Is It Aqua or Is It Turquoise??

[jsowers]

It looks turquoise to me too, and it looks like an NE inside instead of a WE. But it's been a while since I've seen an NE inside. I do recall their ringers and networks having a different look. Also, the strain relief on the handset cord looks slightly tapered to me, like an NE. But the word "Operator" is there, and I thought that was omitted from NEs, so I may be all wrong about this one. Certainly a puzzler. Do any of you Canadians have anything to offer?

And Dan, thanks for the advice on not using peroxide on turquoise.

[Jester]

Jonanthan,

I'm a Texan, but I believe you are correct about this being a NE phone.  I blew up the auction photo of the back of this phone to show the name stamp behind the lift.  It's really blurry, but it looks like it says something other than "Bell System" to me.

[jsowers]

The NE 500s had those three copyright dates in that logo space and it does look like that's all in there. Thanks for blowing that shot up, Jester. Sellers have been known to use those dates, which date back to the soft plastic days, to claim the phone is circa 1959. Never mind that it has two other dates a lot more recent on it. Like they would put dates in the future on a phone.    Copyright only refers to when it was designed.

I've bought several NEs from Canada over the years, but after being stiffed on an NE 554 one time, which was only $20 including the shipping, I've been very leery of buying across the border. The shipping takes a long time too and it's more expensive.

[Jester]

I've bought several phone items from Canada recently, including this little doodad, which I'm still waiting on (but it's only been 8 days since auction's end).  http://tinyurl.com/mmz96x  I haven't been stiffed yet, but I agree that the shipping tends to be both expensive & slow.

[Slal]

Good topic.  Finding it very difficult to tell them apart. 

Phone on left:
Advertised "Aqua Turquoise Sea Foam Green Phone."  No returns.   (Sellers seem to cover all the bases for "Not as Described" or are just as confused as I am.)  Dial reads, "7C - 64 / 11 - 64."  No refurb dates on bottom.  All dates match except for HS cord restraint which is "62" so it can't be turquoise! 

Phone on right:
Advertised "Western Electric Aqua Green Phone"  Made offer figuring "dash" code on dial would clear up any mystery.  Should've known better.  Back of dial is marked "7C - 59 / 9 -59"  Any refurb date(s) on bottom look to have been blotted out with paint remover.  Plastic parts are from 1962 except HS cord which is "64"

So thinking of swapping cords (one of right is 'greener' probably due to UV damage.) Both housings had stickers on them & were treated with H2O2 gel.  Cords cleaned with dish soap.

So what say the experts?  Legit turquoise or two Aqua phones-- one simply had more UV damage? 

thx

--Bruce
_________
Addendum: Phone on left also has 'later' type 7C dial?  Doesn't need any work, but for future reference.  Later ones still have adjustment screw?

[poplar1]

It's best to look at the color inside the handset and housing to see the real color. Only part that is labeled with color code is the dial. (A few have color stamped on the baseplate, but not many.) "62" on the cord is the year.

Since all the dates match on the left phone, the 7C-64 stamp on the dial probably indicates a turquoise phone. 7C-59 on the other dial indicates that it was originally on a pink phone.

[unbeldi]

Good topic.  Finding it very difficult to tell them apart. 

In daylight in front of me, I find them easy to distinguish, having seen both previously.
In pictures it is very difficult because the ambient lighting influences what your camera records. That 50% gray patch seems added on your computer and can only be used to calibrate anything later, not the original colors. For example, I detect a color bias in that patch.
Take pictures in daylight, out of the direct sun, but without clouds and with a neutral gray in view of the camera.
Or open a handset and show the inside right next to the housing. Using the inside of the housing is useful too, but you can't show both inside and out at the same time.

A date-matched set with a 64 color code on the dial is probably the real deal. Look at the date dial impressions molded into the housing and the handset for year of manufacture.
 

[Slal]

Thanks for replies.  Compared handsets by swapping them.  'Aqua' on 'turquoise' looked too light.  'Turquoise' on 'aqua' looked discolored 'greenish' tint.  Comparing inside of caps seemed to confirm... Or was I seeing what I *wanted* to see?

Thought I'd get some second opinions here.  Thank you both for looking. 

--Bruce

Aside if permitted:
Unbeldi, thanks for info. on color bias.  How does gamma look in attached photos?  Photoshop 10.01 is fairly good with 'auto color / levels ' but with so many different viewing devices out there, algorithm is probably an average.  Also dealing with limitations of little JVC pocket camera's sensor.  Still saving up for a full frame 35MM digital SLR.  Might be a while. ; )

 

[poplar1]

Addendum: Phone on left also has 'later' type 7C dial?  Doesn't need any work, but for future reference.  Later ones still have adjustment screw?

Nov. 1964 is rather late for 7C dial. I haven't seen one made later than that.

[Slal]

Nov. 1964 is rather late for 7C dial. I haven't seen one made later than that.

That's interesting.  GTE doc has 9 series dial "introduced in 1968."¹  Maybe my timeline needs revising.

Timeline at "frillfreephones" (author cautions some info needs documentation) = 1965 ; GTE doc (as noted) has 1968.

Agreed upon date here? 

Also, my 1961 dates might need revision.  Have that year as going from full circle top to straight edge where springs are.  1961 also when WE began stamping gear frame assembly instead of using nuts.

However 'pink' dial from 1959 has its gear assembly stamped.  Pencil in 1959?

thx

--Bruce   

1.) GTE 473-820-100 Issue 3, 1973. page 2

[unbeldi]

The no. 9 dial brought the conversion of the open-center finger wheel to solid number card windows, among other features such as the removal of the mounting screws for the face plate. Our observations have this happening around 1965, perhaps late 1964.

[unbeldi]

The turquoise 500 desk sets are relatively rare because this color was not a promoted color for this telephone model and was only installed upon special customer request.  However, on the Princess sets for which it was available from inception of the model in 1959, it was always a promoted color.

Other non-promoted colors in 1965 for desk sets were yellow and light-gray, again contributing to their relative rarity.

[poplar1]

We have just added 500s to the Date Range tables, but so far, the information is sketchy. The hypothesis is that 9C dials replaced 7Ds in black 500s in late 1964, but that for color 500s, 9Cs replaced 7Cs in early 1965.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg132909#msg132909

[jsowers]

The turquoise 500 desk sets are relatively rare because this color was not a promoted color for this telephone model and was only installed upon special customer request.  However, on the Princess sets for which it was available from inception of the model in 1959, it was always a promoted color.

Other non-promoted colors in 1965 for desk sets were yellow and light-gray, again contributing to their relative rarity.

Here are scans from a Pacific Northwest Bell color chip brochure from 12-66 showing turquoise available in 500s and 554s. Special customer request isn't mentioned. Different Bells had different color choices sometimes in the 1960s. I've been looking through brochures and booklets I've scanned and this is the only mention I've found so far of turquoise in 500s. It's absent in my 1965 salesman's booklet except for Princesses. Yellow is included in the 1965 booklet, but they show a 554.
 
I'm sorry the scan is so bad. I had to reduce the size so it wouldn't take so long to post it.

[poplar1]

 
Here are scans from a Pacific Northwest Bell color chip brochure from 12-66

Notice that neither red nor ivory are listed.