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HP Thin Client Project

Started by DavePEI, November 02, 2013, 08:17:32 PM

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DavePEI

Hi All:

I have begun a new VOIP project, building another tandem VOIP server for my system. My intention is to detail it on-line from start to finish to help others going through the same process. I will detail several ways of doing it, and not only the way I chose myself, so you will get somewhat of a grounding in all ways.

How I wish there had been such a resource back when I started out. I am not an expert, but will share the knowledge that I have myself in the hope that it helps someone!

I am converting an HP t5730 Thin Client into an asterisk tandem server as a back-up machine for my C*Net connection. I picked up a t5730 for $50 plus shipping, and have ordered but not received an expansion kit for it for $50 plus shipping. The computer itself arrived yesterday.

The t5730 has an AMD Sempron 2100+ processor running at 1 ghz., and 1 gig of ram and a 1 gig flash memory. the t5730 is shipped with Windows XP embedded on it. Thin clients do not have a hard drive - they were meant as a basic computer for retail networking applications. They do have an advantage in size; a footprint of about the size of a sheet of paper and low power needs - 2.4 amps for the t5730. They have no cooling fan, taking advantage of the low power dissipation of the machine. They are ideal for wall mounting.

The t5730 is equipped with 8 USB sockets, DVI and VGA video, 10/100/1000 RJ-45 network interface, mouse, keyboard, and serial and parallel ports. The PCI port is pretty useless without the expansion kit, and needed if you want to  support a PCI-E gateway pbx 4 FXS FXO Asterisk card.  These cards typically may be purchased for $80 to $120 on eBay - less if you are very lucky. North American cards cost considerably more, but may be more reliable. The expansion kit also provides an additional parallel and serial port.

Suggestion: I was lucky enough to be able to find an expansion kit - but they are very hard to find. If you can't find one, consider setting up a system as outlined in the following paragraph, and you can expand it whenever you can find the expansion. Though I will soon have the kit, I will be setting the system up with an ATA first, as I already have a spare.

A workable system could be put together using only an "Analog Telephone Adapter". See https://www.ckts.info/atainstall.php for a bit more information on ATAs. Most ATAs will not support dial phones. There are exceptions, though. I find my Grandstream HT-502 ATAs work quite well with legacy dial phones, supporting two FXS ports and can often be found used on eBay for $30 to $40. Grandstream's HT-503 ATAs also supporting dial pulse, support one FXS and one FXO port (appx. $50). For a minimal system, one would get you started.

If one wants to get really fancy, as I have with my system in the museum, you can use a Cisco 2650XM router with Asterisk - Chad Perkins set up one on the museum system a couple of years ago, bless him, and it is used to provide multiple FXO ports for interfacing my Step Demo switches to C*Net. I could not have done it without him, and my son, Jeffery's help. Legacy PBXs like the Panasonic can be interfaced to an FXO port from your VOIP machine. But I digress from the subject at hand.

I am told an install of DSL (Darn Small Linux) and Asterisk will fit within the 1 gigabyte limit of the thin clients. Larger Linux distributions will run into space limitations.

When my thin client arrived, I discovered it had been shipped without Windows or any operating system on its flash card, not a large problem since Linux will be replacing the o/s on the system. Meanwhile, the vendor is sending me  a USB drive with the o/s installation files on it so I can flash the drive with windows so I can continue my experimentation. As mentioned, Linux will eventually replace that.

We are going to try an experiment with the computer - we are going to see it the machine will recognize a USB hard drive. I have a couple of external laptop drives here which are USB powered and which hold up to 250 gig of information on them. If it will, it will be ideal, and can be mounted on the side of the computer. If the computer will recognize the drive, a full installation of both Linux and Asterisk will be possible.

If this will work, it will be ideal, as Flash memory doesn't like a whole lot of disk access, and may not survive linux/asterisk's frequent writes/rewrites during operation over the long run. It does work for many - I am concerned with long term reliability. Aside from this, if the machine will recognize the full drive, it will give the machine an immense amount of disk memory.

I will keep updating this thread as we go through this process, and let you know how it turns out, and what we found necessary to do. I am not an expert using Linux or Asterisk - thankfully my son is a Linux and Cisco trained systems administrator and he is a great help when I get myself into problems! There are many really knowledgeable C*Net Gurus - you can contact them by joining the C*Net VOIP list:

http://lists.ckts.info/mailman/listinfo/voip

This thread will only show one way to do it, and perhaps not the cheapest, but will give people another option for VOIP and C*Net. I will periodically update you on its process!

Dave  

Photo t5730 with expansion module. The base thin client weighs 3.5 lb and is (W x D x H)   1.8 x 8.47 x 10.5 in. Second photo, front and back photos of my t5730 minus expansion.
The Telephone Museum of Prince Edward Island:
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/museum.html
Free Admission - Call (902) 651-2762 to arrange a visit!
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DavePEI

#1
More Basics on VOIP via C*Net:

There is more than one way to connect to VOIP.

1) The simplest is connecting via an ATA hosted on someone else's server. This requires an ATA alone. There are a few people willing to leave their server open to connections from other's ATA. In this case, you don't require your own server. See the C*Net page for more detail.

https://www.ckts.info/

This can be problematic, as your connection may be slower than having your own server. Secondly, due to security concerns, it is getting harder and harder to find anyone who is willing to leave their servers open to outside connections due to the large amount of VOIP server hacking present on the Internet.

2) The other is the option we are discussing here. Having your own server and using a built in Asterisk card or an external ATA to communicate with it. This can make for a faster connection, and you control the security settings on your system.

I should mention that you need to have a direct connection to your ethernet from each internet appliance. As with multiple computer connections, you need a connection to each VOIP device. eg., one line to your VOIP server, one to each ATA(s), if used, one connection you your VOIP router (i.e. Cisco voice router). How is this done?

Really quite simple, but it does require an Ethernet switch (cost $10 to $40 for consumer grade devices (D-Link, 3 Com, Netgear, etc., ranging to far more for commercial grade switches (Cisco, Nortel, HP, etc.). For home use, the cheaper switches will work fine. You connect your ethernet line to the switch. From the switch, there will be a ethernet line to each internet appliance, including to your VOIP devices. This will include a line to your Internet computer.

The switch will automatically switch the signal from and to each device automatically. You can't connect the devices in parallel - you must use a proper automatic switch.

While this is very basic, and most of the readers who follow this thread will understand this already, I am mentioning it for those who are really just starting out. Select a switch which had enough ports to run all of your appliances. If you run into the case where you run out of ports, a second switch may be put on one of the lines from the first, There are many manufacturers of switches - chose whichever you want, but make sure they support 10/100/1000.

As I mentioned, this is for beginners, but I thought any discussion on VOIP should include this information. If anyone has more information you feel should be included here, please chime in. There are a number of people on the Forum who take part in C*net or other forms of VOIP.

I hope the following diagram will help de-mystify the interconnections needed to set up a home asterisk connection via a server for someone new to Asterisk and C*Net...

Dave
The Telephone Museum of Prince Edward Island:
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/museum.html
Free Admission - Call (902) 651-2762 to arrange a visit!
C*NET 1-651-0001

DavePEI

#2
Hi All:

Well, the computer likes the drive!

We now have Lubuntu 13.10 (Ubuntu light) loaded on a small 2.5 inch external USB drive, and minutes ago, I booted the machine up into Linux for the first time!

So, now there will be no worries about the size of the installation - it is a Seagate ST500LM012 500 Gigabyte drive.

Additionally, I will be able to set it up for dual boot - by setting bios so that it boots first off USB, and secondly off its flash drive, windows, all I will have to do to boot in WIndows is unplug the USB cable from the hard drive.

The hard drive in its case is small enough to be mounted with fabricated straps on the VESA mount on the side of the computer.

It'll be a couple of days before we set up asterisk on it, but I just wanted to let you know about the success of the operation!

These external drives sell for about $50 - I already had several here.

One of the biggest limitations of these machines has been defeated! Yay!

Dave
The Telephone Museum of Prince Edward Island:
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/museum.html
Free Admission - Call (902) 651-2762 to arrange a visit!
C*NET 1-651-0001

unbeldi

#3
Quote
One of the biggest limitations of these machines has been defeated! Yay!
I didn't think that would be any issue in any case, but now you can set up a boot partition and minimal operating system for which 1GB storage is more than enough, so you don't have to boot the box with the external disk installed. Don't install a swap partition on the flash. If you install asterisk on a separate partition on the external drive, you can simply plug the disk into other computers and run the same installation of Asterisk on any of them and save yourself repeated installations and configurations, as long as the architecture is compatible.

DavePEI

#4
Quote from: unbeldi on November 03, 2013, 03:51:43 PM
I didn't think that would be any issue in any case, but now you can set up a boot partition and minimal operating system for which 1GB storage is more than enough, so you don't have to boot the box with the external disk installed. If you install asterisk on a separate partition on the external drive, you can simply plug the disk into other computers and run the same installation of Asterisk on any of them and save yourself repeated installations and configurations.
Yes, it works great! One advantage, it I can put and leave Windows XP Embedded back on the Flash disk in the machine and dual boot the machine as well, by simply unplugging the drive while leaving the flash as it is.

So, it is a good start, and as you say, it will allow me to take the system to another machine easily as well.

I had wondered if there would be a BIOS issue which would keep it from recognizing the whole drive, but all 500 gigs were recognized!

So it was a fun day's playing! Best of all is it only cost me a spare disk I had anyway! Its not such a thin Client anymore!

Small update the next day - spent part of today playing with the lubuntu installation and connected it to the network for the first time. The system was running almost all day, and it is behaving well. Now, I have to figure out how to install asterisk on it :)

Dave
The Telephone Museum of Prince Edward Island:
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/museum.html
Free Admission - Call (902) 651-2762 to arrange a visit!
C*NET 1-651-0001

DavePEI

#5
Quote from: unbeldi on November 03, 2013, 03:51:43 PM
Quote
One of the biggest limitations of these machines has been defeated! Yay!
I didn't think that would be any issue in any case, but now you can set up a boot partition and minimal operating system for which 1GB storage is more than enough, so you don't have to boot the box with the external disk installed. Don't install a swap partition on the flash. If you install asterisk on a separate partition on the external drive, you can simply plug the disk into other computers and run the same installation of Asterisk on any of them and save yourself repeated installations and configurations, as long as the architecture is compatible.

Agreed. My intention, though is to put PBX in a flash on a USB thumb drive and install it from there to the built in fash card, while allowing booting to the Hard Drive and the lububtu for other applications and disk storage. That way I can get some badly needed practice using Linux. That is my greatest short-falling - I have been using DOS and Windows since home computers were first available and am definitely a very experienced user with them, but have done very little with Linux. It isn't as easy to learn when one gets older. Working with Asterisk, I need to learn more!

But, we are having problems getting the PBX in a Flash onto the thumb drive so I can install it. For some reason, following the instructions on their site, we cannot get the flash to boot. So, once we get around that it will have dual capabilities as I wanted.

I will merely have to set it for the USB for boot followed by Flash for the secondary boot. So, if I pull the USB cable for the hard drive, it will load instead off the flash memory.

Anyway, there is some progress - the case was damaged in the original machine, and I was able to find an empty but undamaged case, and have swapped cases. I also picked up some M4 Cheese head screws to fit the VESA mount (I am making straps to mount the little external drive to one side of the case) Note: All three smaller sizes of VESA mounts, use M4 screws to fit the threads. That was one thing I learned in the past few days. They screw in perfectly.

Also, I have run the machine on the hard drive for two solid days and it is still working like a champ.

A Windows custom XP embedded install has been received from the vendor to replace its flash operating system, and I temporarily also have it working off the flash card, but that will be short lived as I replace that with linux and Asterisk installed with PBX in a Flash.

I will report again when we successfully load Asterisk on it. I did read somewhere that the formatting program doesn't like Kingston USB sticks, so that may be the problem with making the PBX in a Flash install stick.

Dave
The Telephone Museum of Prince Edward Island:
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/museum.html
Free Admission - Call (902) 651-2762 to arrange a visit!
C*NET 1-651-0001

DavePEI

#6
I have decided to change my plans somewhat. While experts like John Novack correctly recommend a distribution of ASTLinux for loading on the 1 gigabyte flash memory of the t1530, I want to keep with the larger PBX in a Flash to maintain complete interchangeability with the PBX in a Flash distribution on my other Asterisk server.

I did finally get a good copy of the PBX in a Flash installer on a thumb drive - for some reason the program which writes the image to the disk didn't like the Kingston drive - I retried it with a Lexar disk, and no problem.

However, PBX in a Flash takes more space than AstLinux - too much space to fit on the 1 gigabyte internal flash drive, so I have decided to prepare another external USB disk drive to hold the PBX in a Flash installation. It can be configured exactly as my other system, and as a result, should one fail, I would be able to swap it for this machine for a speedy no fuss replacement. In theory, I could also plug it into any other machine and with very few changes, have it work fine. If I wanted to boot the t5730 up in Windows, I could unplug the hard drive and let it boot up off its own flash drive, and if I want to boot it up in the full Lubuntu, I would just plug in the drive with Lubuntu installed.

So, for the sake of versatility, I have decided to go this route.

I have located a case for an external 2.5 inch disk with a USB controller on eBay for under $10, and have been given several laptop IDE drives which I can use with it. I will place a drive in the case, format it then load the PBX in a Flash distribution on it.

That will install CentOS on it, plus FreePBX. While some don't like FreePBX because its log and configuration files are quite different from those used in other programs, as I have been using it anyway for an extended time, and not the other programs, this will be the easiest way for me to go for my own use.

The only thing that made me decide this, is I am already used to working with FreePBX, and I really don't want to re-invent the wheel. For others, it might be easier to go with Astlinux, shoehorned on the 1 gig flash drive.

But herein lies the fun of these machines - there are so many things you can do with them, and so many ways to do it!

One other thing I should point out - the flash card in the machine is fed with a 44 pin IDE connector - you can connect a 44 pin IDE cable to it rather than the card, and run that cable directly to a 44 pin 2 1/2 inch drive, or to a 4 or 6 gigabyte Hitachi MicroDrive. The only problem is there is not enough room inside the computer  to mount a 2 1/2 inch drive - it would have to be mounted externally. However, a microdrive could be crammed inside the case.  To me, the advantage of the USB drive, is, it is already in a case, and easy to plug in outside the computer case, while maintaining the existing Windows installation on the Flash.

I am still waiting for my expansion case and card for the machine. When it comes, I will be able to use a normal TDM410P asterisk card on the system as well.

I will report further as things proceed - but the main thing is I hope something here may give you ideas for customization. Meanwhile, here is a photo of the computer with its cover removed. The PCI port and flash memory are shown. There is a 44 pin IDE port feeding the flash memory, hidden under the flash card.

Alternatively, by shopping carefully, you could also pick up a Hitachi 6 gigabyte MicroDrive and Mini-PCI CF Compact Flash adapter for under $20 which can be connected using a 6 inch female to female 44 pin drive cable (appx. $3.) to the flash socket on the board - just another option if 6 gigabytes is sufficient for your needs. Set jumper on the adapter for Master. There is room inside the machine to mount this requiring some ingenuity on your part.

Microdrives are a hard disk reduced to the size of a Compact Flash card:
• Interface: CompactFlash CF+ Type II 1-inch
• Capacity: 6GB
• RPM: 3600 RPM
• Cache: 128KB
• Average Seek Time: 12ms
• Average Latency: 8.3ms
• Media Transfer rate of up to 15MB/sec
• Formatted with FAT 32 file system

See photos below.

Dave
The Telephone Museum of Prince Edward Island:
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/museum.html
Free Admission - Call (902) 651-2762 to arrange a visit!
C*NET 1-651-0001

DavePEI

#7
We ran into some problems installing PBX in a Flash on the machine - although bios does recognize the external USB hard drive we used for installation, the install didn't install the correct driver with the result that after installation, the system wouldn't boot.

Now, I installed Lubuntu on another identical drive, and it works like a charm - the CentOS install doesn't install a driver for the drive, hence the problem.

So, now, I am awaiting a hard drive to install in the place of the internal flash card, then can load it again, this time onto an internal IDE drive.

Meanwhile, the experimentation continues with a pair of Mini-ITX motherboards I was given. I am awaiting a pair of cases for them which will arrive hopefully tomorrow, and then, I can check and make sure both boards are good, and a conventional install of Linux and PIAF can be done on them. More details on that project later.

So, I may be flipping back and forth between both projects as items arrive. This is fun  - I am sure many of you have the idea I enjoy experimentation, and if you do, you are correct.

More reports as soon as possible!

Dave
The Telephone Museum of Prince Edward Island:
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/museum.html
Free Admission - Call (902) 651-2762 to arrange a visit!
C*NET 1-651-0001

twocvbloke

I once ran my old Compaq Contura 4/25 on a 512MB CF card in pretty much the same manner as what you're planning, it was the biggest CF card it'd take but was a lot faster than a regular hard drive, worked well until the screen failed... :D

Personally I'd suggest you get a CF card instead of a MicroDrive, the latter were often used in music players like ipods, and were prone to failure even with careful use (it's the Hitachi syndrome, their HDDs are not that good), you can get some decent sized CF cards to use as HDDs (technically they're SSDs, but that's not important), the advantage is they're silent & reliable and they use little energy, and have much faster seek times than HDDs, handy for operating things that need to access data fast... :)

MiniITX is fun though, but I haven't dealt with that for years, used to have a couple of those boards, but one conked out and I sold the other off, those ones were VIA's own brand boards, these days it's pretty much standard hardware on reduced-size boards, but still has a lot of use in creating custom small form factor computers... ;D

And pics of my Contura 4/25's upgrades, first one is a trial fit where I found I needed to insulate the back of the adaptor PCB, and before I got the 512MB card, 2nd is the 512 card fitted and the 3rd was installing Windows 3.1 rather quickly... :D

DavePEI

#9
Quote from: twocvbloke on November 20, 2013, 04:16:40 AM
I once ran my old Compaq Contura 4/25 on a 512MB CF card in pretty much the same manner as what you're planning, it was the biggest CF card it'd take but was a lot faster than a regular hard drive, worked well until the screen failed... :D
The problem with CF cards, is they have a finite number of read-write cycles - once they go past that, they are no good. And Linux, Asterisk, and FreePBX which are installed by PBX in a Flash do lots of logging and have tons of configuration files - that will destroy a CF in quick order. Normally when people run asterisk on the interior flash card on an HP, they have to eliminate the TMP directory so it can't log. Sure, you can turn off the logging to a CF card, but then, there goes your security and the ability to watch who is connecting to the system. (I have caught, and banned, many people trying to break through onto my system using SIP thanks to these logs). How disappointed these hackers must be when they discover they can't get an outside line on my system, only my Strowger demos! No free long distance for them on my bill!

I have ordered the Microdrives only to play with. I got the two for $4 each. I have regular hard drives which I will be using with the Thin Clients when the expansion module arrives, and the Epia boards, of course will use normal hard drives. I have been told Microdrives stand up well to thin Client use - what kills them more in IPods and Music Players are the shocks they are subjected to in every day use. Despite that, I trust real hard drives more. But they will be fun to play with.

I wish I could afford real 32 gigabyte SATA SSDs for the machines, but the price is way too high. But it would be nice!

My cases for the Epia machines are in Moncton, and should be over to the Island today. I can't wait to check out the two boards, make sure they boot, etc. I am concerned about the high winds forecast for today and tomorrow - if they get too high, the trucks won''t be able to cross the Confederation Bridge to the Island, as when they winds are too high, high sided vehicles are banned from the bridge.

Still too dark to see if we got any flurries over night - with these winds, come the possibility we may get the first snow for the season.

Dave
The Telephone Museum of Prince Edward Island:
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/museum.html
Free Admission - Call (902) 651-2762 to arrange a visit!
C*NET 1-651-0001

DavePEI

#10
Bad news to report on the two Epia motherboards - one won''t boot, and the other has a messed up bios! Both were quite early machines (2002), and alas lack functions required for Aterisk in their CPUs. Unfortunately, that means I will have to look for a good later  Mini TIX board, possibly with an Atom processor to go in the new ITX case and with the new power supply. Now, I have too much invested not to complete the project.

I am still awaiting the expansion case for the HP Thin Clients - hopefully it will arrive soon and I can get the Thin Client build done soon.

Despite the frustration, this is fun, and while I have built and fixed a lot of computers over the past 25 years, you never stop learning! Better yet when you can combine two interests, computers and telephony.

Dave
The Telephone Museum of Prince Edward Island:
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/museum.html
Free Admission - Call (902) 651-2762 to arrange a visit!
C*NET 1-651-0001

twocvbloke

The two MiniITX boards I had were an EPIA 5000 and an EPIA M10000, it was the 5000 (gloriously speedy 533MHz!!) the had conked out, wouldn't power up at all, the M10000 lasted nicely, wish I never sold it actually as it was a good board, and I still have it's PicoPSU supply (12v supply, plugs directly into the ATX socket, not very powerful though!!) and the supply I took out of the Travla C134 case I used to have (brilliant case that, very compact, bit on the noisy side cos of the 40mm fans though!!)... :D

The projects some people put together with MiniITX hardware though is quite amusing, their website, if you haven't been there already, is well worth a look around:

http://www.mini-itx.com/

DavePEI

#12
Quote from: twocvbloke on November 22, 2013, 05:26:36 AM
The two MiniITX boards I had were an EPIA 5000 and an EPIA M10000, it was the 5000 (gloriously speedy 533MHz!!) the had conked out, wouldn't power up at all, the M10000 lasted nicely, wish I never sold it actually as it was a good board, and I still have it's PicoPSU supply (12v supply, plugs directly into the ATX socket, not very powerful though!!) and the supply I took out of the Travla C134 case I used to have (brilliant case that, very compact, bit on the noisy side cos of the 40mm fans though!!)... :D
Now, that is funny - and enlightening. I was sent two boards, an Epia 1000 - that is the one that is completely dead, and the other was an M150. The second, the M-150 is somewhat operational, but every time you disconnect the power supply, it loses all of its BIOS settings, despite the fact I put a brand new BIOS battery in it! I can't complain, as they were sent for the cost of postage - I just wish I had had an ITX power supply here  so I could have checked them before I ordered the cases and power supplies for the two.

So now, I am looking for another known good (checked) Mini-ITX motherboard and processor without costing an arm and a leg. I have sort of gotten myself stuck now, having spent so much on the project so far.

Just wish the rest of what I need for the HP would arrive so I could continue with it!

Dave
The Telephone Museum of Prince Edward Island:
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/museum.html
Free Admission - Call (902) 651-2762 to arrange a visit!
C*NET 1-651-0001

twocvbloke

I think the problem with the early MiniITX boards was the integrated CPU, great idea on paper, but a lot of the boards were subject to installations in odd places (vehicles, mobile computers like my M10000 in the C134, or in a life-size model of Leela from Futurama, yeah, seriously, someone did that!!!), so they tend to break the solder joints, which can result in dead boards, either that or something just broke down and nobody really bothered to go for warranty repairs as they were pretty basic boards... :)

As for a PSU, you can just use a regular desktop ATX power supply, they just came up with the smaller PSUs for MiniITX solely for installation in small or custom cases, as they don't require a lot of power anyway so the PSUs can be made rather small... :)

DavePEI

#14
Ok, today I broke down and ordered a new motherboard:

BIOSTAR NM70I-847 Intel Celeron 847 1.1GHz 2C/2T BGA1023
Intel NM70 Mini ITX Motherboard/CPU Combo

Western Digital WD Blue WD3200AAKX 320GB 7200 RPM 16MB
Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive Bare Drive

G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3
12800) Desktop Memory Model F3-12800CL9D-2GBNQ

I will use this instead of the bad board which was given to me. It will be going into the CoolerMaster case, and is just big enough to give room for the asterisk card. Of course, this means I am back to the waiting game, but at least means that I should be able to build up the machine as I am used to without using questionable used parts. Alas, I had no more SATA drives, so I had to purchase one for this board...

Now hopefully this, and the expansion case for the HP will arrive in the next few days.

Meanwhile, I am going to try to get the second VIA board working (the one which won't keep its BIOS settings). I have changed the bios battery in it without effect, but will check the solder joints and capacitors in the vicinity of the bios and battery in the hope I can resurrect that board, too.

Frustrating!

Dave
The Telephone Museum of Prince Edward Island:
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/museum.html
Free Admission - Call (902) 651-2762 to arrange a visit!
C*NET 1-651-0001