I'm working on a Western Electric Model 102 - Connecting to a 334A Subscriber set.
When everything is connected I'm getting dial click in the ear piece as the dial comes to rest. I have had experience with this in the past and have tried my known method to eliminate it in this case.
Here are the details.
E1 handset - Wired properly.
B1 Body - 5H Dial.
3 Conductor Desk Stand Cord for Side Tone Service
334A Subscriber set (Ringer Box)
In the past when there has been what I call "dial click" it was a case of the BB contacts mating with the W bar at the bottom of the contacts while R and BK were still touching. With the help of Steve Hilsz I was able to adjust the contact just above R to eliminate this problem. In essence the two contacts "R" and "BB" must float when the dial is first turned slightly off-normal.
I tinkered with the 5H dial and was unable to eliminate the click.
I replaced the dial with another 5H dial and still get the click.
I then replaced the second 5H dial with a 4H dial---same thing.
This is my first experience with a side-tone set so perhaps I'm missing something obvious that causes the annoying click in the ear piece.
The handset cord is wired as normal....white to "W" on the dial, Black to "BK" and Red to "R" on the dial.
The mounting cord is wired Red to "R" on the dial, Green to "GRN" on the left stack and Yellow to "Y" on the stack.
I have jumpered "W" to "BB" and "Y" to "BK".
The problem I had with dial click in the past--when Steve gave me some ideas was on a Model 302 with a 101A Induction Coil. Steve said at the time that if the condenser were a source of the trouble the click would not have been present with the red wire to "C" on the coil disconnected. I did not try that with this ringer box. Is it correct to assume "C" on in the box is as "C" on the 101A induction coil?
I know it sounds confusing so if I wasn't clear on the problem I can re-state it. I would appreciate any suggestions. I'm running out of hair.......... :)
Thanks
~Dennis
Sometimes going back to the basics helps in solving these problems.
Dials have two pair of contacts. One to pulse the circuit between tip and ring and another to short the receiver so when you dial, the interruption of the line current is not heard by the user.
Could it be possible that the pair that shorts the receiver is opening too early? Before the dial comes to rest?
In a later dial, such as 7x series, the short to the receiver takes place by turning the dial just slightly. Maybe there is something bent in the old dial that requires less travel of the wheel before the short to the receiver goes away.
On the 5H dial the receiver contacts open the receiver, rather than shunting it. Same with a #4 and a #6 dial.
Dennis:
Can you get a good picture of the hookswitch and the dial, with all the connections?
Thanks
Thanks Jorge and Bill for your responses. Bill, I will take some photos. Going by Bingster's diagram here:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=784.0
I did make sure that the hook switch leafs BK-Y "make" before GN-W. I AM getting a slight clicking sound when lifted off hook but not nearly as obnoxious as the click when the dial comes to rest. The pulses are not heard during rewind of the dial.
I'll report back with photos.
I like those color coded wiring diagrams.
Jim
Jim, Darrin (Bingster) did a great job on those. I've referred to them often in the past.
OK, here are the photos. One the one close up of the dial contacts, the black wires are wrong. I had just put them on before I took the photo. The others are correct.
Mounting Cord
Red to R (Dial)
Green to GN
Yellow - Y
Handset Cord
Black to BK (Dial)
White to W (Dial)
Red to R (Dial)
Jumpers
W to BB (Dial)
BK to Y (Dial)
I made the photos full strength so they can be enlarged for easier viewing of the connections.
Bingster,
These are really nice, and very easy to read . Did you do any other of the wiring diagrams?
It would be neat to have a diagram thread of various models on the technical page.
Jim
Now that I re-read your post, I see that the click happens when the dial comes to rest. This would indicate that either the dial switch that opens during the dialing is closing too soon, or that there is DC getting into the receiver circuit. DC in the receiver could be caused by something being wired wrong, or back to that cap in the subset. The capacitor in the early subsets performed a dual role. They were both a ringer cap and they blocked DC from the receiver when the phone is off hook.
However, if you are not getting that loud spike when you lift the receiver off hook, it sounds more like the switch timing than the cap. Also, the fact that the cap is working with the ringer is also a good sign.
I would like to see the photos, and I will be out until about 8:30 Pacific tonight.
I've been modifying my posting so things may have changed since you first looked at my photos.
Bill, I am getting some click in the receiver when lifting it off hook. Not nearly as loud. I am beginning to suspect the capacitor, although it is ringing properly. My thought on the capacitor over the dial contacts is that I've tried 3 dials in this phone and all get that annoying click in the earpiece as the dial comes to rest.
Attached is a pdf that I prepared from an e-mail Steve Hilsz sent me months ago when I asked him about dial click. This remedy worked and taught me to watch for this condition while working with these older dials. This illustrates what a helpful friend Steve is to all telephone collectors. I e-mailed him out of the blue and he took the time to sit down and write this very good description for me.
There may be other issues that cause the same condition but this was just one of them.
Dennis:
Do you have a spare condenser from a 302? The 302 double condenser (part number 195A) has a 2MF cap on the red and black wires. Hook one side of the 195A to L2 and the other side to C. Temporarily desolder one of the existing capacitor wires from the existing capacitor built into the subset.
Try it out in this configuration. If it works like it should, you will need to replace the 2MF cap with either the 195A from a 302, or go buy a 2MF 250 Volt more modern version.
The reason for desoldering the existing cap is that if it is leaking, and we place the 195A cap in parallel with a leaky cap, we would get the same results.
I need to run out the door.
Bye
Bill, I have done some experimenting while you've been away.
First I grabbed one of my other B1's and attached it to the suspect ringer box. Normally wired for anti side-tone I did not connect the black mounting cord lead. I got the dial click in that phone.
To make sure that phone/dial is working properly I connected it to a 302 type subset. One of those with Ray Kotke's cover. The B1, again wired w/o connecting the black lead worked normally.
I then connected the suspect phone to the 302 subset. Dial click present. That tells me I have two problems. One with the copper ringer box and also with the dial or switches on the original phone.
So I decided to work on the ringer box using my B1 as the test phone.
I disconnected the 2MF condenser wire as you suggested and connected a 195A condenser using the red and black leads. One connected to L2 and the other to C. The clicking was still present. This is with the known GOOD phone.
I disconnected the 195A condenser and tried the phone. Of course it was not working as I had not re-soldered the original 2MF condenser wire. As I touched the bare wire to the condenser post the dial tone returned. I re-soldered the wire to the condenser.
So now for whatever reason the box is causing clicking in the "good" phone. The "bad" phone is not working (without clicking) on either subset or a 3rd subset. I connected it to a 634A and wired it for side-tone (3 conductor mounting cord) and the clicking was present. So I'm pretty sure I'm having a dial issue with that original phone.
But the "good" phone works with two of the three boxes---not the copper box that I've been working with the past million years.
Note: There had been a broken wire on the R terminal before I started this project. I had re-soldered that wire several days ago. I gave the repair a tug tonight and the wire broke loose of the terminal. So I figured maybe that caused the problem with the box. I re-soldered the wire again and there is no change.
I'll probably sleep on this and go back at it tomorrow afternoon.
Thanks for following me on this.
Dennis;
I'm not an expert by any stretch but in your first photo, the center set of contacts are much wider apart then the ones are in my set. Maybe they are not closing like they should.
D/P
You know Dan, you could be right about that. I'll have to double check them against some of my other dials. Thanks.
Dennis;
I edited my post I meant to say they may not be closing when they should.
D/P
Dennis:
In my 5302 (you are familiar with it), within half a finger space, the bottom two flying contacts position themselves right in the middle of the two rigid contacts.
Just about a quarter of a finger space more, and the third flying contact touches the rigid contact above, while the second stays disconnected.
When you let go of the finger, the third contact stays disconnected and the second connects to the bottom rigid contact.
In your dial, the second middle rigid contact seems bent. In my dial, it is perfectly straight as it emerges from the pileup.
Dennis:
Just for fun, disconnect one of the ringer leads. Doesn't matter, either one. Try it then. I think it will work fine. If so, I can tell you something that I read in Ralph Meyer's book once. Anyway, with my set-up I too noticed I am getting a little pop when going off hook, and a louder pop on dial return. I unhooked the ringer, and presto, no pop in either case.
Let me know!
Since the 102 is still having some popping or clicking when using the 302 subset or the 634 subset, I think there may still be a dial timing issue, but the fact that newer phones had a problem on the 334 and did not on the 302 subset and the 634 subset point to this issue of needing to isolate the ringer out of the voice circuit. When you said that the newer phones were still popping on the 334, but not on the newer subsets, I remembered what I read in the book, and a light kind of came on.
I know this is probably as clear as mud.
Lets say that the 102 had a perfect dial. I believe that with the 334 subset that has the dual purpose condenser, you would still experience objectionable noise, just as you do with known good phones.
Here is what Ralph Meyers says in "Old Time Telephones! Design, History, and Restoration":
He talks about the timing of the switches in common battery phones using the single condenser subset, and says:
"This reduces receiver click, but does not eliminate it because of further condenser discharge. Common-battery circuits, which have condensers in their direct current loops, have noisy hook switch operation compared with quiet local battery circuits."
In other words, while dialing, the condenser is being charged through the coils of the ringer during dialing. When the dial returns and restores the connection to the receiver through the switch, the charged-up condenser is now connected to the receiver and discharges, or dumps all at once into the receiver with a momentary voltage spike. No timing will eliminate that entirely. Removing the ringer coil will eliminate that.
If removing the ringer coil still produces a click on that one 102, there could still be some dial adjustment needed, but it may also solve the problem entirely, so try it by just eliminating the ringer wire first and see what happens. Also, try it with one of your other phones on the 334 subset with the ringer wire disconnected.
If it works, you can use the 302 195A condenser as a second condenser just for the ringer. I believe this whole thing is why the later 534 and later subsets as well as 302's have two condensers instead of the one single purpose condenser.
The 334 subset is a 1912 vintage subset, and back then capacitors were very large. Just look at how big the single 2MF cap is in the subset you are working with. At the time a little click was probably an OK trade-off to how large and costly the subset would be with two capacitirs (condensers) inside.
Hooking it up for silent operation using the 195A is also easy. Have one ringer wire go to L1 and wire the other one to the GND terminal which will be just an empty tie-point. Hook one of the 2MF wires from the 195A to the same GND terminal, and the other to L2.
Now you have two condensers in the circuit. The 195A just for the ringer, and the old built in condenser just for the receiver circuit.
Let me know how it works.
Thank you again, Jorge for the photos and Bill for this explanation.
Believe it or not I do completely understand what you've described. I wondered when I was tinkering with that box if that could have possible just been the nature of the beast. Initially the "click" was not as bad as it is now. I think I probably moved the contacts on the dial enough to amplify the problem. I'm go back to ground zero and start again. I will give the experiment with the ringer lead a try. It is going to be later this afternoon but I'll report back.
If it is resolved by adding the 195A then it becomes a trade-off. Do we want to modify the inside of the box to accommodate the 195A to improve the click issue, or leave the box original and live with the clicking sound? I'm sure I can stuff the 195A inside the box, out of the way of moving parts.
Thank you.
Dennis:
The choice as to whether to add the 195A cap is one of whether the owner would like the quaint experience of real old-time telephony, or wants it to be nice and quiet. Even for me, a "died in the wool" phone nut, my preference would be to not listen to the loud clicks, so I think I would opt to put the 195A inside. You can hook it up nicely and tie it in with a couple of nylon wire ties and the whole thing would only be visible when the cover is open.
Or, you could track down a brand new 2MF 250 volt cap at a parts house that would be even smaller. In the event that it was some bright color like blue, green, or orange, you could wrap it with black electrical tape and it would fit right in. That way, you would not use up a 302 part.
You are probably like me, and have far exceeded in your time and materials that which you will get out of it. Believe me, I know how that goes. I am always too much of a perfectionist, and I rarely ever get paid for what I have into a project that I do for someone else. Sometimes I do things for free and I still go overboard. I forget what you said at the beginning of this thread as to whether you were doing this for a fee or not. It doesn't make any difference, though does it?
So, I would "fix" it with a second cap so that the user is not discouraged from using it. If it were going to be on display in a museum and seldom or never used, then I would certainly not "fix" it. However, since this may be someone's daily driver, I would make the experience of using it a nice one.
My 2 cents
Thank you Bill. It will be a couple hours yet before I get a chance to test out your theory, which I no doubt believe is accurate. I was wondering about a small "cap" to replace that one. I showed you that eBay listing with a similar subset listed. I took the photo from that listing and blew it up a bit so I could see what is written there. It is a 250 volt cap but I don't see a MF designation, only the letters MF. Maybe it just cannot be seen.
You're also correct in that the time I have invested in this "project" has long since passed by any monetary gain. But I look at it now as a learning experience. Unfortunately you now also have time invested with all the time it has taken you to educate me (us).
The attached photo was taken from this ebay listing:
http://tinyurl.com/2dgycaz
I enlarged it and flipped it upside down so it could be read easier. From what I can see it reads:
ITW @ MF
47 K 250v
95995 103
It appears to be connected between L2 and GND just like you suggested I do with the 195A. I'm going to give your suggestion a try. If that resolves the issue I'm going to look locally for one of the smaller capacitors.
Thank you!
~Dennis
That is a 0.47 Mf cap, and is too light for the ringer involved. With two 500 ohm coils in the ringer, it needs to be 2.0 MF, but still at 250 volts. Modern ringers with 4,000 ohm windings all use half MF caps (.47 is the industry standard for a .5).
If you go to buy one, it cannot be a polarized capacitor. Tantalum caps are polarized as many electrolytic caps. They do make a non-polarized electrolytic which would be fine, as would a variety of other types, just as long as they have the voltage rating so they don't break down at 75 to 90 volts, and that is is rated around 2 MF. 250 volt ratings are commonly used which gives more than enough room for a 75 to 90 volt current to be applied.
Bill, I contacted a few places locally. Eventually I was directed to a place that had a capacitor in stock. The person I spoke with had one that was close...it's a 2MF 200 volt. The business is called Galco Electronics and they appear to be nationwide. She gave me that part number. Searching their web site for that part number, here is the capacitor:
http://tinyurl.com/2esrojm
After doing some thinking I am leaning toward the 195A but this little do-hickey may be better. because of it's size.
Next on my list of things to do is pull that ringer wire off per your instructions and give that a try.
That would be a perfect cap. 200 volts is just fine, but $4.00??? I have one I will send you that is very similar that I paid 35 cents for. You can have it for my cost, plus a 35 cent discount. Since you kindly sent me a handset cord once, I'll even spring for the postage!
BTW, did you try it out with disconnecting the ringer yet?
Not yet, Bill. I will report back soon.
Bill, you are THE Man. I have a smile on my face that will probably last the rest of the evening!
I connected the ringer as you suggested and then connected my phone---the known "good" phone. No dial click. Perfect! Just for grins I rang the line and of course the ringer did not ring. I connected the 195A as you suggested and I had a ringing box and a phone that did not click in my ear.
I then removed the known "good" phone and attached the original B1 that had dial click. The dial click remained. I had actually caused the problem in the dial by trying to adjust the contacts thinking the problem was with them.
So I adjusted the dial contacts per Steve Hilsz' suggestions that I posted previously. Guess what? No dial click. The phone works normally now.
I think I can successfully mount the 195A atop the larger capacitor. The bracket that holds that capacitor into the box should allow me to sandwich the 195A on top of the old one. I will have to run to my local hardware store to see if I can get a couple of screws that are about 3/4 of an inch longer. If so, I'm in business.
Bill, I appreciate the offer for your capacitor (and to ship it to me) but for now I'll plan on using this 195A. I have had it kicking around for a while. It came with some 101A induction coils I bought a while back. I checked and the top of the box will lower with the 195A resting atop the old capacitor without interference.
Thanks to everyone that responded to this post. I really appreciate all the help. I certainly have learned something from this experience about the older boxes.
Bill thank you specifically for taking the time to research this and help me out! Attached is a little something from me to you! :)
Aw gee, I am touched by the expression of appreciation. I can now say I have been kissed by a cow!
Bill, can you see any reason why I can't clip the rest of the wires from the 195A? Or perhaps I can just tape off the spade tips. I thought it might make a neater install--should I decide to use that capacitor.
Quote from: Dennis Markham on May 19, 2010, 08:16:53 PM
Bill, can you see any reason why I can't clip the rest of the wires from the 195A? Or perhaps I can just tape off the spade tips. I thought it might make a neater install--should I decide to use that capacitor.
Since those other two leads are isolated from the other section of the capacitor, you could just screw both of them down to one of the ones of the other section. For instance, I don't know which capacitor lead you connected to the GND terminal, but let's say red. Just screw the two free leads from the 195A to GND along with the red. That way, you don't need to cut or tape.
Thanks again, Bill.
Final update on this project. It is finished! I ended up piggy-backing the 195A capacitor on top of the original 2MF capacitor using zip ties. I started by getting longer screws for the bracket that lays across the original capacitor. However the bracket end got in the way of lowering/closing the cover so I had to go to plan B.
Here is the finished product. It looks like a rats nest of wires and I guess it is. There are extra wires from the capacitor. On the cords I had to strip back the wires and attach new spade tips. I made the leads a little longer than I should have. But I think it will be fine. I have it plugged in at my desk now for the test drive. It's working great now. I put a real dial card on it instead of the reproduction card. Originally I was going to just use a modular mounting cord from the box to the wall but found a brown cloth covered cord in my box of stuff. I had to modify the ends so that I could stuff them inside the little plug. Life is good.
A Picasa Web Album of the restoration can be seen here:
https://tinyurl.com/y7fz8gle
Click on the 1st image to read the accompanying text. Then just toggle through the rest of the photos............
Dennis;
Very nice set.
I have the same phone, but need the subset.
D/P
That is oh so nice. Excellent job. You have a lot to be proud of.
Dennis....OUTSTANDING JOB!!! Its really nice to see there are some people out there who still care. Plus, when you only make $1 an hour for your refurbs, people will line up for your work. I thought Steve Hilsz was inexpensive, you my friend are a way better deal. All kidding aside, you should be very proud of your work on this....Doug
Thank you for the compliments. It was a fun project....but one that I'm happy is complete. If it were mine I'd repaint the dial card retainer ring, or replace it. But the owner wants it original so that's the way ti will stay.
Very Very Nice! You did a great job on this! I agree the dial card retainer should be painted or replaced.
Harry
Dennis....Brass retainer ring. Remove the paint and shine the metal. This will shine as well as the ringer box. It would be a great contrast with the copper ringer. Or touch it up with a sharpie. Just my opinion...Doug
Good idea Doug. I have a couple in rough shape. Just for fun I'll give it a shot. I can't let go of this project! :)
I fixed up a ring in original brass. I have sent off three photos to the owner. One of the original ring, a replacement black ring with good paint and the brass one for him to choose.
Above (or below, whichever you prefer) in my post #30 of this thread I have added a sound file of the ringer.
Finally, NO! I am not going to paint the finger wheel!! :)
I like the replacement
Dennis;
If there were more brass I would prefer the brass ring, but that said, I think the original looks best. JMHO.
D/P
Dennis.... I love the brass. Remember the original #2 dials came with a nickel retainer ring....Doug
Dennis....what did the owner decide? I vote brass, it gets your attention....Doug
After reconsidering, I vote for the brass dial ring.
D/P
The Tribe has spoken.....he wanted a replacement black ring. It has been done. The brass one will have to wait for another phone.
I'm sure you're tired of the "one more thought", but that nice shiny subset cover deserves to be on top of the desk along with the phone. If it were mine, I'd run to the hardware store & pick up a set of feet to install on the frame. It will make it more "furniture friendly".
i am the only one who voted for the replacement.
Stephen that is a great idea. I mentioned to the owner that he could use it horizontally or vertically. I am going to recommend that he get some foot pads of some type and leave it on the desk. It's too "pretty" to put down on the baseboard. Thanks for the suggestion.
Kenny, you and the owner think alike. Actually you think like me. I prefer the nicely painted black ring on this particular phone.
I like things to look like they did right after it rolled of the line