Completely New To Hobby... Feeling Completely Helpless with my Leich 901B

[Joel B]

A couple updates...

I put a bid in on a "like new in box" Leich 901b on ebay...held the top bid in the $50's for a while, and then the bidding ran up to $112 + $15+ shipping... too rich for my blood, but it would have sure been nice to get one with little to no work needed.

I have been working on my phone with some help from some other Leich owners.  A few issues so far.

1st, I'm getting conflicting reports on whether the phone should ring when cranked and whether that is a sign of an issue.  On multiple posts on this forum I have seen both ways, but I have one knowledgeable Leich owner that feels that the 901b should ring when cranked regardless.  Any thoughts?

My magneto cranks awkwardly... twice in the rotation it gets hard to turn, which makes it feel like the rotation has a wobble, and it is most definitely not easy.  On advice from others I have tried to lubricate the magneto post (not much help), as well as inspect for issues.  The only thing I have been able to diagnose is on the bottom side of the magneto.  Where the magneto post contact touches a thin piece of metal (that leads to a soldered post), I found that pressing the thin metal piece back allows the magneto to spin easily.  Upon closer inspection I see that the post contact has a flat head screwdriver slot and at some point it looks like someone overtorqued it, causing the slot to throw up a sharp edge.  I've been tempted to use some fine sandpaper to knock it down, but worried to jump into that.

Any other reasons it would turn hard like that?

Also, looking for the best technique to test whether the magneto is throwing a spark.  Tried a voltmeter but (being a noob) I'm having a hard time determining where best test connection points would be, as well as hold voltmeter points to said contacts while getting it cranked.  Advice?

I've taken some photos and a video, but instead of clogging up the space here I'm providing a link for you to view them (if so inclined).  Appreciate any help you can provide, as always.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/10tq5xx5n6bz2xn/AAA2SWZ9_kkQGd_Ch2iEdyiLa?dl=0

[dsk]

If Ø 13 is empty, except for the wire to the magneto (generator),  it should ring  its internal ringer when you crank it. 
dsk

[unbeldi]

A couple updates...

I put a bid in on a "like new in box" Leich 901b on ebay...held the top bid in the $50's for a while, and then the bidding ran up to $112 + $15+ shipping... too rich for my blood, but it would have sure been nice to get one with little to no work needed.

I have been working on my phone with some help from some other Leich owners.  A few issues so far.

1st, I'm getting conflicting reports on whether the phone should ring when cranked and whether that is a sign of an issue.  On multiple posts on this forum I have seen both ways, but I have one knowledgeable Leich owner that feels that the 901b should ring when cranked regardless.  Any thoughts?

My magneto cranks awkwardly... twice in the rotation it gets hard to turn, which makes it feel like the rotation has a wobble, and it is most definitely not easy.  On advice from others I have tried to lubricate the magneto post (not much help), as well as inspect for issues.  The only thing I have been able to diagnose is on the bottom side of the magneto.  Where the magneto post contact touches a thin piece of metal (that leads to a soldered post), I found that pressing the thin metal piece back allows the magneto to spin easily.  Upon closer inspection I see that the post contact has a flat head screwdriver slot and at some point it looks like someone overtorqued it, causing the slot to throw up a sharp edge.  I've been tempted to use some fine sandpaper to knock it down, but worried to jump into that.

Any other reasons it would turn hard like that?

Also, looking for the best technique to test whether the magneto is throwing a spark.  Tried a voltmeter but (being a noob) I'm having a hard time determining where best test connection points would be, as well as hold voltmeter points to said contacts while getting it cranked.  Advice?

I've taken some photos and a video, but instead of clogging up the space here I'm providing a link for you to view them (if so inclined).  Appreciate any help you can provide, as always.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/10tq5xx5n6bz2xn/AAA2SWZ9_kkQGd_Ch2iEdyiLa?dl=0

A magneto that is connected to an electrical load is indeed harder to turn.  The current that flows creates an opposing magnetic field that counteracts the rotation action. When the magneto is shorted, it can be very hard to turn it.

When you disconnect the contact springs then you remove the load and the generator rotates freely.  It not clear by your description what exactly you disconnected or lifted.  Since all generators have two magnetic poles interacting with the coil, the rotor experiences two points of resistance when current is flowing, as you observed.

Do you have anything connected to the telephone when you experience this?

In most cases, there is no reason for the local bell to ring when the generator is operated. In rural areas that are a long distance from a central office, ringing the local bell only adds an extra electrical load on the line reducing the efficiency of the magneto.  Many generators (most?), including the Leich generators, have specific spring contact provisions for disconnecting the ringer from the line when the generator is operated.

However, often it was practiced to ring the local bell as well.

Many collectors seem to rewire generators to that the local bell rings for the effect.  Many times also we find magneto phones that are simply miswired, I suppose because many people just don't know the correct way, and don't refuse to read diagrams.

The GTE document I posted for you earlier in this topic provides instructions for wiring the ringer and generator. In particular, in has a section with instruction to silence the ringer during magneto operation.

[Joel B]

DSK & Unbeldi- Thanks for chiming in.

A couple of clarifications.  My phone is not hooked up to anything right now.  In fact, I still need to get a cord replaced for both the receiver and the wall as my phone came without them.  I also do not have a battery hooked up to my phone.  Would this impact how the phone "acts" when I turn the crank?

I will try to post photos of the contact on the bottom tomorrow or Friday.  I neglected to take any when I had the magneto out of the telephone frame, so I'll need to pull it apart again and take a few.

Like many users, I want the bell to ring for effect only asI know it isn't necessary.  For the application I'll be using it in it will be more for novelty than utility.

DSK- Thank for the schematic.  Without a handset not battery connected per your drawing, would I have the issues I am describing?

Joel

[TelePlay]

I've taken some photos and a video, but instead of clogging up the space here I'm providing a link for you to view them (if so inclined).  Appreciate any help you can provide, as always.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/10tq5xx5n6bz2xn/AAA2SWZ9_kkQGd_Ch2iEdyiLa?dl=0

Please, clog up the space here.

A bit more than a month ago, we learned that Picasa went dark, or changed their url to something which made all external links to Picasa here on the forum go dark, dead, worthless, meaningless, gone.

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17207.0

That was a great blow to the forum in that a wealth of information about refurbishing phones and dial cleaning disappeared overnight.

As a result, I am moving forum photos posted on Photobucket and linked externally back to the forum.

So, bottom line is, please post all photos directly to the forum using the "Attachments and other options" link shown below the lower left corner of the post/reply text creation box. Yes, only 6 photos allowed per post/reply but unlimited replies are allowed.

More to read about external links can be found at

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?board=84.0

including the specific topics of

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11610.0
     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17208.0

and this applies to ALL members, not just you, so don't feel singled out or embarrassed.

External links were a popular way to post pictures in the first two years of the forum but external links and links to eBay auctions with the text saying "See this . . . " and no screen capture are now nothing more than junk topics/posts/replies.

Just don't use external links going forward so what you post, text with images supporting the text, will be saved on the forum for posterity and not lost to a url change or an account closed.

Thanks . . .

[andy1702]

I agree with Unbeldi, I don't think your phone should ring when you wind the handle. It should only ring the one at the other end. Think about those old Laurel & Hardy shorts where they always seem to be making phone calls. They wind the handle like crazy then say something like "Hello, operator?" Their phone never rings while they wind the handle.

I also agree that you should be able to feel the magnetic field twice for every turn of the magneto. This might feel a bit bouncy as you come up to a point where the fields are repelling. If the mag is not connected to anything it will turn easier, but you probably shouldn't turn it, because the magneto contains coils of wire. If it's not connected to anything then the spark it creates has nowhere to go and it may well find the sortest route it can by jumping out of the coil at some point where the insulation is not so good and in doing so it will damage the insulation further, making the magneto less effective or maybe breaking it entirely.

It sound's like your phone may have been messed with to make the bell ring. I'd suggest using some original wiring diagrams or photos of the innards of a known good phone to re-wire yours. Maybe someone can post a photo of the correct wiring inside one of these?

Andy.

[dsk]

As described over, the more load, the harder to turn the generator. It is important to leave the handset on when you crank the phone, just to push down the cradle switch. This disconnects the voice circuit witch almost short the generator.

If the internal ringer rings or not depend on how it is connected. It is two options, the ringer across the line, (rings always). or between the W and B wires from the generator, then it only rings on incoming calls.

Once I had a generator with some metallic short on the contact set in the end of the generator, and that was equal to short it, one way to try if the generator is ok will be to remove 2 of the 3 wires, an tape them before testing, then teh generator should run smoother. 

The generator short it selves in rest position, and when you start cranking, the contact set changes and may short the internal ringer if that configuration is chosen.  Do not oil the contact set, but all (4?) bearings may like a small drop of non silicone oil, e.g. bike, sewing machine,  or weapon oil.

dsk

[dsk]

Thank you, this inspired me to dig a little in the basement, and I have some doublets, so These are not usually displayed.

The first one is a modell 1918 from Elektrisk Bureau, these were made from 1918 to 1934, This one has probably got new cords.
The 2 next is the next modell made by EB, modell 1934, One with bakelite fork, the other with metal. The switch from bakelite to metal was done between 1940 and 41 due to problems getting bakelite. These are convertibles, and may be used as a tabletop, or wall telephone.  The last one with cracks and ships is an LME DAH 1901 TP.

dsk

[Joel B]

It's been over 6 months since I checked in, and I'm making some progress.  I have a handful of phones I have been working with, some I think should work with very little work, others that are more "project" phones.  All Leichs, either 901B or 901C. As a reminder, I'm trying to rig up a couple of phones in a historic building to be used internally only, meaning we crank one and the others ring and then we can talk between them like an intercom system.  The plan was that all phones would ring when cranked, even the "source" phone for effect. 

After getting some advice from some others on the board, I began only buying phones that rang when cranked to cut down on the troubleshooting I needed to do.  So I got one phone complete ready to go, receiver hooked up, working main cord to phone, etc.  Step 1 complete.

Then I decided that the phone I got first (that didn't ring and was hard to crank) had the nicest base, cover, etc... and I decided that since things were going so well that I'd remove the guts of my good phone and swap them into the base of the "bad" phone.  Sounds simple, right?  So I went through the whole process (without removing wires, just screws in the base of the phone) and felt pretty good about myself, reassembled the "good" phone completely, and for effect, turned the crank... the first turn produced a ring, and then nothing... and it now cranks harder than it did before.  Others had mentioned elsewhere this could mean a short, but I literally did nothing with the wiring...PERIOD.

One wrinkle... the "good" phone came on a metal base; the "bad" phone came on a bakelite base.  I changed this out for looks and because some of the nuts/screws on the underside of the good phone were extremely rusted.  Both phones are Leich 901B.

Anyone willing to help me out?

[Alex G. Bell]

It's been over 6 months since I checked in, and I'm making some progress. 

... I went through the whole process (without removing wires, just screws in the base of the phone) and felt pretty good about myself, reassembled the "good" phone completely, and for effect, turned the crank... the first turn produced a ring, and then nothing... and it now cranks harder than it did before.  Others had mentioned elsewhere this could mean a short, but I literally did nothing with the wiring...PERIOD.

...

Anyone willing to help me out?

I don't see where you state what this phone is connected to.  If it's connected to nothing and the spade tips at the end of the line cord are touching, that would be the short circuit which would make it hard to crank and might change from one minute to the next as a result of your "doing nothing" to it.

[Joel B]

"Alex"- To clarify, it isn't connected to anything at this point.  It's possible the spade tips were touching when I cranked it, so I have just placed a piece of electrical tape on each to keep that from happening.  It still won't ring when cranked.  Do I need to do something to remove the short?

[Alex G. Bell]

"Alex"- To clarify, it isn't connected to anything at this point.  It's possible the spade tips were touching when I cranked it, so I have just placed a piece of electrical tape on each to keep that from happening.  It still won't ring when cranked.  Do I need to do something to remove the short?

If the spade tips are not touching then the short must be elsewhere.  If the phone was modified to ring itself when cranked (as discussed earlier) having the handset off hook would also present a short circuit to the magneto (hand generator).  I'll assume you know that.

Otherwise, the possibilities are endless and best assessed by someone who is looking at the internal construction of a 901B.  Since I don't have one I'll have to leave that to someone who does. 

Otherwise you could work your way back to the hand generator, disconnecting things until you get there.  That's the logical process of elimination rather than random "try my luck" method.  You would need to have a circuit diagram and understand it.  Do you? 

Perhaps best though to start by first disconnecting the hand generator itself to make sure the short is not internal to it, and if not, then reconnect it and work your way towards it.

A circuit diagram or schematic depicts the operation of the circuit.  A wiring diagram tells you were to connect each wire but often is useless for understanding operation of the circuit.

[TelePlay]

"Alex"- To clarify, it isn't connected to anything at this point.  It's possible the spade tips were touching when I cranked it, so I have just placed a piece of electrical tape on each to keep that from happening.  It still won't ring when cranked.  Do I need to do something to remove the short?

Can you post photos of the inside showing the wiring from all sides. Someone out there may be help you by seeing what is going on by looking at how it's wired right now.

[Joel B]

Alex- As mentioned in my original post over 6 months ago, I'm learning this as I go.  I have the schematic (Attached), but I'd be lying if I told you I understand it.  I originally spent a full day taking notes on where the wiring goes in the two "ringing when cranked" phones, so in that respect I created my own wiring diagram, but to your point, that doesn't help much for this.

I'm posting a couple of pictures as well. I'm not sure how helpful that will be, but I'll take any ideas this group has. 

[Alex G. Bell]

Alex- As mentioned in my original post over 6 months ago, I'm learning this as I go.  I have the schematic (Attached), but I'd be lying if I told you I understand it.  I originally spent a full day taking notes on where the wiring goes in the two "ringing when cranked" phones, so in that respect I created my own wiring diagram, but to your point, that doesn't help much for this.

I'm posting a couple of pictures as well. I'm not sure how helpful that will be, but I'll take any ideas this group has.

I'm aware of your newness to this hobby.  Nevertheless people come to it with various experience, some from commercial electronics, so they understand schematics even though they're totally unfamiliar with the ways which were peculiar to the telephone industry.  With so many messages in this topic it's impractical for me to read the entire history.

For me the photos only demonstrate the impossibility for me of helping you based on the photos.  For me the schematic is a "map".  The photos are a maze.

Assuming the phone is wired per the L/H figure, disconnect the  W, B and Y colored leads from terminals 5, 13 and 2 and see whether it cranks freely, making sure the lead ends are not touching anything.