Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Identification, Repair & Restoration => Telephone Tools, Workshops, Tool Identification and Other => Topic started by: bobv on January 10, 2019, 08:30:17 AM

Title: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 10, 2019, 08:30:17 AM
My  Bk Precision 1050
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Key2871 on January 10, 2019, 10:30:31 AM
Now you're cookin with gas.. that's nice I wish I could have afforded one.
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 10, 2019, 02:44:52 PM
Quote from: Key2871 on January 10, 2019, 10:30:31 AM
Now you're cookin with gas.. that's nice I wish I could have afforded one.

Hi Key2871
working great. I fix one dial with 1050. now I have 1045 & 1050. totally 8 dials I fix my self  :)
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: FABphones on January 10, 2019, 03:44:36 PM
I like the way you have the smaller unit sitting on top of the 1050.
I wish they came up for sale on this side of the water.
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Key2871 on January 10, 2019, 04:05:07 PM
Back when I wanted a product tester, those 1050's were at least a grand, even the smaller 1045 was expensive, I got what I thought was a good deal on my C, the last in the Series, but compared to what they go for today, not so much.
But mine looked like new. I've had older B's that didn't workout figured out how to fix them.
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: robert_m on January 10, 2019, 06:18:23 PM
in my experience the 1050 is a decent reliable unit, the 1045 really is useless in my view as its not properlly checking the tiiming of 10pps or 20pps, but would help with basic dial repair.
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Ktownphoneco on January 10, 2019, 06:42:41 PM
The BK Precision 1050 doesn't help calibrate the pulsing speed or the break period either.   I checked the manual which is available on the TCI Library web site.   It reads any digit between 8 pps and 20 pps, and it doesn't read the break period.      Search TCI Library, select Search, select Google search and type in BK1050., hit search, and go to top right of resulting page and click on "view".

Jeff Lamb
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Key2871 on January 10, 2019, 07:06:33 PM
Quote from: robert_m on January 10, 2019, 06:18:23 PM
in my experience the 1050 is a decent reliable unit, the 1045 really is useless in my view as its not properlly checking the tiiming of 10pps or 20pps, but would help with basic dial repair.

Yea well for working on phones just to trouble shoot connection issues and repairing ringers the 1045 is quite useful.
Like Jeff said the 1050 doesn't calibrate dials, it just helps you find problems.
I wouldn't say the 1045 is useless, it is very useful for what I use it for. I've had phones I couldn't find the problem, and with the unit I have it worked very well finding the problem.
Other wise I was trying up my land-line using the power and dial tone to figure out a connection issue.
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: robert_m on January 10, 2019, 08:07:50 PM
Agree, helping trouble shoot problem, yes, calibratating a dial both are useless, was my point.
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: TelePlay on January 10, 2019, 09:23:02 PM
     Regular Member Post (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=20151.msg206412#msg206412)

Testing dials for proper operation has been well documented on the forum. The final final test of what works best, what definitively shows the operation of a dial with respect to dial speed and break/make ratios was posted in August of 2018. In this test, this comparison, the pulse data from a dial was sent by way of a .wav sound file to me for analysis using the Audacity technique. The same dial, the same pulse data was tested directly by ktownphoneco on a Sage 930 analyzer, a piece of test equipment (with the right options installed) will show accurate dial speed and break/make ratios and with that data, it can be decided if a dial must be restored or is in spec as is.

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17011.msg214159#msg214159

This reply (the above link) showed that Audacity and the Sage produced the same dial test results using 6 sets of data, the number "0" was dialed 6 times. The only difference is that Audacity provides very accurate and reproducible data to 2 points past the decimal place and the Sage 930 round those 2 points off the a whole number. This is the Audacity wave file for one full operation of the dial under test.

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17011.0;attach=191702;image)


There is no better way to "look" at what a dial is doing while pulsing that provided by using Audacity. Now, the price one pays for the Audacity precision is the time it takes to input the data from a sound file into a spread sheet, and in this case 6 times. A Sage 930 will provide the same results in a few seconds rather than 10 to 15 minutes but the Audacity shows so much more information including one digit being off due to a clump of crud in one of the gear teeth - a reproducible blimp in speed immediately eliminated by finding the dirt in the tooth and removing it with a toothpick. The above wav file is quite uniform showing there is not single chunk of crud in one gear tooth, something that can only be seen in a pulse wave form. And, then, once a dial is reconditioned, comparison of the before and after Audacity sound files shows exactly how well the reconditioning improved the dial and if the dial needs more work.

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17011.0;attach=191704;image)

In this case, only the "before" Audacity wave file was sent for a test comparison against the Sage 930. The "after" reconditioning information was not sent.

There is no way that a BK 1050 can produce anything close to the data generated with a Sage 930 or Audacity to determine the quality of a specific dial. With Audacity, the PPS times for each digit can be graphed to show the dial slowing down as it moves from "0" to "1" due to the fact that the mainspring is winding down. The governor does a great job keeping the PPS constant but when graphing the digits, the PPS always slows down at the dial unwinds regardless of the condition of the dial (a dial doing 8 PPS shows the same type of loss of energy in the spring as a dial doing 11 PPS).

In this case, with this dial over 6 full dialings, the graph of the spring related slow down is consistent with each full operation of the dial.

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17011.0;attach=191706;image)

Without the specific PPS and break/make information, information not available using a BK 1050, how can one determine if a dial is working in spec or needs to be reconditioned? And, more importantly, what was the affect of the reconditioning, how was the dial performing after it was reconditioned? That is also not available using a BK 1050.

I've tested many dials using Audacity and have always been able to say that a dial I "fixed" was really fixed, it met spec to 2 places after the decimal point be it speed (PPS right about 10) or the Break/Make ratio (right about 60%/40%). This can not be said of any dial tested with a BK 1050 which from what others have said seems to do nothing more than provide a pass/fail with the pass within a wide range of speeds and break/make ratios.

Once again I find myself reinventing the wheel because someone did not research the forum and find this information. The first link above will take you to a topic of 4 pages in length where this is discussed at length ending with the comparison of a Sage 930 and Audacity. Ignorance (failure to do the work of fully learning about dial reconditioning) is bliss, and easy to do when no heavy lifting is applied preparing for and undertaking a forum quality reconditioning of a dial, but what is really important is the final operating specs of the dial being reconditioned and how it was reconditioned so that it remains in spec for the next few decades.

There are no short cuts in dial reconditioning. It's either done completely and correctly or it's not much better than as removed from a phone housing. And, using a BK-1050 pass/fail test instrument to determine dial specs or being in spec is just folly.

It's quite a disappoint to realize that all of the good work posted by so many members over 10 years is lost to the moment a video with no dialog showing a dial being spun and "testing" or "repairing" a dial is posted and declared "good" by those who do not remember the time consuming work of others to help members best test and restore their phones.
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: robert_m on January 10, 2019, 10:06:31 PM
Thanks teleplay - I could not agree more and assume you understood that was my point.  You went into much more detail, but net is same both peices of equiptment a junk if your tring to properlly calibrate a dail to 10 or 20 pps, period!
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: TelePlay on January 11, 2019, 01:03:31 AM
     Regular Member Post (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=20151.msg206412#msg206412)

Quote from: robert_m on January 10, 2019, 10:06:31 PM
Thanks teleplay - I could not agree more and assume you understood that was my point.  You went into much more detail, but net is same both peices of equiptment a junk if your tring to properlly calibrate a dail to 10 or 20 pps, period!

No problem.

Yes, I went into more detail but keep in mind that you were speaking to the BK instrumentation and I was speaking to the point that a lot of stuff, including dial cleaning, repair and adjustment has been asked and answered in deep, quality detail on the forum by more than a few members. twocvbloke and dsk introduced Audacity to the forum for dial speed adjustment in 2012 and having a background in using Audacity to create professional quality theatrical sound affects for live stage plays, I started to use Audacity as well for dial analysis. The 3 of us got the technique down over time to what I posted above. Along the way, I created the Excel spreadsheet (which is available to anyone who wants it just for the asking in a PM) which is probably the 7th or 8th generation of it by me with each adding ways to get more dial performance information out of a single wave form. The last spreadsheet extracts everything anyone would want to know about a dials performance. And it's been on the forum for over 6 months readily available for anyone interested in learning how to analyze a dial's performance.

I realize there is a lot of stuff on the forum that is invaluable but difficult to find for newer members. The best thing for a new member to do is simply ask the forum in topic how to analyze a dial for speed and break/make ratios. Those of us who are interested in or have actually use a Sage 930 or Audacity can easily find the existing topic link and provide it in a reply with a short description of how it is done. To create a new topic with the heading of "dial repair" or "My BK" with absolutely no content to either explain in detail the purpose of the post or to provide information that would help for anyone interested in working on dials is a waste of time.

A lot of members have invested a lot of time, money and creativity in posting "how to" topics to both document ground breaking ways they have discovered to do a lot of things to a lot of different types of telephonic equipment and systems. I don't think there is anything that would be considered new but I know there is always room for improvement in restoration techniques, and some members do the heavy lifting to post advances in restoration techniques for posterity and for anyone who is interested in the area to read about and try the advancement, if they wanted or have a need to do so.

In this case, I provided just a small part of dial restoration or reconditioning by discussing once again how to "read" a dial before and after reconditioning. Other steps such as disassembly and cleaning are also on the forum available by searching or simply asking. If anything, this topic has educated many to the fact that a BK 1050 is useless for accurate analysis of a dial and using one to "fix" a dial, to show that it was "fixed" is as I said, folly. The ways to obtain dial performance information has been asked and answered in detail many times over and nothing found in the video attached to the first post comes anywhere close, not even in the same ballpark, city, state or country to helping someone analyze and adjust or "fix" a dial.

The only stupid question is one not asked. To blunder forward with a video like that and then say dials are being "fixed" using the BK 1050 is misleading to those new to the hobby and that does a great disservice to the members wanting to learn and the forum itself which is recognized world wide as an education platform for the telephone hobbyist. It is so easy for a new member, or a long term member, to simply ask a question on how to do something or where to find it and I know there are at least one to two dozen members who would quickly reply with good answers and links to help the member get started on resolving their issue. Posting a meaningless topic does not help anyone, in this case is misleading and degrades the quality of the forum. So much time and energy has been invested in so many members to create and keep this forum as the Number 1 go to source for telephone help and just one post like this goes against all the forum stands for, the spirit of the forum.

I don't know much about a lot of things. We all have our specialty areas. I'm good at analyzing dials, reconditioning them, well, for me I'm still learning from others. I can hold my own at chemically sanding plastic housings or polishing pot metal to a mirror finish. Beyond that, I have limited to no personal knowledge. I could run off a list of member handles and their areas of interest, their specialties, right now off the top of my head. Some over lap and some are unique to their area, the only member on the forum with in depth knowledge of that area. I think I can speak for all of them when I say posting a topic with nothing more than a link to a website and less than 10 words is an insult to the integrity of the forum and its serious hobbyists. I'm seeing topics like this as doing nothing more than getting the click count up at the "other" web site to support that site's requested advertising and user fees. If I'm wrong, reply saying so or send me PM. It just might be that those of us who have invested a lot to learn the hobby well, or at least parts of it, find this topic counter to all this forum has tried to be, to become over the past 10 years.

I guess it just might be that the members who invested heavily to help contribute, to help build this forum into the educational database and platform it has become find this topic's first post and second reply as pretentious and an affront to that investment.
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 11, 2019, 09:02:43 AM
I enjoying the BK 1045-1050. I am testing dials once they started working it is great. so far it has been fantastic. I am not going to  use  for NASA  technology.  8)
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 11, 2019, 09:46:31 AM
I am going to play the dials with my Sage 930  :)
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Ktownphoneco on January 11, 2019, 09:49:57 AM
Can you post a picture of your Sage 930 so we can see how you connect it ?

Jeff
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 11, 2019, 10:31:15 AM
Quote from: Ktownphoneco on January 11, 2019, 09:49:57 AM
Can you post a picture of your Sage 930 so we can see how you connect it ?

Jeff

first time with Sage 930. when I done successfully,  I post the video. my opinion dial repair is a very simple work. this is not a scientific work :)

I  follow this you tube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ZB50WDdsw

======================

EDIT: The above video was created and posted by Ed Morris
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 11, 2019, 10:38:45 AM
If you have a BK 1045 or 1050 dial repair, it is very simple. Just clean the dial with Ultrasonic and dry it. Lubricate. check the dial numbers with
BK one by one. Adjust the governor, if you need. (check the photo Red Mark) You are done. Dial works just great. this is basic. Next step you can go with Sage 930
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Ktownphoneco on January 11, 2019, 10:55:37 AM
Dial repair is very simple ?    Really ?   This is what dial repair looks like (see attached pdf).    It has also been calibrated. 

Jeff
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Doug Rose on January 11, 2019, 11:08:15 AM
Dial repair is so simple, even I can do it!

$6 to Steve Hilsz


Simple!
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Ktownphoneco on January 11, 2019, 11:31:43 AM
Quote from: Doug Rose on January 11, 2019, 11:08:15 AM
Dial repair is so simple, even I can do it!

$6 to Steve Hilsz


Simple!

Or, $6.00 Canadian to me here in Canada.

Jeff
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Doug Rose on January 11, 2019, 11:34:22 AM
Good to know Jeff.....Doug
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 11, 2019, 03:37:45 PM
Quote from: Ktownphoneco on January 11, 2019, 10:55:37 AM
Dial repair is very simple ?    Really ?   This is what dial repair looks like (see attached pdf).    It has also been calibrated. 

Jeff

:) Hi Jeff,
who made this dials? human made this dials........so we are human  8)

thanks
VB
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 11, 2019, 03:39:12 PM
Quote from: Ktownphoneco on January 11, 2019, 11:31:43 AM
Or, $6.00 Canadian to me here in Canada.

Jeff

Ah!!!! I save $6X9= $54 + shipping  :)
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 11, 2019, 03:49:07 PM
This is my SAGE 930A. I have all telecommunication test equipment's  :D. but I don't want to use all of them. simple easy method helpful for everyone.
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Ktownphoneco on January 11, 2019, 04:09:15 PM
Yes, but your BK 1050 and BK 1045 are basically useless for calibrating a dial or repairing a dial for that matter.     The only one in your collection so far, that will, is the Sage 930-A.     It will measure and tell you what speed your dials are spinning at, and what the break period is.   
Why don't you hook up a dial to your Sage 930-A, and take a video of you spinning a dial in front of the screen on your Sage 930-A so we can see the pulses per second it's producing, and what the break percentage is.   By the way, I can't make heads or tails of your previous 2 posts that you directed at me.

Jeff
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 11, 2019, 04:22:10 PM
my opinion bk is very helpful. most of the dials need cleaning and minor adjustment. you don't have a sage 930? some other testers(prototype) are better than Sage 930A. but need more space.
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 11, 2019, 04:30:16 PM
You want to see option 1 and 13??
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Ktownphoneco on January 11, 2019, 04:38:31 PM
The facts are beyond the point of an opinion.    You can't calibrate a rotary pulse dial or a T/T dial with either a BK 1045 or a BK 1050. Period.     Yes, I have a Sage 930A, which is what I use to calibrate dials.    Yes, I suspect there are other instruments on the market similar to the Sage 930A, but the BK 1045 and BK 1050 aren't one of them.   No matter how you'd like to dance around it, that's the bottom line.   You keep posting these useless video's of you dialing numbers on the Bk 1045 and BK 1050, which tells people "nothing".     Your posts may mislead someone who, like yourself , probably don't know how to repair or calibrate a dial, and they might end up searching eBay and spending their hard earned money, buying something they thing will work according to your posts, and find out when the instrument arrives, that it can't be used to calibrate a telephone dial, which is why they bought it based on "your" posts.    Stop acting like an expert on dial servicing.   You know nothing about it.

Mr. Moderator - I'm done here.

Jeff Lamb
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 11, 2019, 06:29:05 PM
Basic technology to make the dial work, I am using 1045A and 1050 and they will do the job.  The usual cleaning, drying, lubrication and checking numbers are needed. May be, small adjustments in the governor or so are also needed. 
I am posting what I am using and how it is working for me.  These 1045A or 1050 are affordable, if anyone wants to try out and works with dials. 
SAGE 930 is more advanced and I am not much familiar yet with the 930.  I can try that one and post some video later.

Anyone who have used SAGE 930, please post some videos.  We like to see those videos how they work and learn from it.
I found and posted a youtube video in the thread before. Looking forward to the videos of 930!

thanks.
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Doug Rose on January 11, 2019, 06:45:45 PM
Jeff is a well respected collector and member of the Forum. I don't think his posts should be so easily dismissed.

I have seen selling WORKING Telephones for almost 40 years. Only equipment I have neeed was two POTS lines from the local telephone company. Later FIOS or Comcast with a Panasonic 616. Only a few dials reapaired by Steve H...Doug
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 11, 2019, 06:49:16 PM
A1 Telephone Demo with 1045

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM-_xvT2gBA

======================

EDIT: The above video was created and posted by Dennis McDonald at A1-Telephone.com, 618-235-6959
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 11, 2019, 06:58:15 PM
Another Example A1 Telephone with BK1045

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omV-jZsx-6U

======================

EDIT: The above video was created and posted by Dennis McDonald at A1-Telephone.com, 618-235-6959
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Key2871 on January 11, 2019, 07:10:01 PM
I agree with Doug. I have said I use mine for testing purposes only, some times I use it to help adjust a stubborn ringer. But as a diagnostic tool no. Because it wasn't designed for that. Checking basic operation of a telephone set, transmit and receive, also cords handset and base of modular design.
I'll step off the telephone stool now.

Ken
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: FABphones on January 11, 2019, 07:12:05 PM
Thanks teleplay John and ktown Jeff for the info you have posted on this thread.
Info there I didn't know but definitely needed to.
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 12, 2019, 12:00:45 AM
Quote from: bobv on January 11, 2019, 06:49:16 PM
A1 Telephone Demo with 1045

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM-_xvT2gBA

======================

EDIT: The above video was created and posted by Dennis McDonald at A1-Telephone.com, 618-235-6959


yes we know that. his title is  there. he using BK 1045 and 1050 some other testers
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 12, 2019, 12:11:39 AM
Quote from: Ktownphoneco on January 11, 2019, 04:38:31 PM
The facts are beyond the point of an opinion.    You can't calibrate a rotary pulse dial or a T/T dial with either a BK 1045 or a BK 1050. Period.     Yes, I have a Sage 930A, which is what I use to calibrate dials.    Yes, I suspect there are other instruments on the market similar to the Sage 930A, but the BK 1045 and BK 1050 aren't one of them.   No matter how you'd like to dance around it, that's the bottom line.   You keep posting these useless video's of you dialing numbers on the Bk 1045 and BK 1050, which tells people "nothing".     Your posts may mislead someone who, like yourself , probably don't know how to repair or calibrate a dial, and they might end up searching eBay and spending their hard earned money, buying something they thing will work according to your posts, and find out when the instrument arrives, that it can't be used to calibrate a telephone dial, which is why they bought it based on "your" posts.    Stop acting like an expert on dial servicing.   You know nothing about it.

Mr. Moderator - I'm done here.

Jeff Lamb

this pictures from youtube video.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ZB50WDdsw

check the time frame near 9:17/14:47
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: tubaman on January 12, 2019, 08:18:28 AM
I've got this that my brother spotted at a car boot sale some years ago (I think it cost £25).
It simulates two lines, one long and one short, and you can dial between them (pulse or tone).  You can manually ring the phones and also test things like line reversal and earth disconnection. 
It was designed to bench test payphones so can also issue meter pulses etc, but I have never needed those bits.
It's getting pretty old now - over 20 years (I can tell that because the makers phone number is missing the digit '1' after the initial zero - that change happened in the UK in 1995).
It gets a lot of use and I would be lost without it.
:)
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Key2871 on January 12, 2019, 10:24:34 AM
OK, I fail to see the relevance to the YouTube videos.
Dennis never actually shows how the "repair " was done, what he found wrong with the dial. The first one says the dial was locked up, OK what did he find wrong that caused the dial to have been locked up? Notice how he never shows what was actually done, or does he tell what was found wrong to cause the trouble. Yes he used one of many product testers to demonstrate that the dial actually works.
However it does not talk about calibration of the dials, which was already covered by Jeff and John, to tell you that a product tester can not calibrate dials, nor can they be used to do that.
So I fail to see where those videos make your point.
I've always had a problem with A1 and the videos they make about telephone repair. Because no where does he explaine how he came to his conclusion of what was wrong, and how he actually repaired the phone. As most of us know that it isn't hard to repair a telephone, the hardest parts I can see is discovering what is actually wrong, that usually entails replacing a part that failed. Common things are transmitter parts or receiver parts. A1 has his display of test equipment all neatly in view of the camera, to impress those who don't understand how easy it is to fix most common problems with a telephone.
Now it's been a long time since I've had the chance to work on and older dial such as a #4 or a #5 but I also came across a couple that were jammed up, and it was a simple fix to get the dial working again. Notice I didn't say calibrated, because I did not know or have equipment to do this. Did I dial out with my tester? Yes, as I also did on my POTs line to make sure the dial was actually operating the switch as it should. Again leaving out the word calibrate. Because I also had a couple dials that didn't make the grade. Mostly newer dials, and again I didn't know what was needed to repair those. So they did not get repaired.
I'll get off the telephone stool now..

Ken
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: TelePlay on January 12, 2019, 03:16:30 PM
     GLOBAL MODERATOR POST (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=20151.msg206412#msg206412)

Quote from: bobv on January 12, 2019, 12:11:39 AM
this pictures from youtube video.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ZB50WDdsw

check the time frame near 9:17/14:47

This is incoherent.

What are you trying to say, what do you mean?

Please explain in detail, restate your post with meaningful content, or it will be deleted.
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: TelePlay on January 12, 2019, 06:04:20 PM
     Regular Member Post (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=20151.msg206412#msg206412)

Appears that this "FREE" software, NummernschalterPrüfer (http://www.ultrauploads.net/file/a7p53Ixq), produces results like those obtained from a Sage 930a or using Audacity. It certainly produces dial data absolutely necessary to calibrate a dial to manufacturer's spec, something a BK 1050/1045 can not and will never be able do to provide - dial speed (PPS) and break/make ratio (60/40 WE spec), information that has to be known before attempting to adjust a dial, if adjustment is needed.

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=21454.msg221328#msg221328

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=21454.0;attach=199183;image)


Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 12, 2019, 07:47:03 PM
Quote from: TelePlay on January 12, 2019, 03:16:30 PM
     GLOBAL MODERATOR POST (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=20151.msg206412#msg206412)

This is incoherent.

What are you trying to say, what do you mean?

Please explain in detail, restate your post with meaningful content, or it will be deleted.


Hi,

There were two SAGE images posted in the forum/thread.  They were taken from a youtube video as screen shots and posted here.  There was another image (1045 with a phone) posted in the message.  This image and SAGE images are not connected or related. 

The two SAGE images were taken as screen shots from the youtube video. I posted the timeframe of the video where we can view these screenshots. when you play the video, you can see these screen shots in that time.

hope this clarifies. 
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 12, 2019, 07:50:18 PM
Quote from: TelePlay on January 12, 2019, 06:04:20 PM
     Regular Member Post (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=20151.msg206412#msg206412)

Appears that this "FREE" software, NummernschalterPrüfer (http://www.ultrauploads.net/file/a7p53Ixq), produces results like those obtained from a Sage 930a or using Audacity. It certainly produces dial data absolutely necessary to calibrate a dial to manufacturer's spec, something a BK 1050/1045 can not and will never be able do to provide - dial speed (PPS) and break/make ratio (60/40 WE spec), information that has to be known before attempting to adjust a dial, if adjustment is needed.

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=21454.msg221328#msg221328

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=21454.0;attach=199183;image)



hi
did you try this software.  I tried it and not successful.  is this a english version? i got different language.   
if you are successful, could you give some information?
thanks,
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: compubit on January 12, 2019, 10:00:54 PM
If I recall correctly, the software is in German. The screenshots are provided as a translation of the German on-screen display.

Dennis at A-1 has stated that the videos he provides are more for the customer to relay information of the "before" and "after", and he does not intend for them to be a "how to"or the details in his repair service.  Some of us look at the videos as being of no value; some of us look at the videos as something with insight to the phones we may not have access to (to see the insides, especially some of the specialty Design Line phones, at least for me).

As for tools and equipment, there are a number devices out there to assist, and (in my humble opinion), I don't think there is one tool that can resolve all problems (granted, I don't have any of these devices).

My solution for dials would be to leave it to the pros, and spend the $6 to send to any of the folks who deal with them. I can get a lot of dials done (more than I have) for the cost of many of these machines.

That being said, I believe that we agree to disagree about the specific uses/benefits of these devices.

Let's focus on collecting, and finding each of our own "purple unicorn", and share them with the group!

Jim
(I've said my peace!)
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: TelePlay on January 12, 2019, 10:09:52 PM
     GLOBAL MODERATOR POST (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=20151.msg206412#msg206412)

     and

     Regular Member Post (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=20151.msg206412#msg206412)


Quote from: bobv on January 12, 2019, 07:47:03 PM
There were two SAGE images posted in the forum/thread.  They were taken from a youtube video as screen shots and posted here.  There was another image (1045 with a phone) posted in the message.  This image and SAGE images are not connected or related. 

The two SAGE images were taken as screen shots from the youtube video. I posted the timeframe of the video where we can view these screenshots. when you play the video, you can see these screen shots in that time.

As suspected, you totally missed the point of that reply and the attached images.

The first image, be it a 1045 or a 1050, was attached to support the comment in the text "dialing numbers on the Bk 1045 and BK 1050" that the only information obtained from either of these two instruments is the number dialed and in the image that was "2."

In the second and third images, annotated with a yellow circle, were attached to support the comment in the text "a Sage 930A, which is what I use to calibrate dials" in that the information within the 2nd and 3rd images show dial's Pulse per Second (9.9 PPS) and Break/Make ratio (64% to 36%), two pieces of data absolutely essential to checking a dial, determining if it must be adjusted and then to check the dial after adjustment to see if it the adjustment brought it into spec or if it is not and requires more adjustment.

Those 3 images had nothing to do with the links to videos being posted and none of the replies posted contained any explanation of why or for what reason the videos (created by someone other than you and posted by you without attribution) were introduced to the topic. Posting a thousands video links would not change the fact that a BK 1045/1050 (or any instrument at that level) will be able to ever help anyone check and adjust a dial, if needed, to be within or within the acceptable range of performance specifications set by the manufacturer, 10 PPS and 60/40%.

A pass/fail system, be it a POTS line, a Panasonic 616/308, a Teltone Simulator, a Radio Shack Telephone Tester or a BK 1045/1050, will never produce a dial's performance data and can never be used to adjust the dial to be within manufacturer's specs and no matter how many videos of those simple pass/fail system being used to show a dial works or does not, none of them can be used to calibrate a dial.

And, yes, this is rocket science since the telephone was state of the art device when produced (WE and its Bell Labs in Murray Hill NJ was the preeminent research and development for state of the art technology including mechanical, chemical and electrical engineering for over a hundred years, they have thousands of patents) from the late 1800s to the late 1970s and duplicating the technology and its practices used in the period of the phone is completely essential to the proper and correct restoration of a dial, to check it and if necessary, to adjust it to be within manufacture specs, not just "work" after "fixing" it. Doing anything less than correct calibration results in a dial with questionable performance and if put into a telephone, one I would not want to buy on eBay if I did not know how to fix a bad dial after receiving the phone.

I certainly "hope this clarifies" your erroneous conclusions and short cut pursuits in telephone dial calibration. Pass/fail checks, as you desire to employ, are not, they can not in any way help properly calibrate a dial.
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: bobv on January 13, 2019, 12:14:51 PM
In my previous post, I requested if anyone has tested a dial with SAGE 930A, they can post a video.
Also, if anyone tested the same dial with 1045A and 1050, a video can be posted.  The videos of both SAGE 930A and BK 1045A/1050 can be compared.  would you like to do that?  Images would not tell the testing or how it is done or any details like video:) (photoshop can create any type of images too :)

I keep saying BK 1045A/1050 are simple methods to use.  SAGE 930A has sophisticated testing results.  I can't say any clearer than this.
I am using all three equipment and some prototypes. I pick and choose what I feel like to test the dial with.  This is my method and make the dial working.  There are times I don't calibrate the dial at all.  all that is needed is cleaning.  that's my experience having to deal with many dials (about 400 dials).  If I have to get those fixed to original spec by paying $6 per dial plus packaging/shipping/etc., it is costly and I would not learn much about the dials.  My way is hands-on and try different equipment. I am sharing my experience and some video in this forum.  I also shared some reference that others have done.  If anyone likes to use these equipment, it is their choice.




   
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Jim Stettler on January 13, 2019, 12:43:22 PM
With a 1045/1050 you may be able to adjust a dial to show correct digits.
That is not calibration, that is "tweaking" a dial. Tweaking a dial may work to get it to dial out on a 616.
Again, this is not calibrating a dial, It is tweaking it.
You should also clean and lube a dial per BSP spec before trying to adjust it. Many times that is all that is needed.



Calibration is a precise term. You can not calibrate a dial with a 1045/1050.


Stan S. did offer a TT Calibration unit on Ebay. With it you could precisely tune a old TT dial with the tuning pots.
If the TT is precisely tuned it could be considered calibrated.

As a guess, you may be able to tune a TT dial with a 1050 and oscilloscope. It seems to me that it would be possible.

JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: HarrySmith on January 13, 2019, 01:15:17 PM
Have we beaten this horse enough?

Obviously the points have been made. A dial can only be precisely calibrated with specialized equipment. It may be tested and even made to work in any number of ways but that is not calibratiing it. Big difference, miniscule wording differences.
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Jim Stettler on January 13, 2019, 01:23:31 PM
Quote from: HarrySmith on January 13, 2019, 01:15:17 PM
Have we beaten this horse enough?

Obviously the points have been made. A dial can only be precisely calibrated with specialized equipment. It may be tested and even made to work in any number of ways but that is not calibratiing it. Big difference, miniscule wording differences.
I agree
>MODIFIED<
My last point was>Early tt with adjustable pots<
TT may be able to be calibrated with a 1050 and scope. It is reasonable to consider.

regarding wording. It is key. Should and shall mean totally different things  in code speak.
As an educational forum we need to clarify these things.
It is not being picky, it is being precise.
Thank-you  for the use of your phone stool Ken,
Jim S.

Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: Key2871 on January 13, 2019, 02:19:34 PM
Very well put Harry, lol I couldn't have said it better myself..
Newer TT dials are chip run so calibration is not even a consideration. Just for those newbs that may not know...

Ken
Title: Re: My Bk Precision 1050
Post by: TelePlay on January 13, 2019, 03:45:31 PM
Quote from: bobv on January 13, 2019, 12:14:51 PM
In my previous post, I requested if anyone has tested a dial with SAGE 930A, they can post a video.
Also, if anyone tested the same dial with 1045A and 1050, a video can be posted.  The videos of both SAGE 930A and BK 1045A/1050 can be compared.  would you like to do that?  Images would not tell the testing or how it is done or any details like video:) (photoshop can create any type of images too :)

I keep saying BK 1045A/1050 are simple methods to use.  SAGE 930A has sophisticated testing results.  I can't say any clearer than this.
I am using all three equipment and some prototypes. I pick and choose what I feel like to test the dial with.  This is my method and make the dial working.  There are times I don't calibrate the dial at all.  all that is needed is cleaning.  that's my experience having to deal with many dials (about 400 dials).  If I have to get those fixed to original spec by paying $6 per dial plus packaging/shipping/etc., it is costly and I would not learn much about the dials.  My way is hands-on and try different equipment. I am sharing my experience and some video in this forum.  I also shared some reference that others have done.  If anyone likes to use these equipment, it is their choice.



Yes, Harry, this horse is dead. Has been for several days. Just waiting for confirmation, which I now have, before writing this final reply, the last word.

The above quoted reply demonstrates the lack of willingness to learn correct procedures and techniques along with the a strong desire for to continue to take short cuts to "fix" a dial that will harm the dial. Citric acid in an ultrasonic aqueous bath getting into the mainspring shaft raceway during cleaning will certainly "fix" a dial over a few months time, and, yes, that was a sarcastic comment. You can pick and chose anything including a 10 pound sledge hammer to fix a dial but in reality, there is a correct way to calibrate a dial and constantly adhering to the harmful and/or incorrect method of dial repair demonstrates nothing more than obstinateness.

The only thing keeping this topic from being deleted in its entirety are several posts within it which discuss and explain the proper instruments needed to correctly calibrate a dial to get it into manufacture's specifications.

A video without annotation, without an audio track or without a step by step text within the post is worthless, meaningless and a waste of time to both post it and for a member to read it.

Here's an equivalent scneario the this topic: I could post an F1 video from 5 years ago showing Michael Schumacher in a Ferrari or Sebastian Vettel in a Renault doing 300+ mph on the back stretch of the Italian Grand Prix without supporting explanation, context, audio track or annotation but that would not prove I even have a drivers license much less being able to drive one of those cars.

This forum was not created for videos and the body of work posted on this forum is not video based

As for dial calibration, "fixing" a dial as you say, it was first discussed CORRECTLY on the forum in October of 2010 and way back then, Dennis Hallworth (dencins) got the "rocket science" correct and posted a wave form of a dial pulsing (PPS and B/M ratio) which is identical to that one can easily obtain from using Audacity with a 1/8" plug, a short 2 or 3 conductor cable and two alligator clip leads.

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=226.msg46563#msg46563

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=226.0;attach=87619;image)

This reinventing the wheel and coming up with a rectangle on your axle is worthless except for the many attempts other member have made to try to help you understand the CORRECT way a dial is calibrated and the importance of correct calibration.

You might ask, what's wrong with an unsupported video? Or what's really better than a video? Well, anything with detail. Check out this work done by Jorge Amerly and Dennis Markham (all of which are cleaning a dial, calibration was not part of these instructional posts) and easily found by using the forum search function:

North Electric Model 541 Dial Overhaul Procedure (https://get.google.com/albumarchive/108755568773115900755/album/AF1QipPbugsSZSHuvPcyPAl8d4pVxLKaoxzLYyQ9maUb)

Automatic Electric Dial Overhaul (https://get.google.com/albumarchive/108755568773115900755/album/AF1QipO-1IKnr91Xrgx3x8yfTd-D1o8dwpkyM9GxkM6n)

7D Dial Cleaning & Lubrication (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=285.msg2467#msg2467)

All of these examples are highly education and worthy of being posted on the forum to help others who may be interested in learning the right way to clean a dial. While the above posts are just an example of how a detailed post should be done to help and educate members, they do not get into calibration which was covered in several replies in this topic, the only reason this topic will not be deleted in its entirety.

With that said, this topic will now be locked and preserved in place as a "how not to fix" a dial. Being locked, no further posts will be allowed and any new topics that begin and progress in the way this topic did (topics based on technical ignorance, posting incorrect help, failure to demonstrate a desire to learn and posting nothing more than an external link to another person's without attribution) will be summarily deleted without explanation.


PS:  And $6 being too much to spend to have a dial restored and calibrated correctly? Thanks for the laugh. Proves you know nothing about proper dial reconditioning and calibration, the cost of personal time to do it right and quality of work available for just $6.


TOPIC LOCKED: 01/13/2019