A cool old piece of telco equipment-C.L. Guinand & Locle stop watch with a case inscribed N.E.T. & T. Co. SOUTH DIV. TRAFFIC. Appears to date from the early 1900s.
I see a lot of Pocket watches but it is the first time I see one like this..is it yours sargeguy?
It is now. This was listed as a police pocket watch, probably due to the traffic reference. I saw it originally at $129, then $99, then finally $79.99. I am a sucker for NET&T marked equipment. These watches are relatively inexpensive so it should be easy to find a parts watch to replace the crystal and the faceplate.
Quote from: Sargeguy on March 12, 2014, 08:36:41 PM
It is now. This was listed as a police pocket watch, probably due to the traffic reference. I saw it originally at $129, then $99, then finally $79.99. I am a sucker for NET&T marked equipment. These watches are relatively inexpensive so it should be easy to find a parts watch to replace the crystal and the faceplate.
Nice stop Watch.. I collected some Pocket watches over the years but they are sold now. i've never had a stopwatch. probably one day ;)
The phone arrived today and it works fairly well considering. After 15 minutes of running it is within a second of my digital timer. This type of 100 second stop watch is known as an "industrial stop watch". I wonder what it was used for?
possibly to time toll calls instead of a Calcaugraph
Quote from: Sargeguy on March 17, 2014, 05:48:21 PM
The phone arrived today and it works fairly well considering. After 15 minutes of running it is within a second of my digital timer. This type of 100 second stop watch is known as an "industrial stop watch". I wonder what it was used for?
you are so used to getting phones in the mail that you called it a phone!
Quote from: xhausted110 on March 17, 2014, 08:27:14 PM
Quote from: Sargeguy on March 17, 2014, 05:48:21 PM
The phone arrived today and it works fairly well considering. After 15 minutes of running it is within a second of my digital timer. This type of 100 second stop watch is known as an "industrial stop watch". I wonder what it was used for?
you are so used to getting phones in the mail that you called it a phone!
I saw that, but I wasn't going to rub it in... Glad you did! :)
Dave
That's what happens when you have a 5-year old crawling on your lap demanding to watch the second half of "Free Birds".
Quote
possibly to time toll calls instead of a Calcaugraph
I thought about whether they were used to time calls but I thought they would use a calcugraph or something simpler to operate. They would have needed a lot of watches. Then I noticed that it was engraved "119" on the side. I also noticed several marks scratched into the inside of the lid. They were all the letter A followed by 3 numbers. There is also a mark "W.E. 48" Maybe this watch pre-dates the calcugraph?
Worthless for timing toll calls. Possibly used for timing dialtone delay for traffic studies, determine dial speed, call answering, etc.
I think this watch is pre-WWI based on the markings, which seem older than some WWI era examples. This would mean it predates the use of dials by NET&T. I am trying to get a date based upon the serial # which should narrow it down. I agree that it would be awkward to use one of these for tracking toll calls, but why would it be useless?
Well, if it does predate New England T&T's use of dials, then it would have been "worthless" for "timing dial tone delay" or "determining dial speed."
I mean useless for timing toll calls. It seems to me you could time at least one call.
Worthless as in it would be far too cumbersome to have a half-dozen or more at each operator's position to time toll calls.
However it could have been used for other traffic studies and of course it SHOULD go without saying that it would not have been used for measuring dialtone delay if its use predates automatic equipment.
Quote from: G-Man on March 18, 2014, 11:09:50 PM
Worthless as in it would be far too cumbersome to have a half-dozen or more at each operator’s position to time toll calls.
However it could have been used for other traffic studies and of course it SHOULD go without saying that it would not have been used for measuring dialtone delay if its use predates automatic equipment.
Also, I should have added that it IS a nice collectable and it would be nice to find out precisely what its intended use was.
The following 1913 article regards supply issues within Western Electric and while it does not address what your stopwatch was used for it does show that it was not commonly used.
Requisition calls for one stop watch The editor takes a chance and forwards the watch commonly used in part of the territory only to find that a split second Guinand watch is necessary and the one furnished must be returned. These little errors of omission contribute to the delays which we are inclined to charge to the other fellow and by careful and complete description on all requisitions trouble delay and correspondence can be saved. When edited the order tickets are written also the various shipping tickets and the requisition go to tile never again to be disturbed unless some question comes up. The current routines for handling the receipts and bills and credits whether from Western Electric or outside supplier are familiar to all and if followed carefully and promptly the final chapter which is the payment of the bill is soon a matter of history It may be interesting to know that the Supply Agent's office is not estab
Interesting. Mine stops at 1/2 second intervals but they are not marked on the face. Does that mean it is or isn't a "split-second" stopwatch? Either way it would seem that it pre-dates dials.
The "Split Second" stopwatch is a different, higher quality model than the "100-Second Timer"
Here's one use:
QuoteOne on the Kicker The fact that a kicker may not always be a kicker is sometimes shown in the investigation of his criticisms of the service. A subscriber complained of being overcharged on his toll connections. A supervisor was instructed to time his calls and subscriber was furnished with a stop watch but still his timing did not agree with ours. An agent who was sent to the station found that the subscriber's clerk in answering the toll operator allowed her to put the distant party on the line before he notified his principal. The subscriber was not always prompt in responding the result being overcharges. A suggestion from the agent was sufficient to straighten the matter out and no further criticisms have been received from this subscriber. New England Telephone Topics 1908
What's a
kicker?
Greg-
I also noticed the markings and wondered if they had anything to do with a watchmaker documenting periodic calibrations.
Perhaps someone on this list knows of a watch collecting group that can provide further insight as to their meaning. As I stated earlier it is a nifty piece and it would be nice to find out its intended use.
Quote from: Sargeguy on March 19, 2014, 09:54:42 PM
Here's one use:
QuoteOne on the Kicker The fact that a kicker may not always be a kicker is sometimes shown in the investigation of his criticisms of the service. A subscriber complained of being overcharged on his toll connections. A supervisor was instructed to time his calls and subscriber was furnished with a stop watch but still his timing did not agree with ours. An agent who was sent to the station found that the subscriber's clerk in answering the toll operator allowed her to put the distant party on the line before he notified his principal. The subscriber was not always prompt in responding the result being overcharges. A suggestion from the agent was sufficient to straighten the matter out and no further criticisms have been received from this subscriber. New England Telephone Topics 1908
What's a kicker?
In the vernacular of the day it was a term derived from a mule or horse that one needed to be aware of since they were apt to kick you are another animal. It was also commonly used to describe a customer who was a chronic complainer; one who "kicks."
Alan Goldberg on the TCI listserv informs me that the Bell System measured call traffic in 100 second units, called CCS, with 36ccs equivalent to full usage in one hour, or "Erlang" on any given line. The Erlang is named after Agner Krarup Erlang, a Danish mathematician who did statistical analysis of telephone traffic at the Copenhagen exchange while working for the Bell System in the early 1900s. Erlang first published his work in 1908, so it appears that this type of watch was in use prior to 1908.
Quote from: Sargeguy on March 20, 2014, 08:04:38 AM
Alan Goldberg on the TCI listserv informs me that the Bell System measured call traffic in 100 second units, called CCS, with 36ccs equivalent to full usage in one hour, or "Erlang" on any given line. The Erlang is named after Agner Krarup Erlang, a Danish mathematician who did statistical analysis of telephone traffic at the Copenhagen exchange while working for the Bell System in the early 1900s. Erlang first published his work in 1908, so it appears that this type of watch was in use prior to 1908.
Greg-
CCS and the Erlang unit as developed by the Bell System's Messr Erlang continued to be used over a century by telephone operating companies worldwide so it would not be a means of dating your watch even though it does appear to be a very early one.
I still suspect that it would be beneficial to consult with a watch collectors group who most likely could easily date it and decode the watch inspector's repair/calibration marks.
I meant that this type of watch was in service by 1908 somewhere in the Bell System. The reference to Guinand watches in 1913 and the type of lettering seems pre-WWI. Erlangs are actually still used as a measure today if Wikipedia is to be believed, but I doubt they are still using stopwatches to measure them.
I guess they were used for timing toll calls, at least for quality control purposes:
Here is a side-by-side comparison of the two watches:
The #119 "Traffic" stopwatch has a lower serial #117040 and an ink stamp "W.E.48" in green. The dial face is bright white. The hallmark is "C.L. Guinand Locle Switzerland"
The #11 "Toll Obs" stopwatch has a higher serial #141458 and an ink stamp "W.E.42" in red. The dial face is yellowed with tick marks that go all the way to the edge. The hallmark is "G.H. Guinand Switzerland"
Side-by-side comparisons of the movements of each watch. There are some minor differences:
Found a SNET version, case only:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-28zA0vj0jLs/VYH9gkNB8AI/AAAAAAAAb90/wIORS3JJkCM/s450/DSC_0248.JPG)
Quote from: Sargeguy on March 17, 2014, 11:22:19 PM
Quote
I also noticed several marks scratched into the inside of the lid. They were all the letter A followed by 3 numbers. There is also a mark "W.E. 48" Maybe this watch pre-dates the calcugraph?
Nice find! Those marks are service/repair record marks. Many pocket and some wrist watch cases will have these. Looks like the watch was serviced regularly. What is the name of the watch maker? I can't make it out. Appears to be a Swiss watch. You would think NET&T would have bought a Waltham watch with that company being located in their service area (Massachusetts). Maybe Waltham didn't make a 100 second timer.
I know NET&T bought 8-day clocks from Waltham, so I guess that this type was not available. They are all made by C.L. Guinand in Locle Switzerland. The NET&T ones are stamped "WE" in ink, so I wonder if they were distributed through Western Electric. They do not appear in any of the catalogs. Other than these three, the only other telco marked example I've seen is one from the Wisconsin Tel. Co. Traffic Dept (http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-guinand-100-second-co-timer-133889617). These are also called "Industrial" timers and appear fairly regularly on eBay without telco markings.
Here is another example from the Wisconsin Telephone Company:(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xxzdnlESRKE/VqhDT85GJKI/AAAAAAAAcSc/3B00vRYL9T8/s640-Ic42/Wisconsin%252520Telephone%252520watch.jpg)
Another N.E.T.&T. Co. example
Just picked this one up the other day
That's a beauty, Greg. Why the two hands? Could you track 2 time periods simultaneously?
These were used to calculate traffic volume at a CO. it was used to measure erlangs. One hand measured time elapsed and the other measured time that the line was active.
They certainly had fine instruments when time was truly money.