News:

"The phone is a remarkably complex, simple device,
and very rarely ever needs repairs, once you fix them." - Dan/Panther

Main Menu

1959 Tenite and ABS switch over sets

Started by WesternElectricBen, July 25, 2015, 09:52:20 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

unbeldi

Quote from: poplar1 on July 29, 2015, 11:19:39 AM
I believe that new black 500s continued to have G1A (Bakelite) handsets for a while, even after black G3s were available. My grandmother got a new black 500 with black 283B plug installed by Southern Bell in early 1965; it was a new (not rebuilt) set dated 7-64, with G1 handset, 7D dial (metal finger wheel), and clear plungers. (It was a gift from my uncle, who also ordered three 404B jacks installed. On the Christmas card, he pasted playing cards and the title "Three jacks for a queen.")

I think that falls right in place with the timeline that I outlined earlier.  A black set assembled in 7-64 should still have in all likelihood a 7D dial and a G1A handset.  A little of a surprise may be the lucite plungers, but 64 probably was a transition year like 59.

unbeldi

Quote from: poplar1 on July 29, 2015, 11:21:34 AM
Quote from: WesternElectricBen on July 29, 2015, 11:13:54 AM
Interesting, I guess I have never noticed the C and P marking.

In the end, I think you are right that this is ABS. It seems to have all of the indicators.

Ben

Ben, did you see any dates, or other markings, on the caps?

When I looked at Ben's pictures, I think I noticed that the caps may have dates in them, but the resolution was not high enough to even be certain they were dates.

WesternElectricBen

Here is the full picture of the caps.

Ben

unbeldi

#33
Thanks, Ben.   I do seem to detect a  C59 on both caps, but what is before that is unreadable mostly.

The transmitter cap may be 8C59.


WEBellSystemChristian

Personally, I would prefer an ABS phone to restore rather than a Tenite one. ABS polishes out nicer, is smoother and less 'sticky', and just easier to restore overall. I personally don't care very much if a phone is ABS over Tenite, as long as it's still '50s or early '60s.

You can still say you have a '50s Yellow 500!
Christian Petterson

"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right" -Henry Ford

unbeldi

Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on July 29, 2015, 12:29:49 PM
Personally, I would prefer an ABS phone to restore rather than a Tenite one. ABS polishes out nicer, is smoother and less 'sticky', and just easier to restore overall. I personally don't care very much if a phone is ABS over Tenite, as long as it's still '50s or early '60s.

You can still say you have a '50s Yellow 500!

I think that's a good attitude, and you're right about the gloss on ABS.  There is nothing to be ashamed of having a nice 50s phone of any material.

WesternElectricBen

Too be honest, it doesn't bother me that it isn't tenite. What bothers me is that my YouTube videos is not completely accurate.

Ben

JimH

#37
Quote from: poplar1 on July 29, 2015, 11:19:39 AM
Quote from: JimH on July 28, 2015, 06:16:03 PM
Since the black Princesses were not promoted, makes me wonder why they didn't just have a refurb shop spray some Princess base shells black and add a black G1 handset.  Especially for that small of an order. My black Princess from 10-63 has a G1 handset.  It seems too heavy for a Princess, but I'm certain it is original.  I also have an "Imperial" ten button 1702 Princess.  It too, came with a black G1 handset.  I don't think they made the G3 handsets in black until at least the late 1960s, I could be wrong.

Jim, is your Princess an all-dates-matching, never rebuilt set? If it has been refurbished, there is usually a rebuilt date on the bottom (R10-68 for example), and some of the parts will have newer dates.

I just examined my black Princess.  On the bottom it's dated 10-63, no refurb date.  The plastic case is stamped C-63 with 5 hash marks (for May?).  cords are "63".   Dial bracket is stamped III-63.  Ringer 9-63.  Now the interesting part is that the G1 handset is stamped "62", but it has ABS caps, and the transmitter unit is marked 9-13-60, and the receiver is 4-3-57.  Now my question is, at the "factory", (not a refurb shop), did they always use ALL new components?  Were old (marked in red as "tested", etc) components only used in refurb shops?  I would think the factory got in huge cases of tested old components already marked in red with new dates to build "new" phones at the factory.  It would seem that this is what mine is.  With chassis and component dates all third quarter '63, the case marked '63, (and nothing dated later), it would seem that it was built this way from new.

Jim

Jim H.

unbeldi

#38
Quote from: JimH on July 29, 2015, 06:50:22 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on July 29, 2015, 11:19:39 AM
Quote from: JimH on July 28, 2015, 06:16:03 PM
Since the black Princesses were not promoted, makes me wonder why they didn't just have a refurb shop spray some Princess base shells black and add a black G1 handset.  Especially for that small of an order. My black Princess from 10-63 has a G1 handset.  It seems too heavy for a Princess, but I'm certain it is original.  I also have an "Imperial" ten button 1702 Princess.  It too, came with a black G1 handset.  I don't think they made the G3 handsets in black until at least the late 1960s, I could be wrong.

Jim, is your Princess an all-dates-matching, never rebuilt set? If it has been refurbished, there is usually a rebuilt date on the bottom (R10-68 for example), and some of the parts will have newer dates.

I just examined my black Princess.  On the bottom it's dated 10-63, no refurb date.  The plastic case is stamped C-63 with 5 hash marks (for May?).  cords are "63".   Dial bracket is stamped III-63.  Ringer 9-63.  Now the interesting part is that the G1 handset is stamped "62", but it has ABS caps, and the transmitter unit is marked 9-13-60, and the receiver is 4-3-57.  Now my question is, at the "factory", (not a refurb shop), did they always use ALL new components?  Were old (marked in red as "tested", etc) components only used in refurb shops?  I would think the factory got in huge cases of tested old components already marked in red with new dates to build "new" phones at the factory.  It would seem that this is what mine is.  With chassis and component dates all third quarter '63, the case marked '63, (and nothing dated later), it would seem that it was built this way from new.

Jim

The factories never got old equipment back, I don't think. That was not their role.  It was the regional distribution centers that got returns from the telcos and refurbished them there. In addition there were refurbishing shops outside the distribution centers, I believe.  Some had extensive facilities for refurbishing so that it looked like a factory by itself. Some telcos did their own refurbishing too, because the cost for the WECo process was high.

So your housing is a fairly early one too. Yes, that is May 63. Perhaps the handset got broken in the field and the repairman simply swapped a handset onto the unit that he had in the truck.  It really seems very wrong to have a G1 on it, it's too heavy. The plastics of the Princess is rather delicate and the ends are easily fractured.  I remember fracturing one when I simply polished it, but the ABS is easy to weld with solvent and it polished to a perfect surface.


unbeldi

#39
Some time ago I posted a booklet about the Washington service center in this post:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12674.msg133245#msg133245

It shows pictures of the magnitude of the operation, they quote that they refurbish 1.2 million telephones per year, that is over 3000 per day, or almost 5 telephones every minute if they work around the clock.  It is hard to conceive they wouldn't have the correct parts ready.

Some of the equipment refurbished in fact could not be sent back to the factory, because it remained property of the local telephone company that was associated with the local service center. Equipment often was tagged as belonging to the telephone company. Having this equipment going back to the factories, would be cost prohibitive to keep separate.

I think, if your Princess was in fact refurbished at a service center it would have had the correct handset. The centers restored equipment to original specifications.  But doing so using tested and restored parts.

Where did you find your black Princess?

JimH

#40
Great booklet!  And thank you for the information.  I believe I purchased the black Princess on ebay, I do not remember where it came from.  I should keep track of this better, at the time it didn't seem important.  I can see now that it could be.

Jim
Jim H.

RotarDad

#41
I thought I would share some additional 500 handset cap data.  I have the following:

1) 12-57 black mouthpiece cap stamped in red ink, definitely bakelite.
2) 3-58 black cap set stamped in ink, yellow I believe but can't verify color now, both plastic.  U-1 & T-1 for this handset both 3-27-58.

This would mean the transition from bakelite to plastic for black caps happened in this period.

3) 11-57 Ivory with mid '58 handset.  This one is interesting.  Ear cap is marked 5P58 in the plastic, but mouth cap is ink stamped 5-58 in green ink.  U-1 & T-1 both 6-5-58.  Handset stamped both 4-58 in yellow ink and also has a molded 57 with 7 ticks for July.

I would guess the ink to molded date transition for caps occurred in May '58.

4) 8-58 Yellow cap set both marked 8P58 in the plastic.

All caps have no center hole of course.
Paul

jsowers

Quote from: RotarDad on July 29, 2015, 10:58:15 PM
I would guess the ink to molded date transition for caps occurred in May '58.

Here's an aqua blue cap ink marked 5-59. I checked through all my pictures of late-58 up to 9-59 and this was the latest ink stamp on a cap. Most phones had the molded-in stamp, but a few had one cap with an ink stamp. Also included are pics of a 4-59 stamp on white and 12-58 on ivory. I also saw caps with just a red ink dot on them. I'm not sure what that meant.

This evidence suggests they used molds that didn't include a date at least until 5-59. I can't give you evidence on whether the plastic types differ on the stamped vs. the molded-in dates, but I have noticed some molded-in caps being a different type of plastic than Tenite on an otherwise Tenite phone from early 1959 with the dates matching. As was said earlier, it looks like they did some early experimentation with different plastics before the 6-59 changeover.
Jonathan

RotarDad

Jonathan - Thanks for all details.  That proves my theory incorrect on the phase-out of the ink stamps.  I'm a detail guy, so I really appreciate the "phone forensics".  I pulled out another phone, a black '59.  Both caps say 2P59 in the plastic.  Were there multiple plants making these that would explain the different methods being used concurrently?
Paul

jsowers

Paul, I think the incised dates were part of the mold that made the caps. Either that or someone painstakingly heat-molded them into each cap. They're so uniform that they don't look handmade to me. I'm sure you've seen the variations in the ink stamped dates and how some are clear and legible and others are smeared and illegible.

So if the dates were in the mold, and there were some still hand-stamped and fewer and fewer as time wore on, it seems like when the molds without the dates aged out, they were replaced by molds with dates until they were all phased out. But that's only a theory and anyone else can chime in if they disagree.

I think it was all one huge plant, but different molds. Molds were replaced on a regular basis, but they didn't just throw them out when a change came along because they were very expensive. I've read articles about how they cleaned the molds after every use and how much went into making a mold. It was very labor-intensive. It would be wonderful if someone could go to Indianapolis and could interview former plant employees and then write something about how these phones were made, before they all pass away.

I'm a detail person too. I love phone forensics and always take pictures of each phone's details. When I open a date matching phone up for the first time, it's interesting to imagine how it was made and I think many times I'm the next person to turn some of those screws after some "girl" at the plant in the 1950s.
Jonathan