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Green/Gold 202 with 685A Subset, Special or Frankenphone?

Started by TelePlay, April 15, 2012, 02:47:18 AM

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TelePlay

Got this as the fourth bidder on eBay for $36 plus $14 for shipping.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/120887832779

Arrived today. Can anyone tell me what I have? Be honest. I have no idea of why this phone would have been assembled this way in 1955.

The handset is painted cream. It's an F1 with a T1 transmitter held in the handset using two adapter rings, one on each side of the 8-23-55 A transmitter in the cap. The receiver is a #444 dated 8-12-55. It looks like the handset was rewired from an older wiring set up to the newer elements. There are a few very small dings in the paint showing the black bakelite handset but the paint seems factory applied, not a rattle can coating. The receiver cap does not have a center hole.

The coiled handset cord fits well and matches in color and the retainer in the base has HC4J and T II on one side and 6-9 on the other side.

The dial is dated 6-55 and seems to be an 8D. I did not remove the dial from the base but after a lot of careful inspection under magnification, I think I got those numbers right. The metal dial has "Western Electric and Made in USA" embossed on the metal under the 8D ink. Both the 6-55 and 8D are black ink.

The base pad seems to be white leather which is intact but dirty and marked up enough that it needs to be replaced. It had 5 of those anti-slip triangular pads on the leather but were removed before I got the phone.

The base seems to have been a D-20 or D-26 or D-28 before it was field struck out with an "X" and a 1 placed after the "X."

The base coating is gold/brass/bronze and in very good condition. The "Western Electric Made in USA Patent 1508484 Pat Pend" on the lower rear of the base was stamped into the base after the finish was applied as seen in the rear photo. Also note, a brass grommet protects the cords coming out of the base. The handset plunger is a white plastic, not painted, that seems to be factory made and in perfect condition.

The only number I could find inside the base was P224756. The number is embossed so it was placed there when the base was cast. There is a small diamond with a symbol inside the diamond another on just above it and to the right. I have no idea what any of that means. There were no other numbers or markings inside the base, which was in very clean condition.

The subset is a 685A with dates matching or very close to 7-67. The person who owned the phone apparently didn't know how to line up the mounting posts attached to the subset base so instead of using the screws to hold the plastic case onto the base, they used tape. That allowed a lot of dust to collect inside but no corrosion was found.

The 6 pair cord connecting the base to the subset was only attached to 3 terminals on the 425E Network dated 6-67. The ringer was stamped II-67. I assume the 685A subset was added 12 years after the phone went into service.

The only problem with the phone is a sticky dial.

So, what do I have here? Something special, a Frankenphone or a combination of the two? And I think it's well worth the $50 I paid for it and it was a 7 day auction. Did I bite the bear or did the bear bite me?

Thanks for any and all help and info on this phone. And, what should I do to the phone to get it back to "original" condition, if that's not what it is now?

TelePlay

Here's the subset interior and a close up of the number inside the base.

Phonesrfun

In the 1950s the bell system recycled a lot of D1 bases to make Imperials, Continentals, and other special issue phones.

Often when they did, they used #6dials, 685 subsets (500 type technology) and matched the 685 subset with T1 transmitters and U1 Receivers but kept the F style handle on the handset.

This is either a special issue gold phone, or it is a Frankenphone made to look like one.

For sure, the handset cord is not right, and I don't need to point out that the line cord using inside station wire is totally incorrect.

I would say it is a keeper, because with a couple of cords from oldphoneworks and a once-over on the dial, you will have a very close looking phone to the gold Imperial.

Check to see if the transmitter and receiver elements are T1 and U1.  If so, I would get a 5-wire deskset cord and wire it to the 685 subset the way it should to take advantage of the 500 style technology.

Some Frankenphones just aren't all that bad.

-Bill G

TelePlay

Thanks, Bill.

They were using that 6 pair grey station wire to connect the base to the subset. It did not come with a line cord. As soon as I opened the subset, I could tell the wiring was not correct so just removed the 3 wires that were still connected to get them out of the way.

Now, would you stick with the white handset or go with a black handset and black cord straight vinyl cord. Either way, I assume the line cord should match the handset cord, right? But if I went with a black handset, I guess that would no longer make it an Imperial and more of a frankenphone, right?

I picked up a 202 about 6 months ago without a subset and added a 302 to it. It worked well. I found both the 302 and 500 subset wiring diagrams when doing that so wiring the 685 to this 202 should not be a problem once I get the right cords.

Just went downstairs and did a double check and it does have a T1 and U1 transmitter and receiver, respectively.

The pictures I posted are true to color. What color would you call that D1 base. Looking at the WE color charts on Paul-f's web site, there are several that could fit and having never seen any of these colors, I'm at a loss for selecting the correct color. The early WE colors list

-6 Old Brass
-7 Statuary Bronze
-11 Gold, Medium
-19 Gray-Green

and others but never having seen a color chart, it could be any one of a few of these. So, is it your opinion that this is the -11 medium gold coating?

Finally, the 685 subset is grey. Would you change the color or leave it as is?

Thanks again for help with this.

Phonesrfun

#4
I would go with ivory fabric cords.  Straight handset (use 3 wires) and straight, of course, 5-wire deskset cord.  The Imperial did use ivory cords, but the Ivory handset cord was coiled.  OPW makes a coiled handset cord, but their price is pretty high, and while it looks ok, it is not nearly the same as the original Bell System coiled cord, unless OPW has improved it in the last three or so years since I last bought one.

The 685A subset should have a matching cover too, which would be ivory.  You could either look for a replacement cover, paint that one, or leave it under a table out of sight.

Bear in mind that all of these are suggestions only.

Since the transmitter and receiver have the T1/U1 element combination, they would sound too loud to you, the user, if you wired them to a subset designed for a 202, or 302 base using the 101A coil and the 195A capacitor.  You would only need four wires, but the sound would not sound very natural.  The newer elements have more gain than the older F1/H1A combination, and really needs to be connected to a self-compensating network such as the 425-X found in the 685A subset.

Wire it using all 5 wires, which needs an additional tie-point inside the base of the phone to take the 5th wire.  There is a diagram on the TCI library specifically for that.  

Go to http://tinyurl.com/72tjncu  for the diagram.


The wiring instructions to wire a 202 base to a 425 network that has been previously posted in this forum is when the 202 has the older elements that are usually found in the old F1 handsets.  That particular 4-wire method bypasses the self-compensation components of the 425 network.

I don't know about the paint job.  The fact that the phone contains the F handset modified for the T1/U1 combination really suggests that it was a real deal from the Bell system.  I would go with statutory bronze, but I would be eager to see what others think, both about the color and the authenticity.   I vote for real.  And like I said, even if not real, it's a great deal and will clean up really nice.
-Bill G

TelePlay

Thanks a lot Bill.

All good suggestions and the link to that wiring diagram. Will go with everything you said. And, since the 685 is a higher subset, will probably keep it authentic grey, and out of sight.

The gold/green/bronze finish is beautiful as it came out of the box. It seems plated right on the metal, which it most likely is.

I'm still curious about the lack of a red date stamp inside the base and the cast "P" number.

Will take the dial off this week and post pictures when I do.

Thanks again for the expert advice.

Phonesrfun

The P number is confusing, I admit.  I will open my Imperial and see what it has for dates and if it has that cast-in P number.  It has always been my understanding that the bodies of the Imperials and Continentals were refurbished 202's and not newly cast bodies, but I may be wrong. 
-Bill G

Phonesrfun

Mine doesn't have a P number cast inside, and no inked date numbers from manufacture date.  It does, however, have a very small H-7 cast in it on one side.

Does yours have the vinyl base cover like the Imperials used?  From the photo, it looks like it.

-Bill G

Dan/Panther

#8
Were the 202 bases stamped or cast ? my guess is this is a nice home painted phone. As far as I know the Imperials were plated metal, not painted.
D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

TelePlay

#9
Took the dial off this morning, and, well, you know how that goes. The only paint on the phone was the Polane F! handset and the liberal drops of white wall paint dropped so perfectly on the left cradle and on the #1 of the dial.

So, the dial is dated 6-55 and stamped 6D. The 6 looked like an 8 peering through the small opening before I removed the dial because another cast number interfered with the 6D stamp. Under the 6D is the cast "P" number P-389952 with a cast 8 below it. Also, the big black spot to the left of the date seems to be covering up a letter, maybe an "A."

I thought the base was leather. It could be vinyl. It has a grain to it and the small amount sticking out from under the base retaining ring is quite stiff. It was quite dirty but it cleaned up nicely using Lexol and Goo Gone followed by a final 3 coats of Lexol to keep it soft.

Took the cords off of the base, cleaned all of the white paint speckled and dropped on the base and dial, cleaned the dial, gave it a polish and put it back together. The finish is definitely plated. I found two or three very small spots around the base, slightly smaller than a pin head, where the colored finish was worn or bumped off. The top color is very thin and definitely not paint. The base dial housing area is a bright nickle finish.

The 685 subset cover needs work. The white paint came off but the tape residue on each side in the middle is hard as a rock. Will think about what to do with it while waiting for new cords to arrive.

Pictures follow.

xzzx-D1 Continental-xzzx

Dan/Panther

Goo Gone should remove the tape residue. Soak the area let set, rub off, you may have to repeat this several times.
D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

Phonesrfun

Quote from: Dan/Panther on April 15, 2012, 05:35:28 PM
Were the 202 bases stamped or cast ? my guess is this is a nice home painted phone. As far as I know the Imperials were plated metal, not painted.
D/P

Mine is definitely cast.  I don't know how else you would get the posts where the cover screw threads are inserted, and the embossed letters and numbers.  Mine has a little teeny H7 right where John's has that "P" number.

-Bill G

Doug Rose

I agree...mine is plated as well. I had to look at this over and over. The paint job is superb. You got a real nice deal on this....Doug
Kidphone

TelePlay

Thanks, Doug.

Now, I was planning on putting cloth cords on it but have seen others pictures of Imperials at other sites, including OldPhoneWorks, with a coiled handset cord.

Now I'm conflicted. For the handset, what would be best, cloth straight, vinyl straight or vinyl coiled?

And for the subset cord, straight cloth or straight vinyl? Seems cloth would take it back in time but coiled would keep it original 75th anniversary. What to do?

Any help from the experts on this site on which cords to use and why would be greatly appreciated.

Doug Rose

The best would be a coiled cloth Ivory. I'm not a big fan of the OPW handset cords. If it were mine, I would have no issue with an older Ivory curly cord on it. I think the paint is amazing. Beautiful phone....Doug
Kidphone