer has the holes for mounting in a 354.

Ah!

    Thanks, David. I did not realize the mounting hole patterns were different.

    Did they make dual patterned ones, after the introduction of the 354's, so they would fit both (302 / 354)? Seems like something WE might do, for interchangeability.

    I guess I'd better get busy looking at some pics of open 302's, and 354's...maybe I was confused, and they are two completely different ringers.

Best regards!

Terrence
Sláinte!
   Mr. Bones
      Rubricollis Ferus

poplar1

If it has holes it will still fit in 302s.

I don't recall the difference in B1A and B1AL but it may be that the leads are longer on a B1AL. Not sure if there is a difference in part numbers for the ringers with holes. Probably after 1946 they all would have had holes, but I'll have to look.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

poplar1

"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Mr. Bones

#6
Quote from: poplar1 on April 30, 2013, 07:12:52 PM
Notice that Larry's 1953 green 302 has the ringer mount that requires holes.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=9041.0;topicseen

Thanks for the responce, David!

    I looked through the provided thread; I am guessing these circled are the referred-to mounting holes, from the gorgeous, green 302:(?)

    The ones I am seeing depicted, thus far, on 354-types, seem to have the holes, but also a clip / cradle bracket type thing to affix it to the backplate. The 2nd pic seems capable of mounting to either set, based upon the holes I am seeing. I still have a lot more looking to do.

Sláinte!
   Mr. Bones
      Rubricollis Ferus

poplar1

I stand corrected. The 354 in your picture does have the older style ringer bracket with a large screw that keeps the ringer from moving out of the bracket.

I knew my short term memory was going, but it appears that so is my long-term memory. I appreciate your correcting my error.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Mr. Bones

Quote from: poplar1 on April 30, 2013, 09:55:16 PM
I stand corrected. The 354 in your picture does have the older style ringer bracket with a large screw that keeps the ringer from moving out of the bracket.
No correction intended, whatsoever, David! Sorry for the confusing post / pictures.

      I was taking guesses at the facts I could, thus far, derive about the possible / potential differences in ringers between the 300-series models, based upon a relatively few, discernible pictures that I could readily find / upload off the web and what I could search out here on the forum, without having to bother anybody.

     The first two pics are web images. the third one, I present here for your consideration, is the actual insides of my ringerless 354.
Quote
I knew my short term memory was going, but it appears that so is my long-term memory. I appreciate your correcting my error.
Memory is strange, no doubt. I can vividly remember, and recall sights, smells, and events from -3 years of age, to current date. As to where I mislaid my truck keys, or my coffee, 5 minutes ago... please, don't press me on those! ;)
[/quote]

     I am so very sorry for providing unclear, less-than-concise information, and asking those here to give me a much-hoped-for, clear, concise answer. It was most unfair of me. I was sort of bumbling forward, and accidentally dragged you all along.

Best regards, and thanks for your immense patience!

Terrence
Sláinte!
   Mr. Bones
      Rubricollis Ferus

poplar1

OK, looking at the photo of your 1952 354, your phone does require a ringer with holes.
Sometime between 1949 and 1952 WE must have changed the style of the ringer mount in 354s. Hopefully, owners of 354s and 302s can narrow down the date.

Most WE 302s I have seen that were made after 1952 are in color. The black and ivory 354s were made for another 3 years or so.

Northern Electric kept making 302s after WE had "manufacture discontinued" them.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Mr. Bones

David,    

    I just received a 12-48 manual 302 today in the post. It was / is a ringerless phone, hence the 1978 extension ringer included in the item's listing.

    It has an earlier, hole-less ringer bracket that I believe you were referring to: now, I can see the difference!

    (Cool! ;D Got to learn something new today! I always love that, especially when related to something I enjoy, vs. just work, ::) etc. lol!)

Best regards!
Sláinte!
   Mr. Bones
      Rubricollis Ferus

N8N

I think the pic you posted with the 5-49 dated ringer might be my phone...

let me know if you need any more detailed info or pics from that phone, it's off the wall but convenient right now as I was messing with the ringer today and screwed up the receiver by dropping the handset (d'oh.)

The phone worked fine before I dropped the handset, but I can't guarantee that the wiring on the terminal blocks etc. is as it would have been done from the factory, as the phone when I got it was wired differently (for a party line?) and I moved everything around based on wiring diagrams that I found online to get it to work.

Mr. Bones

Quote from: N8N on May 07, 2013, 06:04:47 PM
I think the pic you posted with the 5-49 dated ringer might be my phone...

let me know if you need any more detailed info or pics from that phone, it's off the wall but convenient right now as I was messing with the ringer today and screwed up the receiver by dropping the handset (d'oh.)
November Ate November,

     I'd love some detailed pics of the wiring, terminations, interior details, etc. Eventually, I'll find a ringer, and am going to have to figure out how to wire it all up. So very sorry to hear about the 'handset accident'; sounds like something I would do. ::)
Quote
The phone worked fine before I dropped the handset, but I can't guarantee that the wiring on the terminal blocks etc. is as it would have been done from the factory, as the phone when I got it was wired differently (for a party line?) and I moved everything around based on wiring diagrams that I found online to get it to work.

     Murphy's Law is in full effect here: "If it's stupid, but it works, then it's not stupid" lol! :D

     Thanks for the kind offer;I look forward to seeing some more detail on these ol' gals. Seems to be a dearth of it out in cyberland....

Best regards, KCØRDR out!

73!
Sláinte!
   Mr. Bones
      Rubricollis Ferus

N8N

Quote from: Mr. Bones on May 07, 2013, 08:42:18 PM
Quote from: N8N on May 07, 2013, 06:04:47 PM
I think the pic you posted with the 5-49 dated ringer might be my phone...

let me know if you need any more detailed info or pics from that phone, it's off the wall but convenient right now as I was messing with the ringer today and screwed up the receiver by dropping the handset (d'oh.)
November Ate November,

     I'd love some detailed pics of the wiring, terminations, interior details, etc. Eventually, I'll find a ringer, and am going to have to figure out how to wire it all up. So very sorry to hear about the 'handset accident'; sounds like something I would do. ::)
Quote
The phone worked fine before I dropped the handset, but I can't guarantee that the wiring on the terminal blocks etc. is as it would have been done from the factory, as the phone when I got it was wired differently (for a party line?) and I moved everything around based on wiring diagrams that I found online to get it to work.

     Murphy's Law is in full effect here: "If it's stupid, but it works, then it's not stupid" lol! :D

     Thanks for the kind offer;I look forward to seeing some more detail on these ol' gals. Seems to be a dearth of it out in cyberland....

Best regards, KCØRDR out!

73!

I'll try to get some pics this weekend and show the ringer both installed and removed which is what I assume that you wanted.

Unfortunately I do not have a 302 to compare and contrast but I am willing to accept donations :)  (actually was considering picking one up for a desk phone)

N8N

OK, it's not quite the weekend anymore but here are some pics of the phone...  they're kind of large but still poor quality as I'm still getting used to my new phone...  anyway, here they are

http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/thatguyN8/library/Old%20WE%20phone?sort=2&page=1

As you can see the ringer is held in place to the backplate by three rivets, which I did not drill out for purposes of this exercise :/

I'm not sure what the function of the brass colored screw is; I assumed it was to hold the ringer in place but it really doesn't.  The ends of the threads are upset so you cannot remove it.  (I loosened it thinking it was holding the ringer in place but it did nothing; then I removed the modular adapter plate and saw the rivets.)

It appears that both of the wires that are landed on the "E" terminals, the black wire going to the "K" terminal, and the red wire going to the "L1" terminal are all from the ringer.  This diagram confirms that:

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/wiring-diagrams/western-electric/doc_details/2305-300-series-wall-telephones-354-tl

Somewhere I found a color version of that, but I haven't a clue *where* I found it...

Edit: it's here (should have known) http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=5172.0

I'm sorry I ended up being less than helpful here, I didn't realize that the ringer was riveted on until I actually went to take the pictures for you.  I'm assuming that some creativity with an electrician's hand tap tool and some small machine screws might be in order here...

If there's any more information I can get for you from this phone (non-destructively, that is) let me know!

In other news, a forum member was kind enough to send me a replacement receiver cap so now other than a little tiny mark on the handset itself it's "like it never even happened."  And my roommate's cat is scared crapless of the phone ringing (unlike the old Trimline that's been in the kitchen for a while) which I find amusing even though I actually do like the little fuzzball.