I have a W.E. Model 202, with an E1 handset. The dial mechanism has no identification symbols on it. How can I determine if it is a #2, #4, #5, #6, etc? What are the differences in the various numbered dials? TIA
BOB
Well, without getting technical, the #4 dial makes a loud clickity-clack sound when dialed. The #5 does also, but generally much quieter. If it's a #5 with a plastic cam, it may be almost soundless(ie no clickity-clack) when dialed. Also, remove the bottom cover. It's generally marked on the backside of the dial in red/orange ink. Others may be able to add to this.
Either or is correct. They received #5 when re-furbed. Most folks like myself, love the clickity-clack as it is ;D Otherwise, both dials are the same for the most part. No #6 dials were installed on D1 mounts to my knowledge, though that means little. I do believe #7 were used for the D1/202 Imperial sets on the mid/late 50s. That was a Ma Bell's attempt at using up parts, while trying to sell folks on style.
NOTE: Just dawned on me, a #7 wouldn't fit into a D1 mount. DUH! Just a number #6 with a plastic wheel. Man I'm getting slow at times!! ::)
Quote from: BDM on October 12, 2008, 11:52:48 PM
Well, without getting technical, the #4 dial makes a loud clickity-clack sound when dialed. The #5 does also, but generally much quieter. If it's a #5 with a plastic cam, it may be almost soundless(ie no clickity-clack) when dialed.
I think you dial experts are like a secret society, keeping the truth about dial types a closely guarded secret. Yea, I knew I could come up with a suitable conspiracy theory to justify my ignorance! Imagine, expecting us to identify dials based on whether it goes clickety-click, clickety-clack, or clickety klunk!!! :D ;D ;)
Besides the markings on the back side, that's how I tell them apart. But, it does sound funny ;D Still the best way to tell a #2 or #4 apart from the rest.
Just so you know what the marking on the back of the dial looks like, here is a photo of a #4H dial. This dial is from a Western Electric 302 that I am refurbishing for someone. I have never run across a 302 with a #4 before although I know they're out there. This particular phone also has and E1 handset but a thermoplastic housing. One would think that a 302 with an E1 and a #4 dial would be old enough to have a metal housing---pre WWII. Perhaps it was refurbished in the field with the plastic housing. This dial also has a 1146T on the top which I THINK means it was tested in November of 1946. Maybe someone else knows for sure. If you'd like to see a photo of a #5 dial including the cam that makes the clicking sound, let me know. I post a photo of each. The #5H dial has a small rubber tip on the end of the cam that ratchets against the main gear. Thus it doesn't make the sound of the #4 or earlier dials.
If I remember correctly, the #5 also has the switched "W" connection opposite of the above photo. Just above the other four contact connections.
OK. Guess I have a #2 or #4 dial mechanism. It definately has a loud "clikity-clack" sound as it returns to rest. Last patent date is 3 21 engraved on the back. No cover for the back. All metal construction. So, what is the difference between a #2 and #4? The dial mechanism is from a 202 (with E1 handset). Only marking on the B1 base is "429", in red-orange. TIA
BOB
2 has it's fingerstop mounted with two screws to the outside of the dial case, while 4 has it's fingerstop mounted inside the case, with a notch in the dial plate to accommodate it.
If I'm not mistaken, the "429" indicates the mounting was made in April, 1929. I'm used to seeing Roman numerals inside to denote the quarter year, e.g. "III-37" for "third quarter, 1937," but then I've never seen inside a B1, and they may have done it differently that far back.
This is a great web page about the #2 and #4 dials. It explains the differences and a time-line. Take a look.
http://atcaonline.com/phone/dials.htm
( dead link 11-03-21 )
Many #2 dials were converted to #4 dials for use in the D1 base. The D1 has a sunken dial and the finger stop of the #2 would not allow for the dial to be recessed into the base. So the finger stop holes were welded closed and new holes were drilled for the "new" finger stop. Those converted #2 dials are common. That stock was used prior to the production of the #4 dial.
The question was recently posed to the A.T.C.A. asking which dial was appropriate for the B1 base. The answer was that the 2H dial was the proper dial. However someone did mention that many 4H dials were also mounted in the B1 in addition to the D1 (oval) base.
I just checked inside my B1 and it also reads "429" as opposed to the Roman Numeral date. Generally the Roman Numeral date is what comes to mind. Perhaps they hadn't started that method yet in 1929.
Just a side note that comes to mind. On Ebag I've seen several B1 mounts being sold off with #5 dials. Several years back, there was a discussion about this on the list server. General consensus was W.E. never mounted #5 dials in B1 mounts, instead removing them for service in favor of a D1 or H1 mount. But they did on D1 mounts.
Dennis, when you say #4H dials being used on B1 mounts, you mean as replacements?
I am certainly no dial expert. All I know is what I hear passed down or what I've read on line. But I believe a B1 would not have left the factory with anything but the a #2 dial. I'm sure there must have been field replacements with the later converted #2 or a #4 with the notched dial plate. From what I remember the B1's were only released for two years before the D1 replaced them. So if you think about it, those are pretty old....mine is dated 1929, so what the two years were may be '27 - '29 or '28 - 30..something like that....I'm sure the time-line on those is readily available on one of the collector's sites.
The #4's were released in 302's and I have found them mounted in the black D1's as well as the painted D1's that came along in the early 1950's. So everything was used and re-used. Many of the D1's in color were released with the 5J dial but I got lucky with the ivory one I posted a while back as it had a 4H inside.
Dennis, that's what I was thinking. The B1 should have left service by the time the D1 came along. But, who knows?? I would bet the B1 stayed in production for a short time, over lapping the D1. Plus, I would lay a pay-check that W.E. field serviced a B1 or two, installing a #4 dial. Why not? Like W.E. cared at the time ;)
If someone could simply take pictures of the front and back of each KNOWN model, and label them, that would go much further.
D/P
Here are four photos showing the back and front of a #4 and #5 dial. From the outside when the dial is assembled they look pretty much alike, especially with the finger wheels and dial card in place.
On these two the major differences are the pulse pawl arm and the governors. I think the difference to the ear is the ticking sound the dial makes during the return.
Great post Dennis. That should make it easy ;D BTW, I just dug up an extra #2AA dial I forgot about. Nice little prize in my attic :o
Dennis, and mark;
We could use a section of phone types and photo gallery.
Make sure the gallery is located here on the forum, and not linked to some off site photo service.
Make it by manufacturer, that way we can have pictures of all types of phones made not just certain types. I know it's a dial phone forum, but being able to see non dial phones would also be very interesting.
Dan
Quote from: Dan/Panther on October 17, 2008, 02:32:08 AM
Dennis, and mark;
We could use a section of phone types and photo gallery.
Make sure the gallery is located here on the forum, and not linked to some off site photo service.
Make it by manufacturer, that way we can have pictures of all types of phones made not just certain types. I know it's a dial phone forum, but being able to see non dial phones would also be very interesting.
Dan
D/P,
You're thinking of photos with descriptions, for the purpose of identification of the various makes/models? Perhaps thumbnail images that can be clicked to show the large versions? If so, I could do that easily, but it would need to be a "static" page, rather than a component of the forum itself. In other words, I could make such a page and make it a part of classicrotaryphones.com, only it wouldn't be inside the forum area. (it would be similar to the pages of vintage phone advertisements)
A picture gallery of any form would be a good thing. Similar to what the antique radio web sites are doing.
Quote from: BDM on October 18, 2008, 04:35:48 PM
A picture gallery of any form would be a good thing. Similar to what the antique radio web sites are doing.
If you get the chance, post a link to one of those radio sites. I'd like to see what you're thinking of.
Quote from: Mark Stevens on October 13, 2008, 10:53:24 AM
Quote from: BDM on October 12, 2008, 11:52:48 PM
Well, without getting technical, the #4 dial makes a loud clickity-clack sound when dialed. The #5 does also, but generally much quieter. If it's a #5 with a plastic cam, it may be almost soundless(ie no clickity-clack) when dialed.
I think you dial experts are like a secret society, keeping the truth about dial types a closely guarded secret. Yea, I knew I could come up with a suitable conspiracy theory to justify my ignorance! Imagine, expecting us to identify dials based on whether it goes clickety-click, clickety-clack, or clickety klunk!!! :D ;D ;)
Mark;
The order in which you describe the sound of dials, they are, #4, #6, and #5.
Just thought you might like to know.
Here is the link top ARF's photo gallery, laid out by manufacturer, and also a miscellaneous, and temporary album.
Here is the link;
http://antiqueradios.com/gallery/main.php
Dan/Panther
There it is Mark. Dan beat me to it ;)
Quote from: BDM on October 18, 2008, 11:22:09 PM
There it is Mark. Dan beat me to it ;)
I'm starting to figure this out...
you're all crazy!!!
The 4H dial I have has a the "W" terminal on the bottom. It has the correct pulse pawl arm, in which the tension is maintained by a spring and not the lever found in 5H dials, and it's certainly louder than the 5H. Th dial was in a 1947 302, and had been repainted and, I assume, refurbished at that time.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_26I3Nyjgm7Q/SSsvI80MS_I/AAAAAAAAFM8/ugTiFHTqIGg/DSCN7814.JPG)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_26I3Nyjgm7Q/SSsvI2uoCQI/AAAAAAAAFNE/GXnSisShPYk/DSCN7815.JPG)
The dial is an old one, judging from the welded holes Dennis was talking about:
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_26I3Nyjgm7Q/SSsyTUDKq9I/AAAAAAAAFNM/quEvsjgDIvA/DSCN7816.JPG)
That's a No. 4, alright. Just goes to show you learn something new every day. :)
Sargeguy,
I cannot see your pictures. =(. Is there any way you can post them again?
I am super interested in the dials.
Thanks,
nto
I was looking for a " new " book thread. I hit this topic, so I thought I would point out that Stan's long awaited dial book is supposed to be in print soon ( Earlish 2010). I am planning on getting a copy when it is available.
Now if someone could point me to the book thread, I will be on my way. I have a stack of collector titles to add.
Thanks,
Jim
All the #4 dials I've seen have a fingerstop that is curved all the way to the end, where all the #5 dials I've seen have fingerstops that are fairly straight for the last quarter-inch or so. Is this a consistent difference, or just a general tendency fraught with exceptions?
It's consistent, but like everything else in telephony, is subject to exceptions. How's that for an answer?
I think that Bill is right about the exceptions. A quick search through my dials found a #5 from III 41 that had the full curve in the finger stop. So maybe the year has something to do with it too.
Doug Pav
Sounds like a fine answer to me. #4 and #5 can be very hard to distinguish without touching them or partly dismantling the phone.
Of course, we're looking at the dials seventy years after they were made.
What are the chances that the fingerstops were replaced at least once when the dials were refurbished?
Quote from: paul-f on May 31, 2011, 07:16:07 PM
Of course, we're looking at the dials seventy years after they were made.
What are the chances that the fingerstops were replaced at least once when the dials were refurbished?
That's what I'm taking into account. The near consistency makes me think they probably were consistent when new, but a few had to be repaired and replaced along the way, causing some switcheroo now and then.
My Personal observation:
#2A have a W stamped in the spot where R is on a later dial. Outside fingerstop.
#2H has the W terminal up by the governer.
#4H has the W terminal up by the governer and the inside fingerstop.(I think this was to accomodate the recessed dial design of the D1 mount)
#5H hasthe W terminal on the terminal strip side of the dial and it has double contacts on its springs as opposed to the single contacts on 2 and 4.
Of course in the over 80+ years of the dial, I'm sure ther are many exceptions and variations.
I have a "6Q" dial in my WE 302. Has anyone ever heard of these?
It looks like it is dated 1975.
Apparently it wires up differently from earlier #6 dials
I just learned that this is the equivalent of the WE 6U dial (made by Northern Electric).
Mystery solved.
Thanks
I just received a farm fresh B1 with with an F1 headset (with parts circa 1952), an N19 filter, and a 4H dial (converted from a 2HA or B.
Can anybody outline the steps to remove the screw hole plugs?
I remember, when I was a little kid, I was watching a superman rerun where he spying on the bad guys who made a phone call. While staying hidden, he listened to the clickety-clack of the dial and figured out the phone number that was dialed. Why would I remember that unless I was born to be a classic rotary phone fan? Anyone happen to know the episode or the phone used? Just curious.
cloyd
Greg, the pictures you posted didn't come through... please try reposting them.
Maybe because the links to the pictures are 7+ years old.
OK, Thanks.
Thought I would show a dial I have acquired. The finger stop reads 2AB but the faceplate has only numbers and no letters. Also the dial plate has a notch where an internally mounted finger stop would go. I think at some point the plate has been replaced. Any comments on dates or what this may have come off of?
Since it is "brassed out" (black paint removed), I'm guessing it was on a candlestick phone that had been made into a lamp, or at least a phone that had been stripped.
2AB dial originally would have been furnished with a notchless 132-B number plate with letters and numbers.
2AB dials were used on desk stands (candlesticks), wall phones (1553-A) and possibly on pay phones.
The dial plate may have a date on the back. The plate was made in the early 1930s. The dial is from the 1920s most likely.
Thanks for that insight. That is good information.