Click This! - Dial Click - Need Ideas to Eliminate

[JorgeAmely]

Dennis:

In my 5302 (you are familiar with it), within half a finger space, the bottom two flying contacts position themselves right in the middle of the two rigid contacts.

Just about a quarter of a finger space more, and the third flying contact touches the rigid contact above, while the second stays disconnected.

When you let go of the finger, the third contact stays disconnected and the second connects to the bottom rigid contact.

In your dial, the second middle rigid contact seems bent. In my dial, it is perfectly straight as it emerges from the pileup.

[Phonesrfun]

Dennis:

Just for fun, disconnect one of the ringer leads.  Doesn't matter, either one.  Try it then.  I think it will work fine.  If so, I can tell you something that I read in Ralph Meyer's book once.  Anyway, with my set-up I too noticed I am getting a little pop when going off hook, and a louder pop on dial return.  I unhooked the ringer, and presto, no pop in either case.

Let me know!

[Phonesrfun]

Since the 102 is still having some popping or clicking when using the 302 subset or the 634 subset, I think there may still be a dial timing issue, but the fact that newer phones had a problem on the 334 and did not on the 302 subset and the 634 subset point to this issue of needing to isolate the ringer out of the voice circuit.  When you said that the newer phones were still popping on the 334, but not on the newer subsets, I remembered what I read in the book, and a light kind of came on.

I know this is probably as clear as mud.

Lets say that the 102 had a perfect dial.  I believe that with the 334 subset that has the dual purpose condenser, you would still experience objectionable noise, just as you do with known good phones.

Here is what Ralph Meyers says in "Old Time Telephones! Design, History, and Restoration":

He talks about the timing of the switches in common battery phones using the single condenser subset, and says:

"This reduces receiver click, but does not eliminate it because of further condenser discharge.  Common-battery circuits, which have condensers in their direct current loops, have noisy hook switch operation compared with quiet local battery circuits."

In other words, while dialing, the condenser is being charged through the coils of the ringer during dialing.  When the dial returns and restores the connection to the receiver through the switch, the charged-up condenser is now connected to the receiver and  discharges, or dumps all at once into the receiver with a momentary voltage spike.  No timing will eliminate that entirely.  Removing the ringer coil will eliminate that.

If removing the ringer coil still produces a click on that one 102, there could still be some dial adjustment needed, but it may also solve the problem entirely, so try it by just eliminating the ringer wire first and see what happens.  Also, try it with one of your other phones on the 334 subset with the ringer wire disconnected.

If it works, you can use the 302 195A condenser as a second condenser just for the ringer.  I believe this whole thing is why the later 534 and later subsets as well as 302's have two condensers instead of the one single purpose condenser.  

The 334 subset is a 1912 vintage subset, and back then capacitors were very large.  Just look at how big the single 2MF cap is in the subset you are working with.  At the time a little click was probably an OK trade-off to how large and costly the subset would be with two capacitirs (condensers) inside.

Hooking it up for silent operation using the 195A is also easy.  Have one ringer wire go to L1 and wire the other one to the GND terminal which will be just an empty tie-point.  Hook one of the 2MF wires from the 195A to the same GND terminal, and the other to L2.

Now you have two condensers in the circuit.  The 195A just for the ringer, and the old built in condenser just for the receiver circuit.

Let me know how it works.

[Dennis Markham]

Thank you again, Jorge for the photos and Bill for this explanation.

Believe it or not I do completely understand what you've described.  I wondered when I was tinkering with that box if that could have possible just been the nature of the beast.  Initially the "click" was not as bad as it is now.  I think I probably moved the contacts on the dial enough to amplify the problem.  I'm go back to ground zero and start again.  I will give the experiment with the ringer lead a try.  It is going to be later this afternoon but I'll report back.

If it is resolved by adding the 195A then it becomes a trade-off.  Do we want to modify the inside of the box to accommodate the 195A to improve the click issue, or leave the box original and live with the clicking sound?  I'm sure I can stuff the 195A inside the box, out of the way of moving parts.

Thank you.

[Phonesrfun]

Dennis:

The choice as to whether to add the 195A cap is one of whether the owner would like the quaint experience of real old-time telephony, or wants it to be nice and quiet.  Even for me, a "died in the wool" phone nut, my preference would be to not listen to the loud clicks, so I think I would opt to put the 195A inside.  You can hook it up nicely and tie it in with a couple of nylon wire ties and the whole thing would only be visible when the cover is open. 

Or, you could track down a brand new 2MF 250 volt cap at a parts house that would be even smaller.  In the event that it was some bright color like blue, green, or orange, you could wrap it with black electrical tape and it would fit right in.  That way, you would not use up a 302 part.

You are probably like me, and have far exceeded in your time and materials that which you will get out of it.  Believe me, I know how that goes.  I am always too much of a perfectionist, and I rarely ever get paid for what I have into a project that I do for someone else.  Sometimes I do things for free and I still go overboard.  I forget what you said at the beginning of this thread as to whether you were doing this for a fee or not.  It doesn't make any difference, though does it?

So, I would "fix" it with a second cap so that the user is not discouraged from using it.  If it were going to be on display in a museum and seldom or never used, then I would certainly not "fix" it.  However, since this may be someone's daily driver, I would make the experience of using it a nice one.

My 2 cents

[Dennis Markham]

Thank you Bill.  It will be a couple hours yet before I get a chance to test out your theory, which I no doubt believe is accurate.  I was wondering about a small "cap" to replace that one.  I showed you that eBay listing with a similar subset listed.  I took the photo from that listing and blew it up a bit so I could see what is written there.  It is a 250 volt cap but I don't see a MF designation, only the letters MF. Maybe it just cannot be seen.

You're also correct in that the time I have invested in this "project" has long since passed by any monetary gain.  But I look at it now as a learning experience.  Unfortunately you now also have time invested with all the time it has taken you to educate me (us).

The attached photo was taken from this ebay listing:

http://tinyurl.com/2dgycaz

I enlarged it and flipped it upside down so it could be read easier.  From what I can see it reads:

ITW @ MF
47  K 250v
95995  103

It appears to be connected between L2 and GND just like you suggested I do with the 195A.  I'm going to give your suggestion a try.  If that resolves the issue I'm going to look locally for one of the smaller capacitors.

Thank you!

~Dennis

[Phonesrfun]

That is a 0.47 Mf cap, and is too light for the ringer involved.  With two 500 ohm coils in the ringer, it needs to be 2.0 MF, but still at 250 volts.  Modern ringers with 4,000 ohm windings all use half MF caps (.47 is the industry standard for a .5).

If you go to buy one, it cannot be a polarized capacitor.  Tantalum caps are polarized as many electrolytic caps.  They do make a non-polarized electrolytic which would be fine, as would a variety of other types, just as long as they have the voltage rating so they don't break down at 75 to 90 volts, and that is is rated around 2 MF.  250 volt ratings are commonly used which gives more than enough room for a 75 to 90 volt current to be applied.

[Dennis Markham]

Bill, I contacted a few places locally.  Eventually I was directed to a place that had a capacitor in stock.  The person I spoke with had one that was close...it's a 2MF 200 volt.  The business is called Galco Electronics and they appear to be nationwide.  She gave me that part number.  Searching their web site for that part number, here is the capacitor:

http://tinyurl.com/2esrojm

After doing some thinking I am leaning toward the 195A but this little do-hickey may be better. because of it's size.

Next on my list of things to do is pull that ringer wire off per your instructions and give that a try.

[Phonesrfun]

That would be a perfect cap.  200 volts is just fine, but $4.00??? I have one I will send you that is very similar that I paid 35 cents for.  You can have it for my cost, plus a 35 cent discount.  Since you kindly sent me a handset cord once, I'll even spring for the postage!

BTW, did you try it out with disconnecting the ringer yet?

[Dennis Markham]

Not yet, Bill.  I will report back soon.

[Dennis Markham]

Bill, you are THE Man.  I have a smile on my face that will probably last the rest of the evening!

I connected the ringer as you suggested and then connected my phone---the known "good" phone.  No dial click.  Perfect!  Just for grins I rang the line and of course the ringer did not ring.  I connected the 195A as you suggested and I had a ringing box and a phone that did not click in my ear.

I then removed the known "good" phone and attached the original B1 that had dial click.  The dial click remained.  I had actually caused the problem in the dial by trying to adjust the contacts thinking the problem was with them.  

So I adjusted the dial contacts per Steve Hilsz' suggestions that I posted previously.  Guess what?  No dial click.  The phone works normally now.  

I think I can successfully mount the 195A atop the larger capacitor.  The bracket that holds that capacitor into the box should allow me to sandwich the 195A on top of the old one.  I will have to run to my local hardware store to see if I can get a couple of screws that are about 3/4 of an inch longer.  If so, I'm in business.  

Bill, I appreciate the offer for your capacitor (and to ship it to me) but for now I'll plan on using this 195A.  I have had it kicking around for a while.  It came with some 101A induction coils I bought a while back.  I checked and the top of the box will lower with the 195A resting atop the old capacitor without interference.

Thanks to everyone that responded to this post.  I really appreciate all the help.  I certainly have learned something from this experience about the older boxes.

Bill thank you specifically for taking the time to research this and help me out!  Attached is a little something from me to you!

[Phonesrfun]

Aw gee, I am touched by the expression of appreciation.  I can now say I have been kissed by a cow!

[Dennis Markham]

Bill, can you see any reason why I can't clip the rest of the wires from the 195A?  Or perhaps I can just tape off the spade tips.  I thought it might make a neater install--should I decide to use that capacitor.

[Phonesrfun]

Bill, can you see any reason why I can't clip the rest of the wires from the 195A?  Or perhaps I can just tape off the spade tips.  I thought it might make a neater install--should I decide to use that capacitor.

Since those other two leads are isolated from the other section of the capacitor, you could just screw both of them down to one of the ones of the other section.  For instance, I don't know which capacitor lead you connected to the GND terminal, but let's say red.  Just screw the two free leads from the 195A to GND along with the red.  That way, you don't need to cut or tape.

[Dennis Markham]

Thanks again, Bill.