WE 653 Giving me fits, HELP!

[Butch Harlow]

I recently got way too deep in a project 653 hotel wall phone. It had, when I got it, the wrong dial and ringer and all the wiring had been gutted and replaced with poorly done vinyl wire. I decided the body was in good enough shape to do a thorough refurb. I sourced all the necessary parts including vintage 70 year old WE tinned, cloth wrapped wire. The intent was to be as close to original as possible. I used the drawing pictured and went about crimping blade terminals and soldering joints as necessary. I finished up today, testing and repairing any wire that failed the resistance test. The ringer I put in was working when I put it in. The dial the same. The 1mf ring/2mf talk condenser tests good. New receiver cord and new modular wall cord. Here is the issue:

When I plug it in to my Panasonic kx-T61610 I get nothing. If I rotate the dial, I get a momentary light on the line it's on and sometimes can hear the dialtone. I checked, rechecked, and triple checked my wiring to the diagram. It's all good. So, I added a jumper to BB and BK on the dial and I get a steady dial tone, it dials, I can hear, but cannot transmit. The switch hook breaks the line and it receives calls but does not ring. I know I am close, but have no idea where to go from here. If anyone has an idea that will get me going, I would sure appreciate it.

Thanks in advance...

[Ktownphoneco]

Hi Butch   .....  You've checked your wiring against the schematic, and your sure it's correct.      That said, I'd start looking at the switch contacts on both the back of the dial and the spring switches in the hook switch pile up.     
If you jumpered the "BB" and "W" terminals on the back of the dial and established dial tone, that tells me that the bottom spring, which is connected to the "W" terminal on the dial, and the second spring from the bottom, which is connected to the "BB" terminal, aren't firmly mating with each other when the dial is in the rest position.     Lift the receiver off the hook with the set connected to your 61610, and take your finger nail or a small screw driver and push down on the second spring (BB) from the bottom, until you feel it firmly touching the bottom spring (W), and see if you get dial tone.

Disconnect the phone from the 61610 and take the receiver off hook and check all of the springs in the hook switch, making sure that all of the springs that are suppose to connect, are in fact firmly touching each other.

Jeff

[poplar1]

You don't need a jumper from BB to BK on dial. (Doing so would short out the transmitter when off hook, preventing you from being able to transmit.)

On older sets (553A) that originally had a 2A dial, you would strap BB and R when using a 2H or 4H or 5H dial to make the H dial equivalent to a 2A dial.

[Ktownphoneco]

Butch ...  Sorry, poplar1 just made me realize I misread your post.    I'd still check the two bottom springs I mentioned just to be sure, and I'd still check the hook switch to make sure the springs are mating properly.

Jeff
 

[Butch Harlow]

Well, something is definitely screwy. I have extra dials, but no extra switchhook. It will not give dial tone unless I use a jumper. It works on bk to w, bk to bb, and I think y to bk. Without it, nothing. Ah well...what's a project without a learning opportunity? I will start fresh tomorrow night and see where it goes. But, just for reference, this drawing does work, doesn't it. The original drawing is more complicated but seems different to me.

[Ktownphoneco]

Butch   ....   Yes, the older drawing is electrically the same.     On the one I have, it doesn't show or make the actual physical connection of the ringer to the circuit.      The 2 spade connectors are left suspended and unattached.     The ringer and talk circuit condensers are drawn into the circuit on the older drawing, but are indicated using the older schematic condenser characters.

Jeff

[poplar1]

You said it doesn't ring: Try temporarily moving the (red) line cord wire from L1 to GND and the red ringer wire from L1 to GND, to test just the ringer and 1 uF capacitor only. (This disconnects the talking circuit.)

Is your induction coil a 101A or a 146B? You can temporarily bypass the hookswitch and dial by connecting the receiver directly to GN and R on the induction coil, and the transmitter directly to L2 and R on the induction coil. (after moving the red line cord back to L1)

[Butch Harlow]

You said it doesn't ring: Try temporarily moving the (red) line cord wire from L1 to GND and the red ringer wire from L1 to GND, to test just the ringer and 1 uF capacitor only. (This disconnects the talking circuit.)

Is your induction coil a 101A or a 146B? You can temporarily bypass the hookswitch and dial by connecting the receiver directly to GN and R on the induction coil, and the transmitter directly to L2 and R on the induction coil. (after moving the red line cord back to L1)

The ringer works, this I am sure of. I took it from a functional 634a subset. I tried doing what you asked but nothing happened, even if I tried to call into it. However, in it's current state it doesn't pick up a line. I have to jumper the dial in any of a multitude of ways. I jumped from K to BK on the wood strip and the ringer moves, you have to throttle that connection to get it to ding more than once, if you understand what I am saying. I did test the capacitor with a meter at work and it shows proper capacitance.  The hookswitch seems to be fine, I cleaned the mating contacts lightly and it opens and closes as it should. The dial is fresh back from a trip to AZ to be adjusted by Steve Hilsz. For the sake of thoroughness I rechecked every single wire and every connection.  Everything follows the diagram I posted above. Is it possible the induction coil could be bad? It's a 101a, sorry to withhold that tidbit for so long.

[poplar1]

Jumping BK to K connects the ringer directly to the line (red ringer to L1 and black ringer bypassing the capacitor and instead going thru dial Y-BK and hookswitch to L2-Y). If it won't ring when connected as I suggested (red ringer wire to the red line wire; black ringer as per diagram to K, then ringing capacitor to K and L2), then the capacitor is open or you are not using the correct capacitor wires (are they yellow and slate for the ringer, and red and black for the talk circuit?).

Edit:

If you run a jumper between BK on the terminal strip and K on the terminal strip, you are bypassing the 2 uF capacitor, thus connecting the ringer directly across the line. This will busy out the line, if not right away, then when someone calls; then it will stay busy (keep the phone off the hook). However, this is a good way to make sure the ringer has continuity through the ringer coils, since it should pull the clapper to one side or the other as soon as you bypass the capacitor.

Are you sure you have the capacitor connected correctly? Colors aren't shown in the diagram, but the 2 uF capacitor ("talk capacitor") should go from C on induction coil to BK on the terminal strip. And the 1 uF "ring capacitor" should connect to L2 and K, in order to be in series with the ringer which is connected to K and L1.

[Butch Harlow]

I have a 2nd condenser, which was the original. I thought I had killed it because I used it to relearn soldering. I melted most of the tar out of the top. So, I got another I was lucky enough to find on the Ebay.

I am totally certain I have the correct connections on the condenser. When I ran the jumper from k to bk on the strip, what you described is exactly what happened.

I brought the old condenser to work and tested it, it reads 2.23mfd and 1.27mfd so it's good. Of course, the other tested fine also, but may have since died.

I will solder new wires onto the old one tonight and give it a whirl. Now that I have relearned that skill, I should not lose any more tar. Once I do that I will take some pictures so you're not taking shots in the dark trying to help me. I will also get some close up pics of the rest of the wiring so we can put this baby to rest. I am still baffled as to why I have to jumper the dial to get tone.

Also. I REALLY want to use a 4h dial, does it matter if I use a 5h or 4h? Are there any wiring differences or is the H designation what this diagram covers?

Again. Thanks for all the help so far. Understanding these things and why they happen is why I do this.

[poplar1]

2H, 4H, 5H and 6A are all the same electrically, and the terminals are labeled the same.

[Butch Harlow]

Ok, here are some detailed pics. I soldered new wires onto the guaranteed working condenser. I checked all the new wires for continuity through the new crimp on ends. I resoldered some of the connections on the hookswitch. I retested every single wire for continuity and everything checks out. I had been having real trouble with the double wire connection on the switch using the red wire. One false move and one of them would break off. I switched to white wire, it seems to be sturdier. I checked, double checked and skipping triple, went straight to quadruple checking of all the wiring to the diagram. I still have the exact same problem. If I don't jumper BB to BK I get no dialtone. In any case I cannot transmit, or get it to ring. With the jumper in the aforementioned place I can call out and call in. The switchhook opens and closes the line and the dial breaks tone and pulses correctly.  I am officially stumped. Still having fun, mind you, but stumped nonetheless. Please don't laugh at my terrible soldering, I haven't done that since high school. Okay, you can laugh, but try not to fall out of your chair. A light belly laugh is ok, I guess.

[Ktownphoneco]

Butch ....   Don't  worry or get excited about the situation.   We all have our theories about your problem, but "poplar1" can best explain what's going on here, and get you point in the right direction.
Best case scenario, work with one knowledgeable person, and the problem gets corrected.

Jeff

[poplar1]

If you connect the ringer to GND and K, the 1 uF capacitor to K and L2, and the line to GND and L2, will it ring? (This disconnects the talking path,)

[Doug Rose]

Butch...if this has been covered...sorry. I am checking the dial connections and I see a Northern from '56. I thought you were using a WE 4H to be period and manufacturer correct.  By chance are the pics from your old set up before the 4H. ....Doug