Classic Rotary Phones Forum

In the words of poplar1, "this one needs to be talked about . . . "

So, this topic is being created for any and all discussion of the WE clear 302 prototype that is now the subject phone of Special Auction Contest 16.

As such, use the Auction Contest for guesses only and use this topic for all commentary.

The eBay listing is at:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/original-Western-Electric-PROTOTYPE-Clear-302-Telephone-Rare-1939-Worlds-Fair-/131973004190

The Auction Contest (with all of the eBay photos) is at:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16949.msg174788#msg174788

Yes,...
I thought the mixture of parts is interesting.  I wonder whether the World Fair pamphlet was originally connected to this set, or acquired separately.

The parts of the phone appear to be from early 1937, perhaps even 1936.  The receiver capsule is still the development version.
But the handset cord is much younger.

I saw this one, and sent a PM to Jim H. I figured it's still too early in the auction to talk about.

Notice the field trial number on the base, and slots in the edge of the base. This was definitely pre-production, and I would guarantee the plastic is original.

The base is also interesting. It looks 1936-1937 with riveted feet, early 101a, early ringer mount, but the base also has a capacitor boss, which I thought didn't appear till 1938. Very cool.

Are the handset and housing made of DuPont Lucite instead of Tenite or whatever color 302s or clear 500s were made of? That handset looks like ice, it's so clear and unyellowed. Much unlike the clear 500s, which seem to darken with age.

Also since some of our newer members may not have seen it, here is Lucille Ball in a photo using a clear 302. She got married to Desi Arnaz in New York when the 1939-40 NY World's Fair was still on, and I'm thinking this picture was taken at the exhibit. I wonder which of the activities she was doing? Her father had been a lineman for the phone company when she was growing up, so she may have been more than casually interested in the telephone. I always thought she was a very smart lady.

Funny if it would be Lucite. Lucy on Lucite.  :)

Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on October 17, 2016, 02:40:10 PM
Notice the field trial number on the base, and slots in the edge of the base.

Same number (7011) is also on the coil, capacitor, inside of base and receiver capsule. Ringer looks un-marked. Can't see the dial.

The feet suffer from having cord pads attached to them, one remains in place, but other that matted suede, the base, the whole phone is in very good condition.

Had 35 watchers this morning. Up to 47 watchers now with 5 bidders and sitting at $275. Snipe will require a chair and a stiff adult beverage but it will be fun to watch.

I wonder if Dennis knows the seller or the estate from which it came?

Quote from: jsowers on October 17, 2016, 02:48:26 PM
Are the handset and housing made of DuPont Lucite instead of Tenite or whatever color 302s or clear 500s were made of? That handset looks like ice, it's so clear and unyellowed. Much unlike the clear 500s, which seem to darken with age.

I search for a photo of that phone at the fair but only found this 1938 Pontiac Deluxe Six Ghost Car built by  (cost $25,000 to build in 1939 and sold at auction in the St. John's MI in July 2011 for $308,000).

The car was made of Plexiglass which was created by and brought to market in 1933 by Rohm & Haas. I am posting this because it too did not yellow over time. Many more pictures of the car are posted at a site detailing the auction and discussing the car (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/01/1939-pontiac-ghost-car-commands-308-000-at-auction/#slide-230714) and the material used to build it. The close up below shows no yellowing.

Rohm & Haas sold Plexiglass, DuPont sold Lucite, basically the same stuff. Both were created in the early 30's so either could have been used for either to market the product. GM and Bell had pavilions at the fair.

I think the seller is John Huckby's son Barry.

The 1939 clear 302's were used in the voice  mirror display. It should have a separate "listen-in" Receiver as well.
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>>EDIT to add>> The separate clear Mother-in-law receiver, was not wired to the phone, It was connected to the playback equitiment under the display.
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I have a theory the World's Fair sets were based on the small plunger sets.
{There are variations on these sets.
Here is the chart prepared by Hal Beldon (link is from Paul F.'s site)
http://vintagephone.com/HB302.htm}

    I think all use was tracked and the telephones were tested each night after closing.
The results helped create the standard 302 set.
Some sets may of used a D97758 style F handset.
Similar to this example:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=24688.msg244712

<<EDIT<<
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There are some internet photos that show the separate receiver.   They are part of on on-line collection from the fair.

Here is a picture from 1939 Bell Labs Record.

Quote from: Jim S. on October 17, 2016, 05:46:40 PM
Here is a picture from 1939 Bell Labs Record.

Yes, I was going to show this too.   Notice that the dial appears to have a transparent finger wheel as well.
I have been suspicious that the eBay phone is a reproduction built onto an early base.

As I mentioned... a mixture of parts that don't fit the time line.

In less than a day, it's up to $1,132.99. I seems the modest reserve is higher. Lot of activity for 21 hours.

Barry Huckebee is John ATCA Boss's son. This is just an outstanding phone. Cords can be replaced. I'm sure the WE dude just wanted to get it to work.You will never seen one again in this top flight condition. The sky is the limit. I say $25 K and I might be low. I have a Kotke, but this is just too cool. A lot of deep pockets out there.

The museum will own it...Slick (thanks DP I like it)

Is it clear (see what I did there?) how many of these were produced?

Thanks for all the info on this phone. It was Lucite. Here is some more I found, from our own site. There's a picture of actor Adolphe Menjou using a clear 302.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2092.0 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2092.0)

Quote from: Pourme on October 17, 2016, 08:28:10 PM
Is it clear (see what I did there?) how many of these were produced?

Something Jim posted in the thread above from a book by John Dommer says about 25 were produced. But I'm not too sure of its accuracy. It says "they were produced for the 1939 World's Fair in Chicago." But the Chicago World's Fair was in 1933-34. I guess he meant to say they were produced in Chicago at the Hawthorne Works for the 1939 New York World's Fair. But it's unclear exactly what it means. It's also typed on a typewriter and looks a bit on the amateur side to me. So take it however you wish.

Here is a link to voice mirror.
The "listen In" receivers are visible in front of the phones.
http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/5e66b3e8-b049-d471-e040-e00a180654d7#/?uuid=5e66b3e8-b049-d471-e040-e00a180654d7



http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/5e66b3e8-9334-d471-e040-e00a180654d7

There are multiple images of the 1939 worlds fair set and the extra receiver in the cited photo archive. If someone wants to pull them out and post them it would be nice. 
search american telephone and telegraph.

Thanks,
Jim S.

Quote from: Jim S. on October 17, 2016, 09:49:56 PM
Here is a link to voice mirror.
The "listen In" receivers are visible in front of the phones.
http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/5e66b3e8-b049-d471-e040-e00a180654d7#/?uuid=5e66b3e8-b049-d471-e040-e00a180654d7



http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/5e66b3e8-9334-d471-e040-e00a180654d7

Funny, the 302 the lady is holding is black. I do see the clear listening devices and the girl on the clear 302 (posted below).

Thanks, Jim, for the link to the NY Public Library.

There were two booths in the AT&T exhibit demonstrating toll calls on a stage with an audience. This is where Lucy was sitting when they took the picture--the left booth. You can see they have the same framing of the glass.

Here is the link to the Library picture.

http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/5e66b3e9-23e8-d471-e040-e00a180654d7 (http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/5e66b3e9-23e8-d471-e040-e00a180654d7)

Here are six more pictures from the NY Public Library collection. There's a light control switchboard with a clear handset and there's one of a woman who looks a lot like actress Dorothy Lamour, but I'm not too sure. Also a couple shots showing the separate clear earpiece Jim mentioned.

Quote from: Kenton K on October 17, 2016, 02:43:19 PM
The base is also interesting. It looks 1936-1937 with riveted feet, early 101a, early ringer mount, but the base also has a capacitor boss, which I thought didn't appear till 1938. Very cool.

Black 302s reported with the one oval boss for the condenser have assembly dates between
11-37 and 8-38. Your 302 was the latest reported with small plungers -- 12-37.

Looking at the phone in this image (which seems to be taken in the same booth in which Lucy was sitting)

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16950.0;attach=148887;image)

and comparing it to the only similar side photo in the Auction Contest photos, this subject phone may be a prototype created before the production run of 25, pre-dates the special production run. This is based on a comparison of the plunger which seem to be different in the contest phone that the one in this image. This image has long black plungers where the contest phone was short black plungers on top of a brass internal plunger "extension."

Then again, I may be wrong. It is a fuzzy picture.

This set was made after the D97464; this one has a handset cord exit hole. The D97464's handset cord was fed through the rear line cord exit.

Still, this one has the slots in the base and housing, details of a pre-production 302. It also has an early 5H or later 4H, with the tighter-curved fingerstop (may have been added later). We also can't forget the pre-production handset and vented cradle (also not a feature of a D97464).

How do the details of this set compare to  the bakelite prototype 302?.Sometimes molds were tested with clear plastic to check how everything fit together.Everything looks to early to have any relationship to the 39 fair

Quote from: rdelius on October 18, 2016, 09:45:29 AM
How do the details of this set compare to  the bakelite prototype 302?.Sometimes molds were tested with clear plastic to check how everything fit together.Everything looks to early to have any relationship to the 39 fair

I think you are right. I do believe this is what this is.
The World's Fair telephone shows no sound slots ("vents") under the cradle in one of the pictures, yet this eBay set has all the features of the preproduction sets, including the development receiver capsule.  Why in the world would they have used old transducers when it was prudent to show a top quality product at the fair.

A PMMA plastic housing can probably be molded in the same compression mold as used for Bakelite just with reduced pressure and temperature.  Notice the thick walls just like the Bakelite prototype.

Quote from: unbeldi on October 18, 2016, 10:31:15 AM
The World's Fair telephone shows no sound slots ("vents") under the cradle in one of the pictures . . .

This one photo shows two of the clear sets, one in use and one below the counter top. Both are back views and neither seems to show vent.

Also, a poll has been added to this topic for members to take a guesstimate of where the seller has set the reserve. I am sure the reserve will be met and the special contest converted to a real contest (and maybe not until the auction ends) but I'm looking for what other members think the seller would consider "a modest reserve" on the phone. Take a guess . . .

Quote from: unbeldi on October 17, 2016, 01:26:29 PM
Yes,...
I thought the mixture of parts is interesting.  I wonder whether the World Fair pamphlet was originally connected to this set, or acquired separately.

The parts of the phone appear to be from early 1937, perhaps even 1936.  The receiver capsule is still the development version.
But the handset cord is much younger.

Wasn't the 302 in fairly wide use by 1939 ?
D/P

Quote from: Dan/Panther on October 18, 2016, 11:26:15 AM
Wasn't the 302 in fairly wide use by 1939 ?
D/P

Most certainly, indeed.

The seller quite correctly states that this is a prototype.
It is unfortunate that he, intentionally or not, creates a connection with the World's Fair.
He claims the set came from a Bell employee, so this employee may well have had Fair memorabilia in his possession too.

There are 3 tied top watched phones on eBay as of this post and two of them are auction contests. The only one that isn't is a Ericsson Skeletal Model AC100 desk phone which started at $3,000.

The other two are this clear 302 and the SC Stick, all 3 of these have 73 watchers.

The phone in 4th place only has 56 watchers. The excitement grows for snipe time on this clear prototype. Should be interesting.

The "Voice Mirror"  display had a visitor speake into a handset while their friend listened in on, Their voice was then played back, The listen-in recie ver was so their friend could say "That is what you sound like" .
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My clear 302 housing is a small plunger set. It has the solid grip (no vents). I bought it as a damaged housing only. This set is the only other plastic small plunger set that I know of.

Here is a link for small plunger 302's
http://vintagephone.com/HB302.htm

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It is very possible the Worlds fair sets used different components among the sets used @ the fair.( I would guess all the sets might be small plunger sets)

Bell Labs used events like the worlds fair to gather data, A lot of the data was observational on how people use phones, they would give free hearing test to get an idea of hearing ranges among age groups ect.

I could see them trying different components and testing them daily or after the fair to see how things held-up.

JMO,
Jim S.

Most clear 302's you see appear to be Retirement sets from the early 40's and later. The other clear 302 style that comes up are the Clear "colored" sets. These were used in telephone company displays with colored 302's. They are built like a color 302 and have a clear housing.  I also know of a 2-line rose tint clear 302. The handset was replaced with an early clear handset very similar to the one on this set.

Quote from: Jim S. on October 21, 2016, 12:10:28 PMI also know of a 2-line rose tint clear 302. The handset was replaced with an early clear handset very similar to the one on this set.

Sonny acquired a clear 302 with rose tint about 20 years ago. The guy that sold it to him was the son of one of the top executives at one of the midwest Bell companies. Sonny listed it on Ebay, and the winning bidder (for about $5K) said that the tinted clear phones were made earlier than the other clear phones. He said that there had also been another tinted color, possibly blue? In any case, Bell decided to go with the non-tinted version for the bulk of the small production.

That sounds like the same set. The collector who won it has a lot of "unique" WE telephones.
Jim S.

The reserve was $3,950 and while nobody voted for $3,500 to $3,999, two did select $4,000.