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Ivory Western Electric

Started by poplar1, May 21, 2014, 10:39:15 AM

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unbeldi

#15
.

unbeldi

#16
Printed color pictures can be misleading, but here is a picture of a 500D-50 from a Bell System marketing booklet, that I posted sometime in the past and just linked here:



WesternElectricBen

Cool display, cowboy Frank uses the same displays at the phone shows.

Ben

unbeldi

#18
Quote from: poplar1 on May 21, 2014, 03:42:34 PM
The 302 shown is also a darker ivory. This seems to be typical of early ivory sets. ........  nothing to indicate it's not original other than the black number card holder.
I remember this ivory 302 on eBay recently. It didn't sell for around $65 because of the reserve.
We take notice that it too has black plungers, despite not being from a war-restricted period. I can't remember now, were they supposed to paint the plungers before thermoplastic housings?


I tried analyzing the date stamps on the dial and the base by downloading the higher resolution pictures than we were directly shown on the listing, but this was not enough to unambiguously identify the "40" in the stamp on the base, but other components do show 40.  The dial appears marked III 4? 5J, where I can't identify the last digit of the year unambiguously, but it does have the shape of a zero.  But it is noteworthy that the dial was dated by the quarter, not the month.  Do we know when they changed that?

poplar1

#19
Manufacturing date stamp on back of dials changed from month to quarter sometime between 230 and I 31.
Then it changed back to month-year by 6-44.


Quote from: unbeldi on May 22, 2014, 12:38:43 PM

  The dial appears marked III 4? 5J, where I can't identify the last digit of the year unambiguously, but it does have the shape of a zero.  But it is noteworthy that the dial was dated by the quarter, not the month.  Do we know when they changed that?
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

poplar1

As stated in reply #6, this one is dated 9-40. The other dates are as follows:
5J Dial III 40 with correct stainless steel finger wheel
Brown Bakelite handset 10 (1/40)
F1 xmtr unit 6/40
HA1 rec unit 2-23-40
H3C-4 handset cord IV39



Quote from: unbeldi on May 22, 2014, 12:38:43 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on May 21, 2014, 03:42:34 PM
The 302 shown is also a darker ivory. This seems to be typical of early ivory sets. ........  nothing to indicate it's not original other than the black number card holder.
I remember this ivory 302 on eBay recently. It didn't sell for around $65 because of the reserve.
We take notice that it too has black plungers, despite not being from a war-restricted period. I can't remember now, were they supposed to paint the plungers before thermoplastic housings?


I tried analyzing the date stamps on the dial and the base by downloading the higher resolution pictures than we were directly shown on the listing, but this was not enough to unambiguously identify the "40" in the stamp on the base, but other components do show 40.  The dial appears marked III 4? 5J, where I can't identify the last digit of the year unambiguously, but it does have the shape of a zero.  But it is noteworthy that the dial was dated by the quarter, not the month.  Do we know when they changed that?
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

poplar1

This one sold on 5/10: It has been repainted at some point, yet all the dates match other than the transmitter:

Base: 3-40
5J Dial II 40 with stainless finger wheel and stainless card holder
painted brown handset grooveless 129 (12/39)
F1 xmtr 1-73
HA1 rec 3-21-40
H3C-4   '40
black plungers

For reference, here is the info on a 1/40 302G-12 (Dark Gold):

Base 1/40
5H Dial II 40, correct gold painted finger wheel
Painted brown grooveless handset 99 (9/39)
transmitter 4/40
receiver 5-27-40
handset cord H3C gold
mounting cord D3AL gold
plungers Black
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

I am a little suspicious about this handset being from 12/39, could it be 12/49?  If you look at the logo inscription, it does not appear to me to match to inscription of other handsets before WWII. The inscription reads:

BELL SYSTEM
MADE BY
WESTERN ELECTRIC
F1

This is what was standard after the war or so.  Until the mid 1940s, they always used the company name as  "Western Electric Company", I believe. After the war they shortened it to just "Western Electric".
But perhaps my observation database is not large enough.


Quote from: poplar1 on May 22, 2014, 04:37:54 PM
This one sold on 5/10: It has been repainted at some point, yet all the dates match other than the transmitter:

Base: 3-40
5J Dial II 40 with stainless finger wheel and stainless card holder
painted brown handset grooveless 129 (12/39)
F1 xmtr 1-73
HA1 rec 3-21-40
H3C-4   '40
black plungers

For reference, here is the info on a 1/40 302G-12 (Dark Gold):

Base 1/40
5H Dial II 40, correct gold painted finger wheel
Painted brown grooveless handset 99 (9/39)
transmitter 4/40
receiver 5-27-40
handset cord H3C gold
mounting cord D3AL gold
plungers Black

unbeldi

#23
.

poplar1

Extremely doubtful since this would be several years after they realized the problems of insufficient hardening of solid core handsets. Also, Paul's chart shows both "MADE BY" and "MANUFACTURED BY" logos on Bell System solid core handles from 1937-1940/41.

http://paul-f.com/we300typ.htm#F1evolution

Quote from: unbeldi on June 02, 2014, 03:50:44 PM
I am a little suspicious about this handset being from 12/39, could it be 12/49?  If you look at the logo inscription, it does not appear to me to match to inscription of other handsets before WWII. The inscription reads:

BELL SYSTEM
MADE BY
WESTERN ELECTRIC
F1

This is what was standard after the war or so.  Until the mid 1940s, they always used the company name as  "Western Electric Company", I believe. After the war they shortened it to just "Western Electric".
But perhaps my observation database is not large enough.


Quote from: poplar1 on May 22, 2014, 04:37:54 PM
This one sold on 5/10: It has been repainted at some point, yet all the dates match other than the transmitter:

Base: 3-40
5J Dial II 40 with stainless finger wheel and stainless card holder
painted brown handset grooveless 129 (12/39)
F1 xmtr 1-73
HA1 rec 3-21-40
H3C-4   '40
black plungers

For reference, here is the info on a 1/40 302G-12 (Dark Gold):

Base 1/40
5H Dial II 40, correct gold painted finger wheel
Painted brown grooveless handset 99 (9/39)
transmitter 4/40
receiver 5-27-40
handset cord H3C gold
mounting cord D3AL gold
plungers Black
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

#25
Quote from: poplar1 on June 02, 2014, 05:56:47 PM
Extremely doubtful since this would be several years after they realized the problems of insufficient hardening of solid core handsets. Also, Paul's chart shows both "MADE BY" and "MANUFACTURED BY" logos on Bell System solid core handles from 1937-1940/41.

http://paul-f.com/we300typ.htm#F1evolution

That aspect is true, but I don't think they abbreviated the company name early on. The brown handset would be the only one.  IIRC, there is also a mistake in Paul's chart w/r/t the company name somewhere.
Do you have examples of hollow brown handsets?


PS:  Handset types 10) on Paul's chart should not have the word 'Company' in it. It was just "Western Electric".

We clearly need more data on brown handsets.

poplar1

I have a rose pink 202 remanufactured in 1952 with a hollow, brown F1 handle dated 99 (9/49). The ivory 7-54 Continental shown in Reply #1 of this topic has a brown handset but I will have to check the date later.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

#27
Quote from: poplar1 on June 02, 2014, 06:26:58 PM
I have a rose pink 202 remanufactured in 1952 with a hollow, brown F1 handle dated 99 (9/49). The ivory 7-54 Continental shown in Reply #1 of this topic has a brown handset but I will have to check the date later.

Great, please check the inscription too.
Oh, if you don't mind while you're at it...... which ones have separate screw terminals for the leads?
Another Q: Should we assume that the features on the brown handset follow pretty much those of the blacks?

poplar1

That one is 74 (7/54) and "MADE BY." I checked the 129 (12/39) on the 3/40 repainted 302 again--it is solid core but it has the later MADE BY logo as you observed. So far, that is the only one I've found where the "MADE BY" is on a 1939 handset.

Here are all the ones I checked:
SOLID:
99 (9/39)    MANUFACTURED BY    on 1/40 gold 302                            F1
129(12/39) MADE BY                    on Ivory 302 3/40                           F1
10 (1/40)    MANUFACTURED BY    on Ivory 302 9/40                           F1

HOLLOW:
99 (9/49)    MADE BY                    on rose 202  r. 1952                        F1
91 (9/51)    MADE BY                    on Gold 305 6/40, refurbished 51?  F1
74 (7/54)    MADE BY                    on Ivory 202 r. 1954                        F4
124(12/54) MADE BY                    on Ivory 202                                    ?
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

#29
What about the company name in each case:  "WESTERN ELECTRIC COMPANY" vs. "WESTERN ELECTRIC"
MADE/MANUFACTURED BY is not the only difference.

I lust looked at a few undocumented handsets in a box and found an F1W with WESTERN ELECTRIC COMPANY. of 9/47 ("97").
So far, all my BELL SYSTEM F1s from the period after WWII do not have COMPANY.

Quote from: poplar1 on June 02, 2014, 08:27:49 PM
That one is 74 (7/54) and "MADE BY." I checked the 129 (12/39) on the 3/40 repainted 302 again--it is solid core but it has the later MADE BY logo as you observed. So far, that is the only one I've found where the "MADE BY" is on a 1939 handset.

Here are all the ones I checked:
SOLID:
99 (9/39)    MANUFACTURED BY    on 1/40 gold 302                            F1
129(12/39) MADE BY                    on Ivory 302 3/40                           F1
10 (1/40)    MANUFACTURED BY    on Ivory 302 9/40                           F1

HOLLOW:
99 (9/49)    MADE BY                    on rose 202  r. 1952                        F1
91 (9/51)    MADE BY                    on Gold 305 6/40, refurbished 51?  F1
74 (7/54)    MADE BY                    on Ivory 202 r. 1954                        F4
124(12/54) MADE BY                    on Ivory 202                                    ?