Hi, I own a couple of AE40's. One was given to me by my Dad a few years ago that I still use daily, very awesome phone. The second I bought just a couple of weeks ago. It is an excellent phone, but it is missing the lift piece that goes under the receiver. I'd like to find a replacement part but part of my problem is, I don't even know what this part is called, which makes doing a search a bit difficult. A handle? A lift? If anyone could shed a little light, I would be very thankful. Thanks!
It's probably called a "Lift Handle" but I have only ever seen the Butler type listed in catalogues.
It is unusual to be missing - it might be that it should be the Butler type and the swinging section is missing. Are there two pieces (maybe chrome) attached to the cradle with holes where a handle might have been - think of a bucket handle?
There are replacements on eBay but only for coloured phones.
Regards
Jack
Here is the replacement Butler handle
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221893539831
Regards
Jack
The AE40s were ranked a bit like cars, with different luxury options. The most basic version of the AE40 without any luxury options would have had a black painted fingerwheel, straight handset cord (no "Extensicord"), no handset bands, and no lift like yours. I actually have one that desperately needs repair without any options, just cut-and-dry utility-based.
I think the most luxurious version would have had a Butler's Handle in place of the lift, an Extensicord, and 24 karat gold plated trim (includes fingerwheel, either Butler's Handle or lift, and handset bands).
So the part you're looking for may not have even been installed in your phone in the first place. There should be two metal filler pieces in both cradles that replace the lift on your set. They would probably be painted black, so seeing them is trickier than that other chrome lift in the picture.
Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on November 16, 2015, 08:18:01 AM
The AE40s were ranked a bit like cars, with different luxury options. The most basic version of the AE40 without any luxury options would have had a black painted fingerwheel, straight handset cord (no "Extensicord"), no handset bands, and no lift like yours. I actually have one that desperately needs repair without any options, just cut-and-dry utility-based.
Interesting. I have never seen an AE 40 without a Lift Handle or the holes where the Butler version of the Lift Handle might have been. Neither have I seen a Type 41 handset without bands - sometimes the bands were black - but they were always there.
The catalogues aren't really clear but the Butler mounts that are painted black may not have been supplied with a handle for the basic model. There are finger holds on the sides of the case near the cradle to aid with lifting.
Jack
Quote from: Jack Ryan on November 16, 2015, 09:20:31 AM
Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on November 16, 2015, 08:18:01 AM
The AE40s were ranked a bit like cars, with different luxury options. The most basic version of the AE40 without any luxury options would have had a black painted fingerwheel, straight handset cord (no "Extensicord"), no handset bands, and no lift like yours. I actually have one that desperately needs repair without any options, just cut-and-dry utility-based.
Interesting. I have never seen an AE 40 without a Lift Handle or the holes where the Butler version of the Lift Handle might have been. Neither have I seen a Type 41 handset without bands - sometimes the bands were black - but they were always there.
The catalogues aren't really clear but the Butler mounts that are painted black may not have been supplied with a handle for the basic model. There are finger holds on the sides of the case near the cradle to aid with lifting.
Jack
IIRC this one did have holes for the Butler Handle, I believe they all did.
I plan on restoring this one to factory specifications. It has a missing dial, rubber base ring, and has two giant cracks with missing pieces, but the condition otherwise isn't that bad.
I looked a bit further. It seems that the early models all had provision for the "Butler" type Lift Handle but the handle itself was optional. Later models dropped the Butler handle and provided the fixed Lift Handle in black for the basic models and chrome for the up-market models.
All had the molded lift aids on the side of the case.
Jack
Quote from: Jack Ryan on November 16, 2015, 09:56:18 AM
I looked a bit further. It seems that the early models all had provision for the "Butler" type Lift Handle but the handle itself was optional. Later models dropped the Butler handle and provided the fixed Lift Handle in black for the basic models and chrome for the up-market models.
All had the molded lift aids on the side of the case.
Jack
Catching up on this thread, your last post is the one I can agree with most.
The patent record shows various attempts of introducing carrying features into the AE 34 and 40 line, starting with the finger hold space, a la the WECo 302, in the 34A3A, that we discussed here recently. The molded grip area on the side of the cradle posts, which simply provides better grip traction was the first kind introduced in the AE 40. IIRC, there are three varieties of cradle features. The simplest one simply has a metal saddle on each post without any handle. The metal saddles may have a hole on the inside for insertion of the 'butler handle' that normally rests flat onto the housing toward the back, and swings up into the carrying position when used. It is kind of sculpted (bent) around the handset handle, as pictured in this thread, so it doesn't impact on it when used. Another kind of carrying feature uses a metal bridge between the cradle posts, the saddles essentially form one bridge across the entire cradle, this was pictured in the very first post of this topic. I think there was another kind, perhaps never used in production, IIRC, I haven't written this history up for myself, so I have trouble recalling the history accurately now. I don't recall right now whether the saddles-only type always had the hole for the handle, or only sometimes.
Are you sure that the handset "never" had metal bands? I think I have seen or found barn-fresh set(s) without bands, that seemed never touched by 'scavengers'. The catalogs certainly all indicate the bands.
PS: Btw, if I recall, the original patent of the 40-type did not specify any carrying features, but the side grip moldings were featured in the first catalog mention in 1940.
Here are two of the lift features of the AE 40. The set was manufactured between 1955 and 1958, by my 'guess'.
Shown are the molded grip features in the sides of the cradle posts, as well as the holes in the metal saddles on each cradle recess, I suppose they could be called a fulcrum.
PS: After re-examination of the actual unit, rather than its archive picture, the set has a hole on only one side. And the metal part shown that does have it is mounted in the wrong side, the hole should be behind the plunger not toward the front. This is clearly a refurbishment error.
I've had several of the model 40's with no handle and no provision for a butler handle. I think these are very early models before the lift handle came out.
Here's a description from an early AE catalog - notice that it makes no mention of a butler handle nor a lift handle.
Quote from: wds on November 16, 2015, 01:25:17 PM
I've had several of the model 40's with no handle and no provision for a butler handle. I think these are very early models before the lift handle came out.
Well, this photo of yours does show the same anchor hole as in my set. Doesn't it? [
PS: picture withdrawn after clarification, not to cause extra distraction.]
But in any case, I do seem to recall having seen sets without the holes. The patent (US 2244918) for this feature wasn't published until 1941 however, while it was submitted subsequently to the AE 40 base patent, in 1938. This patent doesn't show the butler handle in the shape we know, as pictured in this thread, but as a flat metal sheet of perhaps an inch width anchored in the same holes. The patent also shows the bridge type static lifting feature. Later, ca. 1947 they published another feature that is substantially similar to the bridge type, but does not complete the bridge across the entire cradle, but simply only maintains ca. 1/2 inch ears under which one's fingers go.
Ok, here is the well-known butler handle patent by Sengebush, applied for in 1938 and published in 1940:
US2200810 1940 1938 Sengebusch AEL--Desk Telephone Set
The 1947 patent, which I don't recall having seen implemented.
US2430276 1947 1945 Candy AEL--Desk Telephone Lifting Device
EdTel;
The phone I have has the same lift handle as yours, but not chromed.
D/P
Quote from: Dan/Panther on November 16, 2015, 02:10:56 PM
EdTel;
The phone I have has the same lift handle as yours, but not chromed.
D/P
Yes, all of these metal parts came in chromed or black-enameled versions.
But it seems the plungers were always chrome?
Quote from: unbeldi on November 16, 2015, 02:15:58 PM
Yes, all of these metal parts came in chromed or black-enameled versions.
But it seems the plungers were always chrome?
Look at the first picture in the post. The plungers look black to me. I don't remember seeing many of those. Funny that it would have a chrome fingerwheel and not chrome plungers. I have my aunt's AE40 that hasn't been touched since it was taken out of service in the 1970s and it has the reverse of this--chrome plungers, a party line switchhook and black handhold and fingerwheel.
Our AE40 when I was a kid had a chrome handhold and plungers and black everything else, with no metal bands on the handset of any type. Just black Bakelite. I was always amazed at how cold the chrome parts of those phones felt when I used phones at other people's houses and the doctor's office.
Evidently it was a mix or match kind of thing and you could get any combination of chrome parts.
No, the red circle is not a hole for the handle. Just some dirt - that picture was taken before I cleaned up the phone. I've had several of these with no holes for the butler handle. Look at this picture - you can see the actual hole is in a total different location.
Quote from: wds on November 16, 2015, 02:45:54 PM
No, the red circle is not a hole for the handle. Just some dirt - that picture was taken before I cleaned up the phone. I've had several of these with no holes for the butler handle. Look at this picture - you can see the actual hole is in a total different location.
Ok, thanks for the clarification. [PS: picture withdrawn after this clarification, to streamline the thread.]
Interesting that the holes in this set with the handle indeed are in a different location, just behind the plungers, whereas in my pictured set they are before.
Also yours is missing the metal saddles, but it does appear to have black plungers.
Strike that about the metal, I think it is there in yours, just without paint.
Also notice the black plungers. I believe these are bakelite. I will double check them when I get home tonight.
Quote from: unbeldi on November 16, 2015, 10:58:00 AM
Are you sure that the handset "never" had metal bands? I think I have seen or found barn-fresh set(s) without bands, that seemed never touched by 'scavengers'. The catalogs certainly all indicate the bands.
I have never seen a Type 41 handset without bands and the description of the Type 41 from 1940 implies that the bands are always present. The spare part catalogues don't show bands at all; I assume that the bands were not available as a separate part.
I haven't taken much notice but I would think that if the fixed Lift Handle were fitted, there would be no provision for the Butler handle. I'll make a point of checking in future.
Jack
Quote from: wds on November 16, 2015, 01:25:17 PM
I've had several of the model 40's with no handle and no provision for a butler handle. I think these are very early models before the lift handle came out.
Thanks Dave, I had not seen an AE 40 configured like that (without Butler holes).
Hack
I checked the phone again, and the black plungers are bakelite. Also, on those holes for the butler handle - if the holes in my phone were any farther forward, the handle would not be able to lay flat. Not the best picture, but you can see that the handle just barely clears the phone - move the handle forward and the handle would either not go in the hole, or while in the hole it would not lay flat on the back of the phone. Must have had a different handle to accommodate the holes closer to the front?
Also, a better picture of the phone with no hole for the butler handle - after being cleaned.
Quote from: wds on November 16, 2015, 07:14:38 PM
Also, on those holes for the butler handle - if the holes in my phone were any farther forward, the handle would not be able to lay flat. Not the best picture, but you can see that the handle just barely clears the phone - move the handle forward and the handle would either not go in the hole, or while in the hole it would not lay flat on the back of the phone. Must have had a different handle to accommodate the holes closer to the front?
Perhaps another handle was tried or perhaps the blocks are mounted backwards. I just checked one of mine and the holes are at the rear (no handle).
Jack
Quote from: Jack Ryan on November 16, 2015, 07:41:03 PM
Quote from: wds on November 16, 2015, 07:14:38 PM
Also, on those holes for the butler handle - if the holes in my phone were any farther forward, the handle would not be able to lay flat. Not the best picture, but you can see that the handle just barely clears the phone - move the handle forward and the handle would either not go in the hole, or while in the hole it would not lay flat on the back of the phone. Must have had a different handle to accommodate the holes closer to the front?
Perhaps another handle was tried or perhaps the blocks are mounted backwards. I just checked one of mine and the holes are at the rear (no handle).
Jack
Hmm, interesting. Is it easy to remove the metal saddles? It never occurred to me to try that until now.
Notice the unpainted area around the plunger - could it be that some other type of handle was mounted instead of the butler handle?
Quote from: wds on November 16, 2015, 08:12:16 PM
Notice the unpainted area around the plunger - could it be that some other type of handle was mounted instead of the butler handle?
I was going to ask you about those areas, because they don't look like ordinary wear.
The handles I have observed seem to replace the entire saddle.
Somehow it still seems to me that there is something missing, perhaps another layer of metal that has rounded corners?
PS: Terri posted some comments about the construction in this topic (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13418.msg140465#msg140465), where he states that sometimes one can find sets that have only the "plunger block", a zinc cast piece for the plunger holes.
I think perhaps this what you have there.
He also showed a picture of static lift handle that looks like the pivoted one, but stands up permanently.
Well that's interesting, and that's probably it. there's a couple of holes next to the receiver buttons that look like it would fit this handle perfectly. I had just assumed that it would take a handle/lift like the one in my picture....learn something new every day. Thanks!
Quote from: Jack Ryan on November 16, 2015, 12:43:54 AM
Here is the replacement Butler handle
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221893539831
Regards
Jack
It looked from the rub marks that there was something there, but it didn't make sense to me just how a standard lift handle would fit over the receiver cradle. But the butler handle? That makes sense. I had no idea that these phones came with 'options', interesting how times have changed.
Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on November 16, 2015, 08:18:01 AM
The AE40s were ranked a bit like cars, with different luxury options. The most basic version of the AE40 without any luxury options would have had a black painted fingerwheel, straight handset cord (no "Extensicord"), no handset bands, and no lift like yours. I actually have one that desperately needs repair without any options, just cut-and-dry utility-based.
I think the most luxurious version would have had a Butler's Handle in place of the lift, an Extensicord, and 24 karat gold plated trim (includes fingerwheel, either Butler's Handle or lift, and handset bands).
So the part you're looking for may not have even been installed in your phone in the first place. There should be two metal filler pieces in both cradles that replace the lift on your set. They would probably be painted black, so seeing them is trickier than that other chrome lift in the picture.
Yep, that's exactly what my AE40 that is missing the lift looks like. Spot on.
Quote from: unbeldi on November 16, 2015, 01:21:00 PM
Here are two of the lift features of the AE 40. The set was manufactured between 1955 and 1958, by my 'guess'.
Shown are the molded grip features in the sides of the cradle posts, as well as the holes in the metal saddles on each cradle recess, I suppose they could be called a fulcrum.
The buttons on my phone that has the handle are not chromed, but the ones on the phone without the handle do have chrome. Having said that though, I could not say whether the unchromed ones are original or not, but they are functional.
Amazing how much I have learned in one simple post. I think I'm going to like this forum :D
Quote from: unbeldi on November 16, 2015, 02:15:58 PM
Quote from: Dan/Panther on November 16, 2015, 02:10:56 PM
EdTel;
The phone I have has the same lift handle as yours, but not chromed.
D/P
Yes, all of these metal parts came in chromed or black-enameled versions.
But it seems the plungers were always chrome?
Quote from: EdTel on November 16, 2015, 09:44:09 PM
The buttons on my phone that has the handle are not chromed, but the ones on the phone without the handle do have chrome. Having said that though, I could not say whether the unchromed ones are original or not, but they are functional.
Well, as was remarked in this topic, many combinations of black and chrome parts have been observed, and appear all valid configurations. Perhaps some configuration were factory standard, and others field modifications by refurbishment or repair.
Quote
Amazing how much I have learned in one simple post. I think I'm going to like this forum :D
The fun is that not only the newcomers learn something from the postings and the ensuing discussions, but usually everyone.
Quote from: unbeldi on November 16, 2015, 07:45:06 PM
Hmm, interesting. Is it easy to remove the metal saddles? It never occurred to me to try that until now.
I haven't attempted to remove them but I imagine the four screws that hold the hook switch in screw into the blocks on top. They have to come off for the fixed Lift Handle to be mounted.
[I took a phone call before posting and then forgot about it]
Jack
Quote from: unbeldi on November 16, 2015, 08:15:37 PM
I was going to ask you about those areas, because they don't look like ordinary wear.
On chrome blocks there is a mark there as well. I'm not sure if it was caused by the handset or is a coating to prevent the handset from marking the chrome.
It would not surprise me if the black example was finished so to prevent the handset from removing the paint.
Jack
This auction (http://www.ebay.com/itm/262101072216) of a quite nice AE 40, which I think was made in the period WW-II to 1952, shows no lift feature, nor the holes for the handle. It also doesn't have the metal bands on the handset. It does show a number card that is on top of a anoter AE card of the large area kind, which was printed starting in ca. 1955, so the phone was probably refurbished after that time. Perhaps metal rings were removed in refurbishing because new ones were no longer made?
Quote from: unbeldi on November 20, 2015, 02:45:51 PM
It also doesn't have the metal bands on the handset.
I believe it does have metal bands but the bands are not grooved. I have seen un-grooved bands before but never
no bands.
Certainly no holes in the cradle blocks though.
Jack
Quote from: Jack Ryan on November 20, 2015, 05:34:25 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on November 20, 2015, 02:45:51 PM
It also doesn't have the metal bands on the handset.
I believe it does have metal bands but the bands are not grooved. I have seen un-grooved bands before but never no bands.
Certainly no holes in the cradle blocks though.
Jack
They made bakelite bands, like in the auction Unbeldi posted, but they are more like spacers than metal bands.
Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on November 20, 2015, 06:40:52 PM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on November 20, 2015, 05:34:25 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on November 20, 2015, 02:45:51 PM
It also doesn't have the metal bands on the handset.
I believe it does have metal bands but the bands are not grooved. I have seen un-grooved bands before but never no bands.
Certainly no holes in the cradle blocks though.
Jack
They made bakelite bands, like in the auction Unbeldi posted, but they are more like spacers than metal bands.
Thanks for that. I didn't realise there were Bakelite bands. So, there are always bands but some of them are plastic rather than metal. I assume the un-grooved bands are plastic.
Jack
Quote from: Jack Ryan on November 20, 2015, 07:04:03 PM
Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on November 20, 2015, 06:40:52 PM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on November 20, 2015, 05:34:25 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on November 20, 2015, 02:45:51 PM
It also doesn't have the metal bands on the handset.
I believe it does have metal bands but the bands are not grooved. I have seen un-grooved bands before but never no bands.
Certainly no holes in the cradle blocks though.
Jack
They made bakelite bands, like in the auction Unbeldi posted, but they are more like spacers than metal bands.
Thanks for that. I didn't realise there were Bakelite bands. So, there are always bands but some of them are plastic rather than metal. I assume the un-grooved bands are plastic.
Jack
Correct. In my opinion, the Bakelite bands look better than the metal ones on a black phone. The handsets on AE34s (type 34?) didn't use Bakelite bands, but the type 41 (on AE40s) did AFAIK.
Like this?
I'm not right at all. I found a handset with "plastic bands" and the bands appear to be part of the molding. They are made to look like bands without actually being bands (rather like many in the music industry today).
Sorry about confusing the issue.
Jack
Or what about this one that Celnout (Cliff) has for sale: http://www.ebay.com/itm/301776486429
Ok, so I have pulled out my AE 40s and the No.41 handsets to look again.
It's clear to me now that starting probably sometime in the 1950s, AE seems to have used new handset caps that could not accommodate any rings. Instead the area where the rings were is molded in such a way that just a very slight ridge exists of the width of the old rings. This shows up in pictures as those lines around the caps. I think this is also what Jack was referring to.
Therefore it makes sense that rings are not displayed in the parts catalogs of the 50s.
Or where the chrome versions still an option in the 50s?
Quote from: unbeldi on November 16, 2015, 01:21:00 PM
Here are two of the lift features of the AE 40. The set was manufactured between 1955 and 1958, by my 'guess'.
Shown are the molded grip features in the sides of the cradle posts, as well as the holes in the metal saddles on each cradle recess, I suppose they could be called a fulcrum.
I also looked at the set again, that has the grip hole in the apparently wrong position. Well, it turns out that only one side of the cradle has the hole. The others side is without it. So, this means the set was refurbished and received a new set of saddles, or at least one replacement, but of the wrong kind and mounted on the wrong side.
Quote from: unbeldi on November 24, 2015, 09:42:48 PM
Ok, so I have pulled out my AE 40s and the No.41 handsets to look again.
It's clear to me now that starting probably sometime in the 1950s, AE seems to have used new handset caps that could not accommodate any rings. Instead the area where the rings were is molded in such a way that just a very slight ridge exists of the width of the old rings. This shows up in pictures as those lines around the caps. I think this is also what Jack was referring to.
Therefore it makes sense that rings are not displayed in the parts catalogs of the 50s.
Or where the chrome versions still an option in the 50s?
You must have missed my post. I looked at one of the offending handsets and reported that the "ring" was a molded part of the cap.
This change appears to have happened around 1950 but the ringed version continued for the coloured Monophone. In 1951, both forms existed.
Regards
Jack
Quote from: unbeldi on November 24, 2015, 10:18:42 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on November 16, 2015, 01:21:00 PM
Here are two of the lift features of the AE 40. The set was manufactured between 1955 and 1958, by my 'guess'.
Shown are the molded grip features in the sides of the cradle posts, as well as the holes in the metal saddles on each cradle recess, I suppose they could be called a fulcrum.
I also looked at the set again, that has the grip hole in the apparently wrong position. Well, it turns out that only one side of the cradle has the hole. The others side is without it. So, this means the set was refurbished and received a new set of saddles, or at least one replacement, but of the wrong kind and mounted on the wrong side.
I haven't looked closely but I assumed that the blocks would simply swap sides to move the hole to the rear.
Jack
Nice AE 40's.... do they have their AE 50 counterparts?
Quote from: Jack Ryan on November 24, 2015, 10:24:46 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on November 24, 2015, 10:18:42 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on November 16, 2015, 01:21:00 PM
Here are two of the lift features of the AE 40. The set was manufactured between 1955 and 1958, by my 'guess'.
Shown are the molded grip features in the sides of the cradle posts, as well as the holes in the metal saddles on each cradle recess, I suppose they could be called a fulcrum.
I also looked at the set again, that has the grip hole in the apparently wrong position. Well, it turns out that only one side of the cradle has the hole. The others side is without it. So, this means the set was refurbished and received a new set of saddles, or at least one replacement, but of the wrong kind and mounted on the wrong side.
I haven't looked closely but I assumed that the blocks would simply swap sides to move the hole to the rear.
Jack
That's my assumption too, but I haven't bothered trying to remove the metal parts. I presume they come apart somehow when one removes the four screws from the inside housing (one on each side of each plunger hole.
RE: bands. Yes, I was only considering the black sets. I know the colored one continued the feature.
Oh my goodness! I just stumbled upon this topic. 4 pages of posts that I want to reply to every one of!
Blocks, Carry Bars and lifts:
I have no idea what proper names would be but I have usually referred to the most common ones that are one piece as a Carry Bar. By not calling it a Carry Handle it is better differentiated from the Butlers Handle. The lack of a Bar/Handle on a 40 that started this topic has what I usually refer to as Blocks. Blocks definitely were available without the hole for a Buttlers Handle initially. Either Blocks or a Carry Bar are a neccesity on a 40 because the hook switch screws into it from inside the phone. The blocks can be swapped from left to right side which moves the holes from closer to the rear to closer to the front. I believe closer to the rear is proper.
There were AE 40's with no Carry Bar or Buttlers Handle, just Blocks without holes. There is even a version of the 40 with NO finger indents in the sides to aid in carrying it around. It may not have ever been in regular production but I have seen an Ivory one, I think Gary Goff may be its owner.
I suspect that the progression quickly went from Blocks without holes, to Blocks with holes for a Butlers Handle and then to the more familiar Carry Bar. Looking at the Carry Bar it seems quite obvious that it was a quick redesign of the blocks to add an easy way to carry the phone around. The Bar sweeps back from the back edge of the blocks on each side in order to provide a bit more room to get your fingers underneath the bar. It doesn't look at all as though it was a part of the AE 40's original design but more like an after thought.
It is just a guess but I would think that the Carry Bar was into production and standard equipment on all 40's within a couple of years of the 40 being released. They were likely added to phones (upgraded) later on going through refurb in a lot of instances.
Handset Caps and Bands:
The type 38 handsets used on AE 34 and 35 phones (the predecesors to the 40 and 50) all had metal bands with most being painted black and a few getting the deluxe chrome treatment.
The type 41 handsets initially either had chromed bands or black painted brass bands just like the older type 38 handsets from 34 and 35 sets. The chrome bands carried on as the deluxe treatment for the life of the 40/50 production but there were a couple of changes to the non deluxe handset caps. The black metal banded type 41 handsets are quite rare. Remember, this phone came out right as WW2 was getting underway and while the UK, Australua, New Zealand and the UK were involved from September 1939 the USA would soon be involved as well. Metal wasn't to be wasted. Someone at AE quickly realized that the grooved look of the black metal bands could easily be cut into the handset caps eliminating the black painted brass band on the majority of 40's that were the basic models. This change was made quite quickly after the introduction of the 40/50 and then before long the basic model caps were again redesigned eliminating the cuting of the grooves. They changed to molding the caps in one piece to have the "layered look" which is by far the most common type of cap on basic (non banded) model 40's and 50's.
Plunger Buttons:
Here I dont know which came first. My guess is that WW2 again had an influence. Most buttons that I see were chrome regardless of whether the phone was to be basic or deluxe. But there are balck bakelite plungers out there and there are brass painted black plungers out there. Originally my thought was that the black bakelite buttons were a later cost saving item but I have seen some pretty old looking 40's that had bakelite buttons in them. So maybe black bakelite buttons on the basic sets and chromed brass buttons on the deluxe sets was the plan. Maybe once the war ended there was lots of brass now available and it just became easier to make them all from brass. No idea but all three scenarios exist.
All just my thoughts on the subject....
Terry
Quote from: AE_Collector on November 25, 2015, 12:19:45 AM
Blocks, Carry Bars and lifts:
I suspect that the progression quickly went from Blocks, to Blocks with holes for a Butlers Handle and then to the more familiar Carry Bar. Looking at the Carry Bar it seems quite obvious that it was a quick redesign of the blocks to add an easy way to carry the phone around. The Bar sweeps back from the back edge of the blocks on each side in order to provide a bit more room to get your fingers underneath the bar. It doesn't look at all as though it was a part of the AE 40's original design but more like an after thought.
It is just a guess but I would think that the Carry Bar was into production and standard equipment on all 40's within a couple of years of the 40 being released. They were likely added to phones (upgraded) later on going through refurb in a lot of instances.
There are not enough catalogues to get good time resolution but:
1940: Butler Lift Handle (likely an option) and handset bands
1944: Ditto
1950: Solid Lift Handle and no bands on poverty pack telephones. Bands for Coloured phones.
Certainly refurbs change the original phones making it difficult to form an accurate picture.
Quote
Handset Caps and Bands:
The type 41 handsets initially either had chromed bands or black painted brass bands just like the type 38 handsets. The chrome bands carried on as the deluxe treatment for the life of the 40/50 production but there were a couple of changes to the non deluxe handset caps. The black metal banded type 41 handsets are quite rare.
I would have to look more closly but I know I have both real bands and grooved caps.
Quote
Someone at AE quickly realized that the groved look of the black metal bands could easily be cut into the handset caps eliminating the black painted brass band on the majority of 40's that were the basic models. This change was made quite quickly after the introduction of the 40/50 and then before long the basic model caps were again redesigned eliminating the cuting of the grooves. They changed to molding the caps in one piece to have the "layered look" which is by far the most common type of cap on basic model 40's and 50's.
The catalogues don't support this timeline but I have no doubt that the sequence of events is correct. In 1944 the parts list still shows brass bands. Despite the shortage of metal during the war, it seems the brass bands were dropped after the war.
Quote
Plunger Buttons:
Here I dont know which came first. My guess is that WW2 again had an influence. Most buttons that I see were chrome irregardless of whether the phone was to be basic or deluxe. But there are balck bakelite plungers out there and there are brass painted black plungers out there. Originally my thought was that the black bakelite buttons were a later cost saving item but I have seen some pretty old looking 40's that had bakelite buttons in them. So maybe black bakelite buttons on the basic sets and chromed brass buttons on the deluxe sets was the plan. Maybe once the war ended there was lots of brass now available and it just became easier to make them all from brass. No idea but all three scenarios exist.
I haven't taken enough notice - I'll have to start. Plastic plungers were used elsewhere in the world as a cost saving exercise - usually in the 1950s.
Nothing is ever straight forward is it and being in Australia I dont have the sample space you have.
Jack
Going by the patent record, the history is quite different, but this doesn't mean that all patents were implemented immediately.
The fixed-bridge bar finger lift was actually patented just after the first patent of the telephone type itself. At that time also two types of butler handles were published, the well-known one, and a T-shaped variety.
The four grip depressions on the side were not in the original patent, but appeared in another version shortly after.
I also would not classify the band-less black handsets as 'poverty' issuance. I think by 1950, the chrome bands simply looked out-of-synch with modern design styles. Old-fashioned Art Deco was out of style after WW-II, and I have been rather surprised that the AE 40 even lasted so long, even into the early 1960s. I think this speaks of the exceptional quality of design for this phone.
Quote from: unbeldi on November 25, 2015, 10:59:28 AM
Going by the patent record, the history is quite different, but this doesn't mean that all patents were implemented immediately.
I agree - and often what was patented was not implemented at all.
Quote
The fixed-bridge bar finger lift was actually patented just after the first patent of the telephone type itself. At that time also two types of butler handles were published, the well-known one, and a T-shaped variety.
The four grip depressions on the side were not in the original patent, but appeared in another version shortly after.
Yes and as I said earlier, there are not enough catalogues to get an accurate time line. However, if a feature is not listed in any known catalogue or replacement parts listings there is a pretty good chance (but not certainty) that the feature was not offered.
Quote
I also would not classify the band-less black handsets as 'poverty' issuance. I think by 1950, the chrome bands simply looked out-of-synch with modern design styles.
I wouldn't normally either it was more a comment on the way the feature was described previously.
Quote
Old-fashioned Art Deco was out of style after WW-II, and I have been rather surprised that the AE 40 even lasted so long, even into the early 1960s. I think this speaks of the exceptional quality of design for this phone.
I agree; it was a well designed and executed telephone - albeit brittle. I'm not sure when production stopped but AE said manufacturing had been discontinued in December 1957. Canadian and Italian production may have continued past that date - I don't know.
Jack
Quote from: Jack Ryan on November 25, 2015, 05:15:09 PM
I agree; it was a well designed and executed telephone - albeit brittle. I'm not sure when production stopped but AE said manufacturing had been discontinued in December 1957. Canadian and Italian production may have continued past that date - I don't know.
Jack
It was discontinued in Chicago that year, but at Northlake they certainly made them. I have a Northlake set that is clearly dated, with a date stamp (!) in 1958: 10-58-11
I remember reading that "discontinued" statement in a catalog and I was confused too by it at first. Didn't we discuss that recently too?
Quote from: unbeldi on November 25, 2015, 05:26:27 PM
It was discontinued in Chicago that year, but at Northlake they certainly made them. I have a Northlake set that is clearly dated, with a date stamp (!) in 1958: 10-58-11
I remember reading that "discontinued" statement in a catalog and I was confused too by it at first. Didn't we discuss that recently too?
There was a discussion and I probably bookmarked it to follow up "later". According to the catalogue statement, parts were still manufactured after that date. However, reports of the death of the AE 40 may well have been exaggerated.
Jack
One interesting aspect is that the sets made in Northlake don't show any patents anymore on the decal, at least not those that I have seen. But I don't know if those sets are always date-stamped.
Quote from: unbeldi on November 25, 2015, 05:48:50 PM
One interesting aspect is that the sets made in Northlake don't show any patents anymore on the decal, at least not those that I have seen. But I don't know if those sets are always date-stamped.
I'm afraid I've only learnt enough to realise how much I don't know.
There are some AE 40s with original felt bottoms - where did they come from?
Some have a markedly different code (not starting with 40 or 41) - what does that mean?
Then there is the model with a button near the cradle that issues a pulse from a (high voltage) local battery. It serves the function of a magneto. I haven't seen this documented anywhere.
I don't think the hook latch models aren't catalogued either.
and so it goes on...
Jack
Quote from: Jack Ryan on November 25, 2015, 06:04:52 PM
I'm afraid I've only learnt enough to realise how much I don't know.
I would call that the power of knowledge.
There was discussion on here awile back about the felt covering. I cant recall now if a consensus was reached or not. My gut feeling was that it was a solution to the rubber shortage during the war since the 40's used a fair bit of rubber in the base ring. But I am only guessing.
There are some AE 40's with the little auxilary button up near the cradle. Just like the line 3 button on AE 47 sets. And there are AE 80's with a similar option button by the cradle. If there was an add on to make the 40 usable as a magneto set using this button, I would think it was just one of many optional uses of the button. I have heard the 40's with this button referred to as 41 sets and the 80 variants with the button referred to as 81 sets.
Terry
Quote from: AE_Collector on November 25, 2015, 08:57:11 PM
There was discussion on here awile back about the felt covering. I cant recall now if a consensus was reached or not. My gut feeling was that it was a solution to the rubber shortage during the war since the 40's used a fair bit of rubber in the base ring. But I am only guessing.
The felt bottomed AE 40s I have come across seem to be much newer than WW2 - closer to the last production items.
Quote
There are some AE 40's with the little auxilary button up near the cradle. Just like the line 3 button on AE 47 sets. And there are AE 80's with a similar option button by the cradle. If there was an add on to make the 40 usable as a magneto set using this button, I woukd think it was just one if many optional uses of the button. I have heard tge 40's with this button referred to as 41 sets and the 80 variants with the button referred to as 81 sets.
There were probably multiple uses for the button but none of those uses appear in catalogues. I myself have only seen this button used to drop an indicator at a manual exchange.
There were AE 80s with a button but I think that was the end of the similarity. The AE 80 button might have had multiple uses as well but I have only seen the 81 version where it was part of the hook latch.
There were 41 type AE 40s as well but this did not relate to a button - I don't recall ever seeing a 41 type AE 40 with a button but there probably were some. The type 41 AE 40 used the later high impedance (and smaller) ringer. The AE 40 didn't use a button in its hook latch - it used a lever/switch around a hook plunger. I haven't seen that in a catalogue either.
Regards
Jack
Quote from: Jack Ryan on November 25, 2015, 10:07:38 PM
There were 41 type AE 40s as well but this did not relate to a button - I don't recall ever seeing a 41 type AE 40 with a button but there probably were some. The type 41 AE 40 used the later high impedance (and smaller) ringer. The AE 40 didn't use a button in its hook latch - it used a lever/switch around a hook plunger. I haven't seen that in a catalogue either.
Regards
Jack
Are you referring to when the base numbering changed from L40xx numbering to L41xx numbering? Do you feel that the change in ringer types corresponded with that portion of the numbering change?
The reference to 41 sets may well have been something that the old timers that I worked with when I was in my 20's got in the habit of calling the 40 with the extra switch rather than an official AE model number at that time. I was lucky enough to work in the PABX department when I only had a couple of years in as an installer. One use for these sets was as stations on the old AE 19-B5 or 22-X PABX's. I am really losing my memory apparently but I think it was that stations needed a grounding button to seize an outside line but could dial an internal station or the PBX operator. Not to be confused with later ground start PBX trunks, this was how that particular PBX worked. Most of them that we removed and junked after conversion to more modern electronic systems had AE80's on them with the extra button or just a field installed button drilled into the case but occasionally we ran into the 40 sets with the button. Maybe the 40 had to be ordered from AE with the correct button configuration or maybe it had several optional configurations.
Terry
Quote from: AE_Collector on November 25, 2015, 10:30:27 PM
Are you referring to when the base numbering changed from L40xx numbering to L41xx numbering? Do you feel that the change in ringer types corresponded with that portion of the numbering change?
Yes, there is a very high correlation between the base numbering and the type of ringer. The 40 series had the older large ringer and the 41 series had the new smaller ringer. I forget the ringer codes at the moment. The coding system changed at the same time so the the new 41 codes are the same as the AE 47 codes and can, for the most part, be decoded.
Quote
I think it was stations needed a grounding button to seize an outside line but coukd dial an internal station or the PBX operator. Not to be confused with later ground start PBX trunks, this was how that particular PBX worked.
That is the way many non North American PABXs work; the button either recalls the operator or dial tone. I haven't seen any AE telephones configured this way - because of low initial numbers, they might be pretty rare now.
Quote
Most of them that we removed and junked after conversion to more modern systems
Another reason they might be difficult to find...
Quote
Maybe the 40 had to be ordered from AE with the correct button configuration or maybe it had several optional configurations.
Most likely.
Still, the only use I have found is the "kick" function I described earlier. Perhaps there were more of these or perhaps I am just lucky. Have you come across this function before?
Regards
Jack
Quote from: Jack Ryan on November 26, 2015, 12:34:50 AM
Still, the only use I have found is the "kick" function I described earlier. Perhaps there were more of these or perhaps I am just lucky. Have you come across this function before?
Regards
Jack
I have never heard of using the little button by the cradle of some 40 sets as a way to use the set on a Magneto line but that doesn't mean anything. I only worked in big city environments so didn't see much of the rural type equipment setups. What you describe sounds like a viable arrangement.
I did see this little button (and the similar button on AE47 sets) used to get outside dial tone on old AE electro-mechanical PBX's AND for button / buzzer setups between boss and secretary etc.
Terry