Here is a wonderful find in Western Electric's 302 lineage. The last metal 302 that I ever saw was 1/42, January 1942. This is clearly dated 7 31 41, July 31 1941. Not sure what the 21790 in vermilion is. But it's Thermoplastic.
It is bittersweet as the shell has shrunk so it will not fit on the base. You can see how the sides have shrunk in and there are stress cracks like you see in a color 302 handset on the front and sides. They do not go through, but they are there. It does add to the character of the phone that otherwise is very shiny.
I added a IV41 5H dial, that fits no problem with the shrinkage. Odd that the 5H is dated quarter/year in 1941? There was no handset so added one with 6/41 elements.
Doug
Very nice, Doug. I especially like the dial card. I've never seen a housing marked in that manner. Is that housing marked with an H7 mounting code?
I have seen several pre-early war plastic sets, all had similar numbers Serial numbers?.Never recorded them to see if they were the same.I do not remember if any one of them was not crackedRobby
Quote from: Dennis Markham on January 28, 2012, 04:55:29 PM
Very nice, Doug. I especially like the dial card. I've never seen a housing marked in that manner. Is that housing marked with an H7 mounting code?
Dennis...its a H1....dial card is from Waltham MA just outside of Boston....Doug
Wow! Where do you always manage to find such prizes?? Never seen the like.
I've always wondered about that second number, too. I've got one stamped "81441 26868." Obviously, the first part is the date (Aug 14, 1941), but the second part? I dunno.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=330.0
Darrin.....at least mine didn't crack, but it still is really useless. Does your fit on the base with the crack
Anyone know if it is possible to cut the 1/4 inch ledge that goes around the metal base off. I have another 6/41 base that I'd be willing to use an an experiment to see if it would be worth it. It is just such a cool find, I hate to give up on it. Any ideas??...Doug
We should create a list of these numbers with their dates and see if they're in order. My ivory 302 housing, dated 32342, has the number 60004 on it.
I have heard of people cutting a small triangle shape piece from each corner of the base and bending the "ledge" in slightly to increase clearance. I have not tried it but if you have a junk base why not? let us know the results!
Doug, I know Chuck Hensley has mentioned grinding the corners of the base to allow the shrunken housings to fit over the base. I have done the contrary (which he does not recommend) and ground out some of the plastic on he inside edge, especially on the corners to relieve the shrinking. I try and avoid grinding too much (using a Dremmel tool with a grinder bit), just enough to allow clearance.
I know there are two schools of thought on this situation. On a non-black housing it is difficult to think of grinding away the plastic---for instance on something rare like your blue 302, but for black housings---which are plentiful----I've gone ahead and done that. Often it doesn't take much. Examine where it's rubbing against the base. Sometimes it's on the sides rather than the corners.
I have not done anything like this, but I imagine you would want to drizzle a bit of thin superglue into the stress cracks to keep them from spreading.
Bill
Dennis.....Mark Scola used to do the same with the color 302s so they would not crack in the future. The more I look at mine, I don't think it was ever used. The shine is perfect, but all around top of the sides (make sense, the top area of the shell just above the sides) has small hair line cracks that do not go through and are not very deep. My guess these were caused by the shrinkage. They look more like tiny scratches than cracks. Some I can hit with a fingernail, most I cannot and glide over them.
This is a once in a lifetime find, so I don't want to damage it. I'd rather try the base as I have more than one with the same dates. Any information about grinding down the edges of the lips of the base would be appreciated.
If you look at the sides of my shell, you can see it is schrinking inwards on the sides as well. I am hoping if I can get the edges off the base, I can get it working.
Any ideas are greatly appreciated.....Doug
Quote from: deedubya3800 on January 29, 2012, 01:21:06 PM
We should create a list of these numbers with their dates and see if they're in order. My ivory 302 housing, dated 32342, has the number 60004 on it.
Darrin, does yours have metal hookswitch cover.
deedubya....I think yours has a painted metal cover, correct?.....thanks...Doug
Quote from: Doug Rose on January 29, 2012, 01:01:19 PM
Darrin.....at least mine didn't crack, but it still is really useless. Does your fit on the base with the crack
It does. I've since closed the crack with superglue, and it still fits well (not too tight). It does have the metal hookswitch cover on it.
I have started grinding down the corners on all of my 302 thermoplastic phones since they have serious shrinkage issues. Here are some photos. I still need to smooth the grind cut with a fine file.
Steve
Hmmmm....I like it! Looks like I might even be able to accomplish it. Might!!
Stupid question....do you just attach a grinding attachment to your drill?
How long does it take to grind down a corner?
Many thanks. I appreciate your post...Doug
I've only had a couple of colored sets that bind seriously. Rather than grind, I use a Dremel tool with cutoff wheel to cut a slot in the lip at each corder. This gives enough space to bend the lip back a bit using duck-billed pliers. Simple and quick.
You can always grind later, if the shrinking continues.
As Dennis observed, I don't like to remove any plastic from the shell. I use a bench grinder a take off a little material from each corner of the base. Then I touch-up the bare areas with flat black Rustoleum. From the sides it is difficult to see the modification. From a tops-down view you can notice the shell corner are a little thinner. The corners have always been the source of tightness, so I haven't been faced with the problem trying to fix sides.
Chuck
Chuck, I plan to use your method on the next 302 I modify. It sounds simple enough and maintains the integrity of the housing. I've only ground the plastic on a few black 302's so far but held my breath on each one. One slip of the Dremmel tool during the grinding and damage can occur that wasn't there prior to the modification.
Quote from: cihensley@aol.com on January 31, 2012, 09:22:08 PM
As Dennis observed, I don't like to remove any plastic from the shell. I use a bench grinder a take off a little material from each corner of the base. Then I touch-up the bare areas with flat black Rustoleum. From the sides it is difficult to see the modification. From a tops-down view you can notice the shell corner are a little thinner. The corners have always been the source of tightness, so I haven't been faced with the problem trying to fix sides.
Chuck:
I have some grinding bits for my drill that I have never used. Do you think this will work? About how long does it take to grind one corner down. I am a raw rookie at this.
I appreciate your help....Doug
Doug:
On a bench grinder it takes only a few minutes for each corner. I don't see any reason that you could not do it with a grinding bit in a drill motor. It will take longer, but I don't know how long. Holding the base in a vice should shorten the time.
Chuck
thanks Chuck....I will get to it this weekend. I appreciate you sharing the knowledge!! I love this phone and I want to bring it back to life....Doug
I ground down the corners using a bench grinder and it took about fifteen minutes. While I was at it I ground down the other protrusions that are on each side. Often the back of a colored phone is pushed out further on one side of the line cord entrance due to the protrusion. My experience is if you don't do something like this because you don't see the need at that time, you will have a cracked case. I pulled a green 302 out of service around 1970 on an out order. The case moved easily on and off and I never gave it another thought. It took 8 years before it cracked in the typical "half moon" crack. To me the shells are too valuable to risk the damage. You can pick up a 302 base for next to nothing but not the shell.
Just my opinion. By the way, this Green 302 shown in the previous photo is my replacement that I finally found for the cracked green 302.
Steve
Steve...thanks for the info, I'll try it this weekend. I do want to keep all the dates the same, so I will use the original base. I will practice first on an extra.....thanks again....Doug
I am working on the 41 Thermo today, there is good news and there is not so good news. The good news is I used both ideas from Steve, Chuck and Paul. I ground all the corners down as Steve had show. This really went quite fast. I secured it in my vice and ground the corners down in no time with my ancient drill with a grinding bit. It was better but still not there. I used my big dykes and bend the lip in places where it rubbled together and Voila....It fit on the base with no issues!! Just slid on and off with no force. I touched up the grind holes like Chuck stated with my Sharpie paint pen. When it dries I'll rub it down to make it match. That's the good news.
Bad news is the dial was really in there snug and it looked like there were small hairlines all around the edges. They could only been seen from insdie the phone. Honestly I was going to ignore it and take my chances, but the dial would not dial out correctly, when it did break dial tone at all. I took me well over a 1/2 hours to finally get the dial out. When I did all the hairline seems to disappear before my eyes. Those hairlines were actually tiny cracks all around the dial.
I am on a break as I have been at it for three hours on this guy. Here are the pics of the base. I am very happy so far....Doug
Doug,
2 options come to mind on the dial. You could sand it down or the other possibility is to use a WE # 6 dial as it is slightly smaller. Of course based on the dates on your phone it would be around 10 years newer.
Just some thoughts.
Steve
Steve....I did consider the #6 dial, but this 41 5H dial was dated correctly. The was really no way I was going to get in in without damage and I certainly dd not want to damage this. SSSSSooooooo I went with a dial blank. Slid right in with no issues. I had had this for awhile and it took me forever to find it with my great filing/storage system!!
It is a complete, WORKING manual phone! All dates are matching so I really can't be too upset with the way this turned out. I would have rather had the dial, but I am also very partial to manual sets as well.
Steve, Paul and Chuck....thank you all for your input. I am pleasantly surprised I didn't crack the shell. Patience is not my middle name. But this now slides on and off with ease.
At the moment I have no WE cloth cords to install on it, so I'll wait until I find some.
Doug
It came out very nice Doug.
Chuck
Doug
That's a beauty. I have a 10/42 (all dates match) thermoplastic manual 302 like this which I am really pleased with. Good job with this phone - you should be proud.
Thanks guys....Doug
Doug,
What a great innovative solution which keeps it authentic and looks great??
Nice Job.
Steve
Quote from: sesjrs on February 06, 2012, 12:03:42 PM
Doug,
What a great innovative solution which keeps it authentic and looks great??
Nice Job.
Steve
thanks Steve....I appreciate all your help. I am quite please with the results. Cloth cords will make it a winner....Doug
Quote from: Doug Rose on February 05, 2012, 12:56:28 PM
Steve....I did consider the #6 dial, but this 41 5H dial was dated correctly. The was really no way I was going to get in in without damage and I certainly dd not want to damage this. SSSSSooooooo I went with a dial blank. Slid right in with no issues. I had had this for awhile and it took me forever to find it with my great filing/storage system!!
It is a complete, WORKING manual phone! All dates are matching so I really can't be too upset with the way this turned out. I would have rather had the dial, but I am also very partial to manual sets as well.
Steve, Paul and Chuck....thank you all for your input. I am pleasantly surprised I didn't crack the shell. Patience is not my middle name. But this now slides on and off with ease.
At the moment I have no WE cloth cords to install on it, so I'll wait until I find some.
Doug
If anyone is interested, it is for sale on eBay or feel free to make me an offer....Doug
http://www.ebay.com/itm/290673669302
I hope you don't mind Doug but I've changed the title of this thread from Thermoplastic WE 302 July 1941!!! to Modifications of 302 Bases to Prevent Thermoplastic Shells from Cracking since that is where the discussion went.
I thought it became a very good discussion of this topic complete with lots of pictures so I changed the title to make it easier to find and I made it a "sticky" to keep it at the top of the Collector's Corner board. Hopefully if there is more discussion on this topic it can be added here so it becomes an invaluable reference to help people decide what to do to preserve their coloured Thermoplastic 302's.
Terry
Thanks for changing the thread name, made it easier to find it.
I just picked up one of my dream phones at the Southern California phone show. I got a Peking Red 302. No cracks in the base. Only very minor cracks in the transmitter cap. Dates matching 10-53 on the base, 8/9-53 on the handset. The seller told me the case was a little snug, yup, too snug for me sleep well at night at the price I spent. The existing base it trimmed a bit.
From the consensus here I see that trimming the base does not deter the value of the set. I was going to dremell the base corners down a bit more or notch them so the cover slips on and off easily. I'll post before and after photos later.
Russ....absolutely beautiful. I don't think there is a better color than a the WE Pekin Red. Your phone is stunning!....Doug
Beautiful phone, Russ! Odd card, though. Tidewater was a Virginia independent that used North equipment. It's interesting that it wound up on a Western set.
Here are the before and after photos.
The cover was very firm and rubbed the base. 1st and 2nd photo = before.
I used the dremmel with a rotary cutter to cut a thin slot in the corner. 4th photo
Then used the needle nose pliers to bend the two parts together. 3rd photo
Then lightly sanded with the dremmel sander.
Now it fits just like when it was new in 1953.
It's ready for another 59 years!
I really like that solution, Russ. Some methods of relieving the corner involve practically removing the corner, but this is very mild by comparison. Great idea.
I've never relieved the base before, I usually very carefully remove material from the inside of the housing. Does it really matter, if you take it from the base, or the housing, they are a matched set, and either way it takes from the originality, but a slight trimming of the inside of the case, seems so less obvious, and least evasive.
D/P
I've removed material from the case before too. However, I think I am totally in favor of the method of cutting material out of the metal base for two reasons. First is that when the material is sanded or ground out of the plastic shell. the remaining material is thinner and probably less able to take any amount of strain on it.
Second, the metal bases are generally in abundant supply, whereas the shells are not! I kind of like the modification to the base better than grinding on the shell.
Bill;
On the inside corners of the 302 cases are bumps at each side. I use a dremmal and smooth these pumps out. It's a raised spot, and all I do is make it flat with the rest of the case so it's just as thick as the original case, I'm just removing excess material.
D/P
Dan -
I'm not sure that WE's manufacturing engineers would be so crude or so careless as to leave excess material with no purpose. It took some fiddling with the mold to put those raised areas there. I have no specific knowledge, but I bet that the extra material is put there specifically to strengthen the corner. After, it was relatively common for the customer to drop a phone, and in the day when Ma Bell owned all the phones, and replacements were free to the customer, a broken case would be an expensive thing for the company. A daub of extra material at the corners may have paid for itself many times over.
These days, as collectors, we are much less likely to drop our phones, of course. But I have still gone with the mod to the base, rather than the case.
Just my thoughts ....
Bill (another one)
Quote from: Bill on March 13, 2012, 01:39:34 PM
Dan -
I'm not sure that WE's manufacturing engineers would be so crude or so careless as to leave excess material with no purpose. It took some fiddling with the mold to put those raised areas there. I have no specific knowledge, but I bet that the extra material is put there specifically to strengthen the corner. After, it was relatively common for the customer to drop a phone, and in the day when Ma Bell owned all the phones, and replacements were free to the customer, a broken case would be an expensive thing for the company. A daub of extra material at the corners may have paid for itself many times over.
These days, as collectors, we are much less likely to drop our phones, of course. But I have still gone with the mod to the base, rather than the case.
Just my thoughts ....
Bill (another one)
My thoughts about that, if you pay $500.00 for a phone and then drop it, you deserve to have it cracked. Modifying the base permanently ruins it. Modifying the case, if done properly, most will never notice it.
D/P
This thread is perfect for me! The 100% dates-matching 1951 ivory I just got in is real tight on its base, and that's just what it needs to continue looking (fairly) good. Thanx! :)
[/quote]
My thoughts about that, if you pay $500.00 for a phone and then drop it, you deserve to have it cracked.
D/P
[/quote]
I didn't mean that post to sound so cold blooded.
What I meant to convey as a message, was more along the lines of "Gheez people be careful with these rare vintage items, they aren't making them anymore."
D/P
Oh great.. now I'm afraid of my thermoplastic 302 splitting apart. hahaha!
Quote from: Bingles on August 17, 2012, 07:49:53 PM
Oh great.. now I'm afraid of my thermoplastic 302 splitting apart. hahaha!
No Joke, they will shrink. and crack, under certain conditions, which I've not been told exactly what these conditions are. My guess extreme heat and low humidity.
D/P
Can the corners of a tight case be heated and stretched out a bit?
Howard
My advice is to leave the plastic alone if at all possible. I recently bought an ivory plastic 302 which was very tight around the base, so I carefully removed the shell and then gently banged the edges of the base with a small hammer to bend the metal inward slightly. The shell fit comfortably over the base after that.
Larry
Thank you very much for the information in this thread. I'll be putting some of this advice to use very soon, probably by next weekend!
I ground the base corners almost to the divot where the foot screw goes. Cover fits fine now and an invisible fix when the feet are put back on and the cover replaced.-Howard
Howard -
Like you, I ground back the corners of a 302 baseplate. I may not do that again. Do you notice how efficiently the magnets in the ringer collect the metal shavings?
On another 302, I banged back the edges and corners of the baseplate a bit, as suggested by LarryInMichigan. Worked just as well, and no mess to clean up.
Bill
Bill,
I tried the banging in the corners but I couldn't get the clearance needed.
The 302 that I did had an aluminum baseplate.
The cure for for the shavings/filings problem is to remove the ringer and put it far away from your grinding area. (That goes for the receiver element too!)
The job is easier if you take all the removable components off of the baseplate.
Howard
.
Quote from: unbeldi on January 29, 2013, 07:12:30 PM
So, keep heat and direct sun light away from Tenite phones (or other soft thermo plastics)
You don't have to tell PaulF that! He is still wondering how he is going to restore that clear AE 34 set!
Terry
.
i have found that on my 302 when i have to take the housing(i have the bakeliteplastic 1949 version) off i put the phone on a bench or table, by this time i have unscrewed the bottom,i turn it around so i see the power cord hole and carefully take a screwdriver being careful not to touch any of the interior guts, with tip of the screw driver down and put the screwdriver on the outside upper part of the hole and very gently lift ,do not force it,but lift very gradually it will eventually come off. make sure to leave the phone on the table or bench. do not pick up and do it in mid air or even put it in your lap, because you can drop it and then it is ALL OVER.
also, the plastic shells of the 302s do shrink over time . especially if they have been in storage for years. what happens is the plastic shrinks around the base making it extremely hard to remove without breaking it.
Quote from: southernphoneman on March 01, 2013, 02:09:09 PM
(i have the bakeliteplastic 1949 version)
I know you read in many places that it's Bakelite. But it is really a cellulose acetate derivative, quite different and made from wood chips. Eastman Kodak patented it under the trade name Tenite. I believe that they used the 'lightest' variety of Tenite, which they called Tenite Acetate. Having only a short carbon chain, it breaks down more easily than the other varieties, hence the shrinkage. This becomes very pronounced at higher temperatures. Over the span of decades the material will shrink and envelope the metal developing internal stress, but it may not even break while on the metal. But when it is removed from the metal the stress is suddenly relieved causing excessive internal strains and the housing cracks.
For the 500 series, WE initially switched to a different kind of Tenite, I believe it is the Tenite Butyrate. A WE conference paper and presentation about the design of the 500 called it "Tenite 2", but this must be some internal nick name, because there is no Tenite 2 that came from Kodak.
The characteristic smell of this plastic is what gives away its identity. It has a foul odor which comes from the breakdown of the plastic into butyric acid or butanoic acid, by the more modern name. It is the same smell of rancid butter, from which it got its original name. Tenite Butyrate appears more stable over decades at normal temperatures, but it does also shrink at higher temperatures, like most plastics. In the late 50s Western Electric abandoned it and switched to what I think is an ABS-based polymer (acrylonitrile butadiene styrene) which is also a thermoplastic but has better mechanical properties, especially higher impact resistance, and is very glossy compared to the cellulosics, which are very soft.
I have had great success with shrinkage problems be simply taking a small hammer and hammering the rounded 302 bases inward. You know when to stop hammering when the case fits on easily. If done evenly on all four corners you can't tell that anything has been modified. Pete Blanshard
Pete,
Welcome to the forum. It's been a while since I've seen you at the flea market.
Larry
Quote from: crankcall on June 14, 2013, 08:22:53 PM
I have had great success with shrinkage problems be simply taking a small hammer and hammering the rounded 302 bases inward. You know when to stop hammering when the case fits on easily. If done evenly on all four corners you can't tell that anything has been modified. Pete Blanshard
Pete...welcome to the Forum. Your creations are tremendous. It is a pleasure having you join us....take care....Doug
My opinion on this topic is this. If I paid big bucks for colored 302, and when it arrived, the corners had been cut, on the otherwise great condition base, I would be extremely upset. However, if the bumps had been removed carefully most would not even notice it. It's not going to change the integrity of the case at all, Well maybe 100 years from now. But cutting the base is a very intrusive and obvious hacking of the phone. Altering the physical shape of any part of the phone, that is detectable, is seriously reducing the phones value. JMHO
D/P
Still, I think that the important point in all this is that it might be best to take some preventive action rather than let the phones risk cracking. But I also fear what may happen when you try to open some of them. Maybe WE should have thought about changing the spacing between the housing and the rim of the baseplate at some point before or during the switch to plastic housings.
I'd be even more upset if one or more cracks happened between the time it was photographed for Ebay and the time the UPS guy tossed it on the front porch....especially if the stress on the corners had anything to do with the damage.
If a blue 302 were worth $1,000, then I'd guess about $650 of that would be the housing, $250 the handset, $25 the 5J dial, $60 for the cords, $8 for the ringer, $1 for the induction coil and $1 for the condenser---leaving $5 for the metal base plate and feet.
So if you *cut* the corners of the metal baseplate, the phone might then be worth $999 instead of $1,000. But if you modify the housing---even for "its own good"---then *some* collectors might think the housing was now worth a lot less than $650. While certainly preferable to having a cracked housing, it is still a modification. And it is doubtful, even if the modifier attached a note documenting the change, that the documentation would always follow the phone.
Quote from: Dan/Panther on October 18, 2013, 03:35:46 PM
My opinion on this topic is this. If I paid big bucks for colored 302, and when it arrived, the corners had been cut, on the otherwise great condition base, I would be extremely upset. However, if the bumps had been removed carefully most would not even notice it. It's not going to change the integrity of the case at all, Well maybe 100 years from now. But cutting the base is a very intrusive and obvious hacking of the phone. Altering the physical shape of any part of the phone, that is detectable, is seriously reducing the phones value. JMHO
D/P
Dan,,,when I started this thread it was more for repairing a phone you owned than repairing it for sale. I found a very early thermoplastic phone that did not fit on its base. The shell had no cracks that was very unusual for this early version of thermoplastic. Many Forum members joined in with their opinions and I did get my shell on the base!! I was stoked. Super excited when it fit.
Yes, I did eventually sell my phone and yes the buyer did know of the repairs. I think this is more about saving a vintage phone than seeing it damaged beyond repair from a crack. I understand your concerns, but I would be a lot more worried of someone drilling out the fragile thermoplastic shell than the very sturdy metal base. Just my humble opinion.
For the record, I have done NO preventative maintenance on my color 302s. It hasn't even been thought of, then again, I do not risk opening them either. No need! I just happily gaze at them on a shelf. They are a fragile piece of telephone history..take care....Doug
Good Discussion. THis has always been a cery relevant discussion for phone collectors with everyone having their own opinion on what is the best way to proactively prevent this problem.
Maybe some baseplates flare out at the top edge of the lip more than others. If so the tapping with a hammer might just do it. If it needs a bit more a small slot cut into the lip might allow the edge to be bent in a bit more while still not being as obvious as grinding the entire corner off.
Least obvious is grinding the inside of the plastic shell but that also seems dangerous to me.
Terry
This phone with the vermilion stamping is a phone company refurb. As you thought, the original shell on this phone was metal.
Mike
"This phone with the vermilion stamping is a phone company refurb. As you thought, the original shell on this phone was metal. Mike"
I disagree....Doug
I only saw those large stamps in early prewar plastic sets black included