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WE 464 Craigslist find

Started by oldguy, July 04, 2017, 02:34:53 PM

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oldguy

I picked up a WE 464 on Craigslist last weekend for $35.00. The cloth line cord, handset cord & bottom are like new. there are little scotch tape pieces stuck here & there but otherwise in outstanding condition. I looked at prices on eBay & it seemed like a good deal. It's my 1st 400 series phone.  I don't have an KSU, On my 1st Jobs the WE56x series phones were what we had. Even before I started collecting phones, I always wanted to make a multi line phone work at home with buttons that work or light up. Yes I would like to do/have whatever it takes to make that happen. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Gary

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: oldguy on July 04, 2017, 02:34:53 PM
I picked up a WE 464 on Craigslist last weekend for $35.00. The cloth line cord, handset cord & bottom are like new. there are little scotch tape pieces stuck here & there but otherwise in outstanding condition. I looked at prices on eBay & it seemed like a good deal. It's my 1st 400 series phone.  I don't have an KSU, On my 1st Jobs the WE56x series phones were what we had. Even before I started collecting phones, I always wanted to make a multi line phone work at home with buttons that work or light up. Yes I would like to do/have whatever it takes to make that happen. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
There are two generations of 400 series key sets.  The first generation were compatible only with 1A type KSUs, which were large and hard to find in the full featured version which provide lamp control.  The second generation is compatible with either 1A or 1A1 and 1A2 by moving a few spade tipped leads around on top of the key.

There are also 460-type sets without lamps and 464/465-type sets with lamps.  The "GG" suffix indicates yours is a second generation set (with lamps).

400 series key sets also had fixed function keys, not convertible mechanically for selecting a line ("interlocking") or signaling on an intercom ("momentary").  "GG" indicates yours has a HOLD button and 5 PUs ("pickups", i.e. line selection keys)

A 551 "shoebox" 1A2 KSU (so named because of its size and shape) is pretty compact, contains an internal power supply and will provide for 4 lines, which can be CO/PBX lines or manual intercoms in any mix.  You'd probably want (4) CO/PBX lines or (3) + (1) manual ICM.

The 5th PU could be used to select yet one more CO/PBX or ICM line which would not have HOLD and lamp control.  An external dial intercom controlled by separate ICM-only KSU equipment is also a good use for the 5th PU with (4) CO/PBX lines served from the 551.  There are small compact adjunct dial intercom units which could be added alongside the 551 to provide the dial intercom as well as controlling the lamp for the 5th PU.

551s are quite easy to find.   There were of course ITT, S-C and NE equivalents but WECo 551 KSUs are plentiful and should be easiest to find.

You will need a 101-type connecting block to terminate the line cord leads on screw terminals.  These contain one or more 44A connecting blocks, each with 10 screw terminals, under a metal cover.  They were made for 1 (101A), 2 or 3 (101C) or 4 (101D) 44A connecting blocks according to the number of leads in the line cord.  With 5 PUs I'd expect the cord to have less than 30 leads so a 101C equipped with (3) 44As should do the trick.

If I were you I would connect a short 25 pair Amphenol plug-ended cable to the 101C connecting block with the leads in the Amphenol plug-ended cable assigned to match the assignments in a plug-ended 564/565/2564/2564 (rotary dial or TT) 6-button set.  This way the 464GG wiring will be compatible and either kind of key set can be plugged into socket-ended cables connected into the KSU to feed the phones.

Details on how to do this can be spelled out when you reach that point.

rdelius

looks like a NE set to  me. Nice late date also

andre_janew

Never knew they made 400s as late as 9-57!

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: andre_janew on July 05, 2017, 05:32:46 PM
Never knew they made 400s as late as 9-57!
I'm not certain they ever made 2nd generation 1A1-compatible 400 sets at all.  Perhaps they were all converted from 1st Generation 1A-only sets.  The 1957 date could be a conversion date, especially considering the 3 vermilion bars, perhaps part of the original marking.

unbeldi

#5
Quote from: andre_janew on July 05, 2017, 05:32:46 PM
Never knew they made 400s as late as 9-57!

It is a NECo set.  NECo also made 302s this late.

unbeldi

Quote from: Alex G. Bell on July 05, 2017, 05:36:49 PM
I'm not certain they ever made 2nd generation 1A1-compatible 400 sets at all.  Perhaps they were all converted from 1st Generation 1A-only sets.  The 1957 date could be a conversion date, especially considering the 3 vermilion bars, perhaps part of the original marking.

The three vermillion bars indicate that the ringer in the set is a red-stripe ringer, having an inductance of only 9 H.

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: unbeldi on July 05, 2017, 05:36:54 PM
It is a NECo set.  They also made 302s this late.
How do we know it's NECo?

unbeldi

Quote from: Alex G. Bell on July 05, 2017, 05:40:52 PM
How do we know it's NECo?

The format of the month-year stamp is typical NECo.

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: unbeldi on July 05, 2017, 05:39:29 PM
The three vermillion bars indicate that the ringer in the set is a red-stripe ringer, having an inductance of only 9 H.
I remember mention of red stripe ringers but when and why were these low inductance ringers made?

unbeldi

#10
Quote from: Alex G. Bell on July 05, 2017, 06:02:37 PM
I remember mention of red stripe ringers but when and why were these low inductance ringers made?

WECo started using them in the first or second quarter of 1941.  I don't think reasons are documented anywhere, but it seems to coincide with the need for high-performance magnetic materials for military equipment in the war.
WECo never stopped making them before the 300/400-series telephones were retired.
NECo also documents them in the catalogs of the 1950s, confirming the practice of use well after the material restrictions ended.



oldguy

#11
You guys are right, the hand set is Northern Electric. I hadn't looked real closely at it. I haven't even opened it up yet. Thank you everyone for your input. you guys are very knowledgeable, but a lot of it is over my head. I have a lot to learn. There is a 551B unit on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/253022333984   ( dead link 04-13-21 )
Is this a complete usable unit for my purposes?
Gary

poplar1

#12
This 551B is equipped for 2 lines, with slots for 2 more line cards. It does not have the optional ring generator. Without the GEN, you would have to use buzzers, or "line ringers." Line ringers are connected to only one line rather than serving as "common audible" signal on several lines.

You would also need an impact tool to punch down the cables on the  66 block inside the 551B; and, as AGB noted, some 44A connecting blocks + enough cable to go from the 44A blocks to the 551B.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: oldguy on July 05, 2017, 06:41:31 PM
You guys are right, the hand set is Northern Electric. I hadn't looked real closely at it. I haven't even opened it up yet. Thank you everyone for your input. you guys are very knowledgeable, but a lot of it is over my head. I have a lot to learn. There is a 551B unit on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/253022333984 Is this a complete usable unit for my purposes?
It's certainly a 551B and the internal photos show the power supply, interrupter and 2 CO/PBX line card KTUs, so it is essentially complete.  You may want 2 more or the type which provide music on hold.  So far the price is reasonable.

The photo shows a plug-ended cable terminated in the KSU, which is the same gender that would be on a phone.  You probably would want a socket-ended cable connected to the KSU instead but a CCC (3 "connectors")* "bridging adapter" would also permit you to mate the existing plug with 2 phones also equipped with plugs.

* To clarify, the Bell System used the term "plug" for the male and "connector" for the female, which is a misnomer since both males and females are connectors.  A female is a "socket". So their choice of terminology would tend to confuse people not steeped in Bell System jargon, hence I refer to them as plugs and sockets, which is correct terminology. 

However bridging adapters are referred to and marked according to the Bell System (mis)-terminology so one with 3 sockets would be marked and referred to as a "CCC" or one used to connect a socket-ended cable coming from a KSU to two phones would be a CPC, the "C's" mating with the "Ps" on the phones and the "P" mating with the socket from the KSU. 

There are also 9-connector 25-pair bridging adapters which would allow 1 cable from a KSU to feed 8 phones: PCCCCCCC but they are not commonly found.  And there are bridging adapters for 75 pair or 100 pair cables with 3 or 5 plugs or sockets per cable termination.

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: poplar1 on July 05, 2017, 07:55:23 PM
This 551B is equipped for 2 lines, with slots for 2 more line cards. It does not have the optional ring generator. Without the GEN, you would have to use buzzers, or "line ringers." Line ringers are connected to only one line rather than serving as "common audible" signal on several lines.

You would also need an impact tool to punch down the cables on the  66 block inside the 551B; and, as AGB noted, some 44A connecting blocks + enough cable to go from the 44A blocks to the 551B.
There is an optional bracket for adding a 118A Frequency Generator to a 551B KSU for Common Audible Signaling.  These brackets are much more rare than the 118A FGs themselves but the FG can simply sit inside without being mounted.

If he adds a Melco RT9 or RT19 or other mfr's dial ICM unit along side the KSU he will probably want to use buzzers for the ICM signaling.