Interesting differences between a Canadian and American 500 set

[phoneguy06]

Hi all,

The humble 500 in the attached photos is a 1981 Northern Telecom QSQM500AX set that I purchased the other day at my local antique market. I bought it specifically because I knew that Nortel eventually started including its own inovations in the electronics of their sets, especially in later examples such as this one. For one thing, its network, the QNB425E1A, is similar, but different from the later ITT printed circuit board, as the Nortel variety is a combination of circuit board and screw terminals. Other differences include a slightly different font for the dial plate, the fact that the date codes are always printed towards the front edge of the baseplate like an early Western Electric, and every part, even at this late date, including the crimp on the satin spade-modular line cord, is dated NE 81, whereas I believe other companies like ITT had discontinued the practise. Here in Canada, 6 hole receiver caps are not collectible, as NT never changed over to seven holes, right to the very end. Look at those ringer gongs: one is brass, and the other is aluminum! I think it looks kind of interesting! Northern Telecom produced 500s both for the Canadian and US markets, but only produced non- and quarter-modular variations for domestic distribution, whereas the US received full, half, and quarter modular varieties, which explains why I have never seen a local full-modular 500. This is my first domestically produced 500, which was also rented and later sold by our local telephone company; it's nothing special, but at least it's part of local history.

[JorgeAmely]

Interesting photos. Are the gongs made of different metals? Brass, Steel?

Can you report on the inscription of each gong?

[McHeath]

Very interesting report.  That network is different than anything else I've seen here in California.  This phone was made in 81' eh?  It has the look of a WE phone from the late 60's or very early 70's, hardwired thickish handset cord, shiny bottom, etc.  Wonder if the bell ringer volume symbols were chosen so that they did not have to worry about putting the "Loud" word in English and French?  What kind of dial is that, it looks like some sort of #9. 

Any idea how many 500s were made by NE? 

[Dan/Panther]

How available are those 6 hole caps, and are they available in all colors.
D/P

[foots]

I'm with Dan/Panther - how 'bout them 6 hole caps?

[Dan/Panther]

Personally I'd think I'd buy up a bunch of those 6 hole caps, and sell them to the less fortunate below the 54th.
D/P

[Jester]

I was really wanting to see this thread go places.  I thought phoneguy 06 would have opened up a can of worms, since there are many subtle differences to be found between any NE design and its American counterpart.  I have to admit, though, that I did not do my part, and I have something to add.  Pictured below is my NE Cherry Red 500-- from 1957!  As the date indicates, it should be all soft plastic-- and it is! (jsowers, are you reading this?!)  As with every other NE phone I have this one did show signs of at least a mild refurb.  The receiver element had been replaced with a much newer unit, and the dial was a 7C from 1964.  It did not have a color code on it, and I suspect they may have never done this in Canada, as the other NE dials in my posession aren't marked either.  I managed to scare up a NE 7D dated 1958 and installed it, mounting the bezel off the "64 dial in place of the black bezel.  I also replaced the newer receiver with a U-1 from 1960.  Now for the differences.

As you can see in the photos, the base is glossier than the American versions & is embossed "Made In Canada.  The dates are also printed differently on this base.  The year is obvious, but when in that year is indicated by Roman Numeral 3-- for third quarter-- instead of mm/dd.  Also notice, III is turned 90 degrees in reference to the year.  The date on the network is marked in a similar fashion, along with referenced patent dates, a NE trend.  Also notice where this info. is placed on the network housing.  Something I didn't photograph but is worth mentioning, the date stamp on the lower inside lip of the housing is in black, and it only has dd/mm/yy, as there was only one plant producing thes phones in Canada.  See pics. below.

[jsowers]

As the date indicates, it should be all soft plastic-- and it is! (jsowers, are you reading this?!)

I'm reading it! I'm reading it! So even though they replaced the dial, they kept the dial bezel? Very odd. I guess if it ain't broke, they don't fix it, as the saying goes in Southern Canada.     Soft plastic NEs are not common at all. I've seen them in annual reports from NE, and maybe one or two in an auction, but never this close until now. I don't have enough NEs to make many assumptions on them. Thanks for pointing out all the dates. I don't think I've ever seen them done like that before, in those spots, with the Roman numerals. WE did that on some of their ringers, but not all of them. That's a very rare red NE you have. Thanks for posting it.

Has anyone else noticed that the brown NE does have a center hole in the mouthpiece, but not the earpiece? Funny that they would make one hole but not the other.

[Dennis Markham]

Stephen, nice phone.  Glancing at that phone one would not be able to tell the difference between a Western and a Northern.  It has all the appearances of a soft plastic Model 500.

I have limited experience with Northern Electric telephones because I avoided buying them from N.E.  However I did refurbish a black N.E. Model 591 a while back.  It was dated 1960.  Because it had a frequency ringer I replaced it with a Western Electric C4A.  I disassembled this phone like I do all the others and cleaned each part.  It wasn't until I was reassembling the phone that I noticed the parts did not go back together as easily as the Western's.  For example the screws that hold on the dial bezel.  I remember as I put them back in I had to twist them with more effort than normal.  Each of these screws was cleaned--each thread so it wasn't dirt causing the extra effort.  I thought perhaps manufacturing tolerances were not as strict.  I had also noticed the same thing when reassembling the dial.  It took more effort to get all the parts to go together.  Having had some (limited) experience in the automotive manufacturing field I knew that different vendors make parts that ultimately have to work together.  There are plus/minus tolerance numbers.  It is possible to get two parts that have to be mated that may both be on the extreme end of the tolerance scale.  For example one part that must be joined with another may be on the large end of the acceptable range and the mated part may be on the small end of the acceptable range.  I thought perhaps that is what was happening with this particular phone.  

I suppose it's not fair to paint them all with the same brush so to speak so I did not reply to this thread with my limited experience with these phones.  Another difference to this model 591, made in 1960 is that it had an anodized base rather than a painted one.  I believe the housing was soft plastic.    The footpads were neoprene.  Also the hook switch actuator is made of a white plastic rather than the black we normally see on the W.E. sets.  

My impression after using the refurbished phone was that it did not share the quality of its Western Electric counter part of the same vintage.

[Jester]

I had no idea that NE went to anodized bases that early, Dennis.  I recall reading somewhere, though, that Bell System was forced to make NE a completely seperate company in late 1956(?), which might explain the many different manufacturing practices & a certain "cheapness" to the product that becomes noticeable in the 60's.  The other reason I really wanted to change the dial is because the contacts on the '64 dial had brightly colored plastic insulated leads instead of the cloth insulation I'm used to seeing.  The '58 dial I installed still had cloth covered leads. Something I noticed about both these earlier phones, the dial bezels both have "Operator" under the 0. 

Jonathan, you must be right about soft plastic NE's-- especially the colored ones.  I'm wondering if colors were introduced in Canada starting in 1953, or if it didn't happen until '57.  Also, do you think the four discontinued colors were offered by NE?

[Dennis Markham]

Stephen, I'm not sure what you mean about the "Operator".  Don't the W.E. 500's all have Operator under the 0?

By the way the dial card on the black 591 is from Ohio, not original to that phone. 

[Jester]

Dennis, my reference is to Canadian phones.  There are quite a few NE/NT 500's that only have"0" by the tenth finger hole.  Someone suggested in another thread that Canada, being bilingual, would have never spelled that word out on their dial faces because the spelling is different for French.  There are too many examples of NE dials with operator on them for that to be true.  An interesting parallel to this are the few examples of 150B porcelain number plates I've seen that have only 0 in the tenth finger hole.

[Dan/Panther]

Is the word Operator on the Red NE an illusion, or is it in a straight line, compared to curved on WE.
Basically the only difference I see bewteen the NE Red 500, and WE of the same vintage, is the words;  "Made in Canada",  on the bottom. What would two identical phones bring in price difference, and why ?
D/P

[Dennis Markham]

Stephen, I understand now that you were not comparing N.E. to W.E. with regard to the word Operator.  I have no idea in fact if that dial bezel on the black phone was original from Northern Electric but assume it was.  Now that you mention it I do recall reading about the lack of the word Operator due to the dual languages in Canada.

Dan, my experience from watching them on eBay is that the N.E. phones bring in less than the Western Electric counter parts.   I think to the casual buyer though, they have no clue.  They see the word Electric and it's good enough.  I've seen sellers list their phones as "General Electric" for W.E. phones.  It's not unusual that the lay person would get confused, Western Electric, Northern Electric, North Electric, Automatic Electric, General Telephone, AT&T, IT&T, etc.  It's a telephone jungle out there!

[jsowers]

Jonathan, you must be right about soft plastic NE's-- especially the colored ones.  I'm wondering if colors were introduced in Canada starting in 1953, or if it didn't happen until '57.  Also, do you think the four discontinued colors were offered by NE?

I've seen so few of these that I shouldn't even hazard a guess. My annual report from NE with two color phones pictured is from 1958 and your phone is a 1957. Chances are that they used the later color palette and not the earlier one, but I would love to be proven wrong on that one. It's also possible they used the "two-tone colors" of red, moss green, ivory and dark gray and not the other four. I'll look that report up and see what color the phones are. My memory says red and moss green, but it's been a few years. And I've never seen a color chip chart from NE, ever. If anyone has one, please let us know.