Wiring Problem on 102, or is it a 202 ??

[Larry]

This is my first attempt at restoring an old telephone.  As currently wired, the dial tone does not stop when dialing a number, and the hookswitch does not disconnect the line when pushed down.  Here's a picture of the way it's wired.  Notice that there is a green lead that is cut, and the handset cord being used has red, black, and white leads.  Is this a 102 or 202 configuration?  Any idea about the problem with dial tone?

Larry

[unbeldi]

This is my first attempt at restoring an old telephone.  As currently wired, the dial tone does not stop when dialing a number, and the hookswitch does not disconnect the line when pushed down.  Here's a picture of the way it's wired.  Notice that there is a green lead that is cut, and the handset cord being used has red, black, and white leads.  Is this a 102 or 202 configuration?  Any idea about the problem with dial tone?

Larry

Well, it was a 202 until that green wire got cut. Undoubtedly it once belonged to the mounting cord on the left side.  All the other wires appear in the correct positions.  Since you are planning on using this as a 102, you only need a three conductor cord and you can use the black wire of the mounting cord to replace the broken green one.  Simply move the black from the dial over to the terminal where green is now.  On the subset end of the cord, you connect the black wire to the GN terminal, or it's equivalent label "4".

I see that the cords leads are not of great quality anymore, the rubber insulation has crumbled, so you will have to find out if this cord is still good enough to be used.  Hopefully, the other end is usable too.  So,  black (GN) to 4, red (R) to 2, yellow (Y) to L2.

Make sure the spades are securely fastened on the screws.  the yellow lead on the hookswitch terminal isn't.

However, I am wondering just how you could hear dial tone at all without the green wire.


(This is a continuation of topic 102 versus 202)

[Larry]

Moving black from the dial to green, and leaving all other wires as pictured, would you expect this phone to work without connecting it to the subset?

Larry

[unbeldi]

Moving black from the dial to green, and leaving all other wires as pictured, would you expect this phone to work without connecting it to the subset?

Larry

How have you connected it so far?
Connecting it to the subset is the only way it will work correctly.

And yes, if you do that, it should work if the cord is not internally damaged.

[Larry]

When I got the phone, I connected it to the wall and got the problem I described above with the dial tone not breaking and the hookswitch not disconnecting the call.  Actually, it wasn't a call.  It was a recorded voice saying I had taken too long to dial.

I haven't connected it to the subset yet.  Maybe tonight.  It appears that my line cord to the wall will connect to L1 and L2 in the subset.  With your instructions above I should be good to go.  THANKS !!

Now I have a second D1 that I'll start on as soon as I get #1 finished.  I did a really good job of sanding down and repainting the first phone.  I used Rust-O-leum primer and Rust-O-Leum Automotive enamel.  I put one coat of primer and 3 coats of black enamel with a very light sanding with 800 grit between coats.  I cooked in the oven at 190 degrees for 10 minutes between sprays.  Then shut off the oven and left the parts in until they cooled.  When I get the replacement porcelain dial and center card holder, I'll post a picture of the phone.  It was a very enjoyable project, thanks to you and others who have given me great advice and information.

Larry

[Larry]

Ok.  I've connected the Western Electric 102 D1 to my Western Electric 295A subset.  Everything works great except when dialing a number the subset bells ring as the dial returns to rest position.  Is that normal for this setup?

Larry

[unbeldi]

Ok.  I've connected the Western Electric 102 D1 to my Western Electric 295A subset.  Everything works great except when dialing a number the subset bells ring as the dial returns to rest position.  Is that normal for this setup?

Larry

It is quite common actually, especially for subsets  that were not originally designed for dial service.  To prevent this a special feature was invented on ringer:  A bias spring kept the yoke or clapper in one position preferentially. The spring was just strong enough to prevent this tapping.  If you post a picture of your ringer we can see if it is just missing.  It the clapper free to swing from one side to other?   You can also try to reverse the polarity of the phone line.

[unbeldi]

Here is another 295A subscriber set that has a ringer with the bias spring.
Perhaps you can compare with yours.

If you have it, try increasing its tension just slight by turn that knob that has some take-up of the thread to the spring wrapped around it.  Be careful, these knobs can break off easily, they are brass and not screwed into the brass rod, but simply pressed in.

[Larry]

Providing more tension on the bias spring fixed the problem.  Phone and subset are working perfectly.  Love those ringing bells !!

I don't hear any side tones through the receiver when I'm talking on the phone.  Sounds normal to me.  I spent quite a while talking with my brother this evening.  He said the phone sounds better than my cell phone does.  Amazing instrument from 1928 or thereabouts. The subset is probably 20 years older than that.  Last patent date is 1907.

Here's a picture. . . Before and After.  This is a D1 housing wired as B1 attached to 295A subset. 

[unbeldi]

Yes, indeed. I have got similar comments when talking on a sidetone 102 (B1 + 534A), but it's easy to beat cell phone quality.

Congratulation! Nice job.

[unbeldi]

Something weird is happening.  I have two Western Electric D1 phones wired for 102 service.  Phone #1 has been connected to the 295A subset for 2 days and operating properly.  I finished restoring Phone #2 and to test it, I removed Phone #1 from the subset and attached Phone #2.  Got a dial tone and dialed my own number and when the recording said I had dial a number on my own party line, I hung up and the subset bells rang as expected.  I lifted the handset of Phone #2, pressed the hook switch to hang up and now I have no dial tone.  I've checked the subset with my ohm meter and the readings on components are correct.  So, I disconnected Phone #2 from the subset and reattached Phone #1.  Now I have no dial tone on Phone #1 and the line is open as though the phone is "off the hook".  No phone in the house has a dial tone.

What could have changed? Phone #1 should work.  I reattached it just as it was before.

Larry

Hmm.
Does disconnecting the phone from the wall for a short while resolve the no-dial tone issue?

It seems the subset is stuck in a permanent ring trip condition.  This can happen with old telephones that have a low impedance ringer.
Are you connecting it to a real copper local loop from the telephone company or is it an analog telephone adapter on fiber or coax?

It is actually permissible to connect two or more 102 telephones to a subset in parallel. This is one convenience feature that the 102 has over the 202. In a 102 all components inside the telephone are actually disconnected from the subset when on-hook, so you can use multiple 102s with one subset. Place the subset centrally in the house to hear ringing and use inside wiring to to a connection point by each phone with three conductors.

[Larry]

I found my problem right after I posted.  I started disconnecting everything to I could get the house phones working again.  I used a 4-prong plug on the old phones.  Turned out my plug was shorting out.  Fixed that and everything is back to normal.

I deleted my post as soon as I found the problem so I wouldn't be wasting anyone's time.  You saw it pretty quickly !

Larry

[NorthernElectric]

I deleted my post as soon as I found the problem so I wouldn't be wasting anyone's time.

Instead of deleting your post you could have added a PS or additional reply with the solution.  Documentation of one's problems and solutions can be a big help to others when faced with similar problems.  Through google or the forum's own search feature I have often found information on this forum that I needed before asking for help; I would guess that others have done the same.

I actually had a problem similar to yours with a 20-AL candlestick connected to a 684 subset reconfigured for sidetone service.  It was working fine for weeks then developed a problem.  It turned out to be the modular line cord I was using. 

[Larry]

Fortunately Unbeldi quoted my entire post.  So, hopefully those who may need the info will be able to find it. 

LW

[unbeldi]

I'll be happy to delete my post. It was a nice ending to the story just before that post.
I suspected something along those lines, because as soon as I was finished editing your post was gone.
But as N.E. stated, all of us have encountered such situation ourselves.