Part Swapping: How do you feel

[benhutcherson]

This is something that I've never really seen discussed on here, or so much in relation to telephones. I've seen quite a bit of discussion about it in other fields of collecting in which I'm involved, and so I was curious as to how other collectors feel about it in relation to telephones.

As you all know, virtually all Western Electric parts are date coded from the factory. A telephone would typically have originally had parts which were very close in date codes.

Through the course of field repair and refurbishment, they were often fitted with parts simply to make the telephone work in the best way possible, with no regard as to originality.

I've sensed from many posts here that many of the posters don't particularly like these repair/refurbished phones, often dubbing them "Frankenphones." There's also often some discussion of replacing parts with those from a stockpile or wherever with parts closer to the date code on the base.

Personally, I love the so-called frankenphones. To me, they're a testament to the ingenuity and frugality of the Bell system. I find it fascinating that, even in 1982, one could receive a brand new, shiny phone from Bell which had parts in it that dated back to the 1950s.

So, with that in mind, I can't bear to change any parts on a telephone I have, unless possibly it's the difference between a working and non-working telephone. In those cases, I will do my best to match the same st

So, with that in mind, here's my question to the membership-

Do you change around parts on your telephones in order to make a more desirable(date matching) telephone?

Do you change parts on a non-working telephone to make a working telephone without regard to date codes or proper part styles?

Do you change parts to make a non-working telephone work with careful regard to match the date code or at least the proper style correct to when the telephone was originally made?

Do change parts to make a non-working telephone work with careful regard to match the date code or at least style of the part that's being replaced

Do you, under no circumstances, change any parts in a telephone?

Thanks for your input, and I hope that this provokes some interesting discussion.

Do you change around date coded parts

[Dan/Panther]

I for one see no problem with replacing parts to get a phone that is as close to the original configuration as is possible.
Caps, Transmitter and receiver elements, dials, cords, whatever, as long as the part is correct for the phone. The only issue would be, what to do about the red painted refurb dates. I would even go as far as to say, if the phone had been put back to it's original state and no damage was done in the process, removing the red refurb dates, and calling it a restored model XXX would not hurt it at all. IMHO. A hard core collector may disagree, but if done properly how would they know ?
Where I would have a problem is replacing parts, that were not original to that particular date, or model.
If you found a complete soft plastic 54 Red 500, with a Red coiled handset cord, and later ran across an original gray cord, wouldn't you replace the red cord ?
I see no difference with all other parts.
D/P

[Phonesrfun]

I have about 100 phones and probably 2 of them I care enough about to be date specific.  One is an early 1951 balck 500 with the two piece network.  The other is my pink Princess.

For the most part, I do not pay much attention to the dates, but I do try to keep things generally in the right "period".  For instance, I will try to keep a fat coiled cord on an early phone, and so forth.

Phones were refurbished so often, there is an endless possibility of dates, styles, and options to deal with.  I think I would go madder than I already am if I were to get so anal as to trying to pin down exact dates.

[benhutcherson]

"A hard core collector may disagree, but if done properly how would they know"

That, to me, is the rub.

Telephones were made, used, repaired, and used some more.

If done "properly", I would consider the telephone a complete, made up, and fabricated sham with the intent to deceive whoever bought it.

Sorry for the harsh words, but why on earth would you do this in the first place unless they were doing it with the intent to deceive.

I have no problem whatsoever with a well-done restoration. As they say, though, it's only original once, and I will pay a significant premium over a select condition, fully original piece over a restored one.

Thus, I believe that restorations should always be marked, or at least left with some tell-tale sign, that it has been restored.

I think you'll find this to be the case in most areas of collecting. It's true in the fields in which I actively collect(including trains and watches).

In fact, the Train Collectors Association(TCA) has some very strict guidelines regarding this. A restored piece offered by sale by a TCA member must be permanently marked as being restored, and can have its condition classified as being no higher than "C-4, good."

Anyone who fails to follow these can face some pretty serious consequences, including having their membership irreversibly revoked. If you're serious about buying and selling trains at the high end, that's as good as a death sentence to your business.

[Dan/Panther]

I think deceive IS a harsh word.
If the item is clearly promoted as " RESTORED" that pretty much covers any deception. If you are buying a  restored item, It is a "gimmy" that it's probably not all original factory, as issued parts, that you may have replced damaged or non original to the era parts. However if you promote it as ALL ORIGINAL, then you've deceived.
Restored all matching numbers is not a deception.
Original all matching numbers IS deception.
If you are interested in an all original phone, I would buy a dirty needed cleaned up version, chances are that is original.
If you are lookingb to buy a AS NEW vintage phone, I would assume it's not all original parts, unless the seller specifies it is. When in doubt ASK the seller; "Is it all original parts to that particular phone ?"
As far as me personally deceiving someone, If I were to sell it, it would be clear as far as what was being offered.
I replace parts for my personal collection, and do not plan on selling them.

D/P

[Dan/Panther]

Ben;
One more point, about trains.
I adhere a sticker to the inside of every locomotive that I retsore, and the sticker clearly says; "Another Fine Custom Restoration By-Dan"
No written, or implied deception.
D/P

[jsowers]

When I restore a phone, it's not with the intent to sell it, but of course you never know what will happen to it since we all know the phones will outlive us like they did their original owners.

I concentrate on what will show on the outside and don't change internal components if their dates don't match. Cords, plastics and dials I like to have correct and like original if at all possible, or at least all soft plastic if that's the period the phone is from (and it's not a 1959 phone with both kinds). If the date matches, fine, but the color needs to match first. I'm not a big stickler on all the dates matching. It's nice if it does, but I don't go out of my way to make them match. That could take forever.

I have many phones without R stamps that have obviously been refurbished, so that's not going to be the case every time. I don't like the idea of taking the R stamps off. I do agree if you're going to sell the phone, you need to tell prospective buyers that parts have been replaced to make the phone work or look more original.

One thing I do is make a photographic record of how the phone came to me, complete with all the date stamps. So if anyone wanted to see what it looked like before I worked on it, I have all the pictures.

[Dennis Markham]

As far as phones that I collect, it's nice to have one that has all the parts matching.  But if they don't it isn't that big of deal.  The fact that the handset elements have a different date then the dial for instance isn't a cause for concern.  After all, dated parts that were changed are still original Western Electric parts and show a history of the telephone.  If I am lucky enough to have one that is all date matching that is just icing on the cake.

If I had a phone (let's say a W.E. Model 500) that had all the parts matching but the T1 transmitter was wrong and I came upon the correct date on another phone, I wouldn't think twice about swapping it.  There would be no intent to deceive anyone because the phone would be for my personal enjoyment.

What I have a problem with, and I believe it taking place in the phone world is someone altering the vermilion date.  Recently there was discussion on one or both of the club list serves about the proper color of the vermilion paint.  There were also stamps sold on ebay that would allow one to stamp a color code or date on a dial.  I think that is true deception.  I wouldn't sell a fellow phone collector a phone that I had altered to have it appear to be something the part was not.

I like to use the word "refurbish" rather than "restore".  I had some stickers printed up early in my refurbishing "career" similar to Dan's.  The word restore is on the sticker.  I prefer refurbish because I don't restore it to the point that one cannot tell it from new.  Refurbishing to me means I made it as nice as possible without painting and there is no question that it is not new.

But to change around some dated parts on one's personal collection is OK by me if that's what floats your boat.  Having a couple parts that are time-period correct but not matching does not diminish the value of the phone.  And who knows, sometimes part of the phone can be dated in the later months of one year and the other parts come from the first part of the next year.  It's original but not matching.

[benhutcherson]

Dan,

Please understand that I'm not implying that you're intentionally trying to deceive.

Consider this, though:

You restore something perfectly, and sell it with full disclosure as such, including any replacement parts and anything else of the like.

What happens, however, when the person to whom you sell it then again sells it as "all original date matching."

Unless some evidence is left, somewhere on down the line what was a restored phone can suddenly become "All original."

500 sets are still a relatively up and coming area of collecting, and thus "raw" finds are still very common.

Part of my motivation in doing this is to, hopefully, get people talking now rather than 10, 15, 20 years in the future.

I'd hate for 500 sets to become like railroad pocket watches, where many that are one the market now have passed through the hands of half a dozen collectors and have had cases, dials, hands, and even major mechanical parts to the point where very few appear as they actually would have when in use.

[bingster]

Sometimes with old radios, you'll find a little card or slip of paper under the chassis listing repairs made in the past, and with watches, there's a universal practice of watchmakers leaving their initials or a code etched inside the case to show the watch passed through their hands. 

Is this the sort of thing you'd suggest be done with telephones?  Just something to nail down the phone's history?

For me, if I have a date-matching phone, I keep it that way.  If I have a non-matching phone, then I have no problem swapping it's parts with similar parts of other phones.  Personally, though, I don't have a big problem with phones being made date-matching by a collector (although I've never done it myself, since my collection is so small).  But that's just me.

[Greg G.]

My understanding from the context in which I've seen it used, is that a "Frankenphone" is a mish-mash of different parts from different dates collected from several nonworking phones to make one working phone with a wide range of different dates on the parts.  Seems that many phones that were "refurbished" by phone companies are like that.  I would be perfectly happy with a phone that had all matching dates that were taken from other phones, as long as they were color-matched and they didn't try to use parts from a WE in an AE and vice-versa.

My first attempt at restoration was a 59 beige WE 500 that had already been "frankenized" by the phone company with a 72 9C dial, a 72 case, 72 caps, 70 handset, 61 receiver and 67 transmitter. I put in a 59 dial in it, but hadn't planned on hunting for date-matching on anything else, although I would like to replace the cover.

If I sold it, I would certainly inform them of it's history and what I've done with it.  That's nearly automatic, as anybody who asks about my phones I bore to death with details of my collection and each phone's history.  Even people walking down the street, I call out to them and say "HEY, come see my phones!"  As they start to walk faster, I do too, when they start to run, I run after them and start shouting my spiel about my phones.

[bingster]

I meant to say something about "frankenphones" and forgot.  To me that's a term that usually denotes a phone with parts from various manufacturers, or with parts from the same manufacturer but the wrong era.  For example, a Stromberg 12XX with a WE F series handset.  Or a 500 with a North handset, or a 202 with an AE dial.  That sort of thing. 

[Dan/Panther]

Bingster;
I agree with your version of a frankenphone.

In the auto collecting world, they try to maintain the serial numbers for all parts that are serialed to maintain ORIGINALITY, but things like Winshields, and Glass, headlight rims, seats and the like are desired but if a seller says the car is all original, there is really no way to know that for sure, even if a paper trail exsists, suppose some how he damaged the steering wheel, is there anyway to say for certain it was changed ? What about normal wear and tear parts, brake drums, shocks, radiator. A rebuilt radio, is it  no longer considered original to the car, or would someone rather pay $100,00.00 for a 57b Chevy with a radio that's original, but doesn't work. ? as long as all parts are OEM, and period correct, that is basically what is the main concern.
JMHO.
D/P

[bellsystemproperty]

When I get phones I don't really care that much. It's fun to get an all matching phone, but if it is not it's not a big deal. I care more if the phone operates correctly. What I don't like is when people buy good rotary phones, even commonmodular 500's, and destroy them for parts. If I need a part, I don't get a whole phone. Instead I try to find the part individually as to not hurt a good phone.

[bwanna]

ben brings up a good point with regard to "tainting" the pool of phones for future collectors. we like to restore or refurb to our own particular preferences. which imho is ok, because we own these sets for our enjoyment. so i guess i would say it is up to future collectors to do their research & learn to identify what is "correct" or "original" for themselves.

just like vintage cars. some like all original, some don't mind aftermarket parts. as far as original, there really isn't a way to discern if all parts are original to that particular car or are off another same year/model.

personally, i like the history in a "multi yeared" set. however, i would not have a problem in building a dates matching set with say, my birthday date. i do hate to see a modular shell on a '50's chassis.

i also hate lamps & clocks & planters. those modifications should be illegal