1959 Tenite and ABS switch over sets

[WEBellSystemChristian]

I gave it a sniff and it does not smell like anything. Although, I have not yet tried heating up the plastic.The surface is very smooth, as compared to another ABS plastic phone. Also, the tap is a much higher sound than other soft plastic sets.

What gets me is that the center hole is not punched out, which to me is a clear indication. Yet, I am now realizing that it is possible that A.) Early ABS caps did not have a center hole or the more unlikely B.) plastics were mis-matched.

Ben

My Pink Mushroom (pretty good comparison set to use as I realize it now) has both caps without center holes, and it's all ABS.  I'm pretty sure WE didn't use center holes until the early '60s.

[unbeldi]

Those are good observations, and probably confirm that it is ABS.   While a surface can certainly be polished to a high degree, it seems to me that an ABS surface always has a higher gloss.

ABS has a higher impact resistance than Tenite, often called toughness as well. This would mean higher sound velocities inside the material, and the often heard claim that they sound less dull than the Tenite phones, but frankly I haven't found that a reliable experiment, at least not for my ears.

As for the lack of the center hole in the caps, it is not at all clear to me how it relates to the plastic issue. Clearly they used a different type of mold, but haven't found a rule that says it's one or the other type of plastic.  All that I found, is that by the time the ink stamps disappeared, so did the hole-less caps, that is by 1 Jan 60.

[WesternElectricBen]

As for the lack of the center hole in the caps, it is not at all clear to me how it relates to the plastic issue. Clearly they used a different type of mold, but haven't found a rule that says it's one or the other type of plastic.  All that I found, is that by the time the ink stamps disappeared, so did the hole-less caps, that is by 1 Jan 60.

When I got my first soft plastic phone, I was told that's how to identify it, about 4 years ago. What I had assumed is that the switched to a punched center hole cap in ABS from Tenite with out a center hole. My long time hunch was it could be easily identified what sort of plastic was used, if ever important.

Ben

[podor]

I have a numbers matching moss green 564 from 6/63. I'm still not convinced is ABS. All af my 565s and 564s that are hard plastic have a distinctly different tone. The green one also has the "sticky" feel when you tap it. It has an open fingerwheel and round key buttons and clear hold button. The hand set is stamped G3 with the center holes. Legos are made from ABS. It may not be the best example, but there is a definite consistency with the ABS phones. They are both super hard, very good high gloss finish and very painful when stepped on (well, maybe not the phone).

[andre_janew]

As I understand it, Western Electric started making ABS cases in the late 1950s.  Even so, there were still some soft plastic cases around that they had to use first.  Single line phones could've used ABS first, followed by the multi-line phones a few years later. 

[unbeldi]

As I understand it, Western Electric started making ABS cases in the late 1950s.  Even so, there were still some soft plastic cases around that they had to use first.  Single line phones could've used ABS first, followed by the multi-line phones a few years later.

Western Electric and Bell Laboratories were known for research not only into telecommunications and electronics, but also into industrial management, project management, process and delivery chain efficiency and others.  By the late 1950 they had a staff of almost half a thousand people working in Princeton, NJ at the Engineering Research Center working on manufacturing methodologies.  Some of this appears a forerunner of just-in-time manufacturing that later revolutionized the auto industry.

So, to state that there ''were still some soft plastic cases around" probably didn't fit well with their cost saving measures. Space was always at a premium and it is hard to conceive that large quantities of anything were stored for more than a quarter, which was the time interval by which all Bell operating companies had to report anticipated parts and equipment needs.

The only telephones that still used Tenite into the 1960s were black.  There was not much reason to reengineer the manufacturing of black sets in 1959/60 because Princess sets were not planned on being made in black finish, and the black plastic wasn't subject as much to staining from household substances and cosmetics.

This changed when the 702 models were indeed issued in black in 1963, for whichever reason is an interesting puzzle in itself.  Some claim that it was Jackie Kennedy who persuaded influential personnel to deliver eight black Princesses for their country estate. However, the color black for the Princesses was still not a promoted color, likely because they didn't have the manufacturing efficiency for black ABS, as all black 500-sets were still using Tenite. In 1964, the production of all black telephones finally switched to using ABS plastics as well.

Dec.1962: Early black Princess from eastern VA (C&P Tel.Co.)

So, when we find the many black multi-line key sets, as well as standard SLTs, having Tenite housings in the early 60s, this is the reason.  By ca. 1964 they also used ABS. Colored key sets already used ABS.

[JimH]

Since the black Princesses were not promoted, makes me wonder why they didn't just have a refurb shop spray some Princess base shells black and add a black G1 handset.  Especially for that small of an order. My black Princess from 10-63 has a G1 handset.  It seems too heavy for a Princess, but I'm certain it is original.  I also have an "Imperial" ten button 1702 Princess.  It too, came with a black G1 handset.  I don't think they made the G3 handsets in black until at least the late 1960s, I could be wrong.

[unbeldi]

Since the black Princesses were not promoted, makes me wonder why they didn't just have a refurb shop spray some Princess base shells black and add a black G1 handset.  Especially for that small of an order. My black Princess from 10-63 has a G1 handset.  It seems too heavy for a Princess, but I'm certain it is original.  I also have an "Imperial" ten button 1702 Princess.  It too, came with a black G1 handset.  I don't think they made the G3 handsets in black until at least the late 1960s, I could be wrong.

No, that is not correct.  G1s were never original on factory Princesses.
Yours must have been a refurb.
I have one of the earliest black Princesses and 702s you could possibly find (12/62 702 base) and the plastics are from 3/63.

I have another black Princess from 1965, with proper plastics.

I would think that just a paint job was not deemed satisfactory for a president, if the story is true that it was Kennedy who persuaded them to make them.


PS: The interesting part of the story of my early black Princess is that March 63 was also the Month that the Kennedy Wexford estate was ready for family occupancy. So if Kennedy indeed persuaded the company to make them in black, 3/63 was exactly the time they needed to be ready. The Princess that is exhibited in a museum in VA as one of Kennedy's was also made in March 1963. Wexford was located only 36 miles from the place where I got mine.

[unbeldi]

Here is another piece of the switch-over history.
I am showing two black 554 housings, left stamped in 1957 in yellow ink (6 4 57 1) and the right one having a molded mark P|60 with three tick marks for March.  These two shells are absolutely identical in every feature except for the date insert.  They even have the same mold number, a large 5, or whatever those numbers actually mean.  I believe they simply drilled the mold to be able to insert those marking rods.

I also wasn't able to detect any differences in the plastic material.

[JimH]

Interesting, Unbeldi.  Possibly a refurb shop did not give much thought to re-issuing a fairly "new" color for a Princess phone with an incorrect handset.  Since we know that G3 handsets existed in black in 1963-1965, is it fair to say that black ones of those years were only used on black Princess phones?  Has anyone ever seen an original  500 or 554 in black from say, 1963 or 1964 that doesn't have a G1 (bakelite) handset?  These telephones would still have had the black painted fingerwheels, too, I believe.  I've only seen G1s on black 500s and 554s up until the late 60s.  Perhaps Western Electric used up existing stock of G1s for their non-Princess phones for those years, or do you suppose they still made the old heavy G1s while producing the black G3s?

Jim

[unbeldi]

Interesting, Unbeldi.  Possibly a refurb shop did not give much thought to re-issuing a fairly "new" color for a Princess phone with an incorrect handset.  Since we know that G3 handsets existed in black in 1963-1965, is it fair to say that black ones of those years were only used on black Princess phones?  Has anyone ever seen an original  500 or 554 in black from say, 1963 or 1964 that doesn't have a G1 (bakelite) handset?  These telephones would still have had the black painted fingerwheels, too, I believe.  I've only seen G1s on black 500s and 554s up until the late 60s.  Perhaps Western Electric used up existing stock of G1s for their non-Princess phones for those years, or do you suppose they still made the old heavy G1s while producing the black G3s?

Jim

That is correct, I think.  Perhaps this shop didn't stock black plastic G3s, because they just didn't see many of the Princesses being returned (since they didn't sell many, not being promoted) and the 500 sets didn't use them yet. Or the repairman's truck didn't have them, perhaps that's more likely.

G3s were used on black sets with the transition to ABS plastics in ca. 1964, when they also switched to Lucite finger wheels with solid center window on black 500s.  By sometime in 1965, colored and black 500-sets were constructed identically.  All sets were now also delivered with a No. 9 dial.

[unbeldi]

Ben, I compared the date mark in your yellow handset with a handset from a gray set that I think is ABS, and which was apparently made or assembled ca 5 days before yours, and it seems they were molded in the same mold, mold no. 31.  The mark in your handset and in mine are identical in details, as far as I can see using pictures.  The distribution and spacing and imprint strength of the tick marks seem identical.  Only detail, I seem to have a slight depression that may indicate another tick mark, not sure.

The date on the dial and on the base of mine is November though, not 10.

The handset caps also don't have the center hole yet and there are no ink stamps inside the caps.  However, the caps are embossed into the plastic with a tiny date reading "10C59" (RX) and "9C59" (TX).  I have included a high resolution picture which can be enlarged to show them.

It is probably interesting to note that these date marks came in two varieties.  Those with a C and those with a P.  Poplar1, earlier in this thread mentioned  date marks of the form "6-59P", which I have observed variously as well.

The date clocks on the housings also come in those two varieties, C and P.  In my previous post here, I showed a 554 housing with P.  Statistically, I have seen more black housings and handsets with P, and more colored ones with C.  I don't think anyone knows the meaning of these yet.

Another gray set of mine has  "7C59" in the receiver cap, but apparently nothing in the tx cap, at least I didn't write it in my logs and I don't have pics inside. The set is dated 8-59 on the base, and the handset is ink-stamped "6-59", and my notes state that it is CAB Tenite, whereas the caps are ABS.  The housing is stamped "7 6 59 2", and I declared it as ABS.

[WesternElectricBen]

Interesting, I guess I have never noticed the C and P marking.

In the end, I think you are right that this is ABS. It seems to have all of the indicators.

Ben

[poplar1]

Since the black Princesses were not promoted, makes me wonder why they didn't just have a refurb shop spray some Princess base shells black and add a black G1 handset.  Especially for that small of an order. My black Princess from 10-63 has a G1 handset.  It seems too heavy for a Princess, but I'm certain it is original.  I also have an "Imperial" ten button 1702 Princess.  It too, came with a black G1 handset.  I don't think they made the G3 handsets in black until at least the late 1960s, I could be wrong.

Jim, is your Princess an all-dates-matching, never rebuilt set? If it has been refurbished, there is usually a rebuilt date on the bottom (R10-68 for example), and some of the parts will have newer dates.

Jim and Unbeldi,
I believe that new black 500s continued to have G1A (Bakelite) handsets for a while, even after black G3s were available. My grandmother got a new black 500 with black 283B plug installed by Southern Bell in early 1965; it was a new (not rebuilt) set dated 7-64, with G1 handset, 7D dial (metal finger wheel), and clear plungers. (It was a gift from my uncle, who also ordered three 404B jacks installed. On the Christmas card, he pasted playing cards and the title "Three jacks for a queen.")

We purchased last year about 50 still-in-the box  black 500s, all remanufactured at the Atlanta WE shops in late 1964
(WAR 10-64, for example). About half have new G3 handles, and half have buffed (used) G1s. They all have metal finger wheels. A few have 7A dials and early 50s housings.

[poplar1]

Interesting, I guess I have never noticed the C and P marking.

In the end, I think you are right that this is ABS. It seems to have all of the indicators.

Ben

Ben, did you see any dates, or other markings, on the caps?