News:

"The phone is a remarkably complex, simple device,
and very rarely ever needs repairs, once you fix them." - Dan/Panther

Main Menu

Not your usual flea market find...

Started by AdamAnt316, June 02, 2010, 07:53:31 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

AdamAnt316

Hello everyone! I've been collecting old phones for several years now. Most of my phones have come from yard sales and flea markets; some have been hits (my '40s metal 302 for $20), a few have been misses (a WE 315H subset for $75, unfit for use with a 202, as intended). However, one of the phones I picked up recently may be my best find yet...

A few months back, I was digging around at one of the local flea markets, when I spotted a couple of phones in the corner of an otherwise-nondescript stall. One was a 2554, in beat-up condition. The other one, however, was something I'd never seen in the flesh, only read about online: a beige Western Electric model 660A1 Card Dialer!

As discovered, it had no punch cards to go with it, but it did have a WE 2012B transformer attached to the line cord (rather than the standard 2075A type; does anyone have a spare?). I found the seller, and asked him how much he wanted for the phone. He said, "Well, I'm trying to get rid of the stuff in that corner, so I'll let it go for a buck." Sold! ;D I asked if he had any of the cards that go with it, but he said no. Still, I figured I'd probably done OK. When I checked eBay, I discovered that a non-working touchtone Card Dialer had recently sold for $135... :o

When I got around to checking it out, I discovered that someone, for some reason, had removed the ringer somewhere along the line. ??? I also discovered that, when plugged in, it refused to go on-hook. I made some inquiries on the TCI list, and discovered that Paul Fassbender lived not too far away from me. I brought the Card Dialer to his house, and we proceeded to look it over in his shop.

The first thing we discovered was the likely reason why it wouldn't go on-hook: the phone had been dropped on it's side at one point! The chrome handset hook was loose at the place where it attached to the brass hookswitch mechanism, and there was a dent in the side of the plastic case alongside one of the prongs of said handset hook. We removed the hook assembly from the switch contacts, and using a hammer, re-flattened the rivets at where the two parts joined up. We also installed a C4A ringer, and used an old punch card to see if the card reader dial still worked. Fortunately, it did. :)

After a bit of searching and bidding, I managed to acquire a set of blank cards for it, to allow me to use it as it was meant to be used. I can see why these phones aren't particularly common; dialing with the card reader mechanism isn't much faster than dialing by hand, and if you had to move, you'd need to punch up a whole new set of cards. However, it's still cool to use. 8) Anyway, here are some pictures:

The phone itself, sitting on my desk. The card slot, and it's associated buttons, can be seen above the standard rotary dial.


With the cover removed, showing off the innards. Interestingly, both the rotary dial and network are of the same sort usually seen in Princess phones!


Thanks to Paul Fassbender, and everyone else who helped me out with this phone!
-Adam

-----------------------------

EDIT:  ( externally linked images above attached below as upload forum images )

Jim Stettler

I would of paid a buck for it.
Heck it is worth a buck for a chance to visit Paul F. (maybe one day....)

Nice phone, and rotary,
Jim
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

gpo706

Great find, isn't it brilliant when you get the final bit to make it work, ie the blank cards.

Is it mechanical or optically read?

Its very simiilar to card programmed computers, IBM / Honeywell etc
"now this should take five minutes, where's me screwdriver went now..?"

bellsystemproperty

Very cool!  ;D I thought my 500 at goodwill for $7 was a find...
It's mechanically read, because you can hear the clicking. I saw one at John Larue's phone museum. I don't get why no one has decided to start reproducing the cards. They are just plastic with precut holes to be punched out, so they wouldn't be very expensive to make.
C*NET # 794-5953 (KYLE)

gpo706

Interesting they are mechanically read.

And as you say, you don't even need a punch machine to "programme" them, just push out the circles, that's incredibly clever, so Miss Jones your secretary could do it for herself.

Adamant - can you scan a card or describe how it is programmed?

(PS - I want one)
"now this should take five minutes, where's me screwdriver went now..?"

bellsystemproperty

I don't have one either, but it must be mechanically read since you can hear it clicking away when dialed, plus if it was optical like a CD I don't think it would have such big holes.
Here's the BSPhttp://www.telephonecollectors.org/DocumentLibrary/BSPs/502Division/502-660-101-i1-600-663-ID-Install-Maintenance.pdf
C*NET # 794-5953 (KYLE)

AdamAnt316

#6
Quote from: gpo706 on June 02, 2010, 08:24:30 PM
Interesting they are mechanically read.

And as you say, you don't even need a punch machine to "programme" them, just push out the circles, that's incredibly clever, so Miss Jones your secretary could do it for herself.

Adamant - can you scan a card or describe how it is programmed?

(PS - I want one)

The cards are indeed mechanically read. Each card has eight columns of holes, plus a set of teeth on each side which the motorized mechanism uses to pull the card through it. An unpunched hole has a plastic plug on the inside, which can easily be popped out of the hole using a ballpoint pen. Apart from the markings, the cards meant for rotary and touchtone card dialers are the same (though I don't know how a rotary card dialer would deal with a row punched for the * or # key).

To program a digit, you push out the correct two holes in each row which correspond to the required digit. Four of the columns represent the digits as read horizontally on a touchtone dial (123/456/789/*0#); three more represent the digits as read vertically (147*/2580/369#). For example, to punch a row for the digit '9', you punch out one hole in the 789 column, and another in the 369# column.

The eighth column is marked STOP, and is there to allow for a pause to be inserted. For example, if you needed to use the above-dialed '9' to get an outside line, you'd punch the STOP hole in the row for the next digit, and the card reader mechanism would cease dialing after reading it. Once you got the outside line dial tone, you pressed START again, and the mechanism would resume dialing from where it left off.

I actually have a demonstration video of this phone in the works. It'll include an explanation of the parts, a demonstration of the card dialing process, and a view of the innards. I'll also try to show what both the punched and unpunched cards look like, and see if the punch cards can be scanned legibly.
-Adam

Jim Stettler

Some collectors keep the "chads"  for later reuse.
Jim
They should be easy to reproduce, make them accurate. Also make a wide autovon set of cards, You  should reproduce the dividers as well.
JMO,
Jim
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

paul-f

Quote from: Jim S. on June 02, 2010, 07:56:28 PM
I would of paid a buck for it.
Heck it is worth a buck for a chance to visit Paul F. (maybe one day....)

Jim

Welcome to the group Adam!

Jim,

For you admission is half price!

Come this weekend with a truck or trailer!
Visit: paul-f.com         WE  500  Design_Line

.

Dan/Panther

Quote from: Jim S. on June 02, 2010, 07:56:28 PM
I would of paid a buck for it.
Heck it is worth a buck for a chance to visit Paul F. (maybe one day....)

Nice phone, and rotary,
Jim

Kinda generous with that dough ain't ya ?
D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

AdamAnt316

Quote from: Jim S. on June 02, 2010, 09:40:47 PM
Some collectors keep the "chads"  for later reuse.

I actually have many of the chads, though they tend to get lost easily. Also, figuring out how to put them back in the holes so that they don't get dislodged might be an issue.

Quote from: Jim S. on June 02, 2010, 09:40:47 PM
They should be easy to reproduce, make them accurate. Also make a wide autovon set of cards, You  should reproduce the dividers as well.

Were you aiming this at me? I have indeed looked into having the cards reproduced, since I know someone who runs a CNC shop. The main issue would be finding enough people willing to buy these punch cards in order to make the endeavor worthwhile. Same goes for the Autovon cards and dividers, with the added challenge of not knowing the exact dimensions of either one.

Quote from: paul-f on June 03, 2010, 12:20:36 AM
Welcome to the group Adam!

Thanks again, Paul! Your collection is outstanding; makes mine look like a sad joke! By the way, if you need any photos of said card dialer for your site, let me know.
-Adam

Jim Stettler

Quote from: AdamAnt316 on June 03, 2010, 12:46:42 PM
Quote from: Jim S. on June 02, 2010, 09:40:47 PM
Some collectors keep the "chads"  for later reuse.

I actually have many of the chads, though they tend to get lost easily. Also, figuring out how to put them back in the holes so that they don't get dislodged might be an issue.

Quote from: Jim S. on June 02, 2010, 09:40:47 PM
They should be easy to reproduce, make them accurate. Also make a wide autovon set of cards, You  should reproduce the dividers as well.

Were you aiming this at me? I have indeed looked into having the cards reproduced, since I know someone who runs a CNC shop. The main issue would be finding enough people willing to buy these punch cards in order to make the endeavor worthwhile. Same goes for the Autovon cards and dividers, with the added challenge of not knowing the exact dimensions of either one.



I was aiming it at anyone who would take up the challenge. There were rotary cards TT cards and Autovon cards. I don't know of anyone with autovon cards.
Jim
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

AdamAnt316

Quote from: Jim S. on June 03, 2010, 01:18:34 PM

I was aiming it at anyone who would take up the challenge. There were rotary cards TT cards and Autovon cards. I don't know of anyone with autovon cards.
Jim


Understood. The rotary and TT cards were basically the same, other than the markings. They actually made three different sets of eight-column cards: ones with just the '0' (for rotary/10-button TT card dialers), ones with the standard * and # (for 12-button TT card dialers), and a third style with a star and diamond in place of the * and # (were there any touchtone dials made with these alternate symbols?). I've heard of two different styles of Autovon cards: one which apparently were a nine column version of the standard cards, and another which had rectangular punches rather than circular ones (seen on Paul's dialer card page). The index cards would probably be relatively easy to replicate, especially since they don't need to be fed through a mechanism. Whether or not they get reproduced depends on what it would cost, and how many people would be interested in them. I may take a look into it, at least with regards to the standard 8-column cards, and index cards.
-Adam

Jim Stettler

Quote from: AdamAnt316 on June 03, 2010, 04:21:13 PM
Quote from: Jim S. on June 03, 2010, 01:18:34 PM

I was aiming it at anyone who would take up the challenge. There were rotary cards TT cards and Autovon cards. I don't know of anyone with autovon cards.
Jim


Understood. The rotary and TT cards were basically the same, other than the markings. They actually made three different sets of eight-column cards: ones with just the '0' (for rotary/10-button TT card dialers), ones with the standard * and # (for 12-button TT card dialers), and a third style with a star and diamond in place of the * and # (were there any touchtone dials made with these alternate symbols?). I've heard of two different styles of Autovon cards: one which apparently were a nine column version of the standard cards, and another which had rectangular punches rather than circular ones (seen on Paul's dialer card page). The index cards would probably be relatively easy to replicate, especially since they don't need to be fed through a mechanism. Whether or not they get reproduced depends on what it would cost, and how many people would be interested in them. I may take a look into it, at least with regards to the standard 8-column cards, and index cards.
-Adam

I recall seeing an early 12 button with the star and diamond on ebay a few years ago. "Operator" was curved like on 10 button sets.

regarding curved operator, I think this was only done on the 10 button and the 10 button convertable TT pads.
This is only a guess.

Another use for card dialers was for in-house ordering from a bell company to WE.  The part #'s were put on the cards.
Jim
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

Jim Stettler

Quote from: paul-f on June 03, 2010, 12:20:36 AM
Quote from: Jim S. on June 02, 2010, 07:56:28 PM
I would of paid a buck for it.
Heck it is worth a buck for a chance to visit Paul F. (maybe one day....)

Jim

Welcome to the group Adam!

Jim,

For you admission is half price!

Come this weekend with a truck or trailer!

Tempting Paul, very tempting. However,  I am busy buying locally.
I just blew $10.00 for a white 554, 2 black 500's, and a black 2554. and a spare handset.
All mod and boring, however at least 2 handsets are (later  :(  )amplified.


My switchboard guy called a week ago asking if I had interest in 500 set carcasses, and large quanities of NOS cords HW and mod. He also has a box of ringers set aside. This is the same guy that has a quanity of 616's and key systems, and lots'o phones. I may try to visit him this weekend. He is 10 miles away, you are over 1,000.

Jim
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.