1968 Western Electric Model 500 Has Constant Dial Tone, Questions?

[hemi71x]

Hey guys.
My next door neighbor found out that i'm into these old 1930's model 202 telephones.
Last night he brought over a 1968 Western Electric model 500 phone, thats been in a box, in his garage since the 1970's sometime.
Plugging it into the wall outlet, it has a constant dial tone. Won't break the dial tone at all when you dial it.
I printed out the wireing diagram from this board, and everything that i can see from the schematic looks like the guts inside the phone.
Any ideas what could be wrong with this phone, that i could look into?
He doesn't remember if this was a problem with the phone when his parents upgraded the phone back in the 70's, or something's now wrong with it since it's been sitting for decades.
I mentioned if anyone will know, it's people on classicrotoryphones.com as they have been kind to be with my 202 difficulties.
Thank's again.

[Doug Rose]

Switch the red and the green wires that come from the wall into the phone, could be as simple as that....Doug

[Phonesrfun]

It has to be that the dial wires are not correctly connected to the network, or the dial is malfunctioning.  Check that the blue and green wires from the dial are connected to F and RR on the network.  (Doesn't matter which is connected to which).  If that is OK, then the pusling contacts on the dial that the blue and green wires connect to are not opening and closing.

Try those two things.

[Dennis Markham]

I have been under the impression (probably mistakenly so) that reversing the polarity was only a fix when a touch tone keypad was inoperable.  When the touch tone phone has a polarity guard it makes no difference with red/green.  Swapping the red/green on a rotary phone should make no difference.  The assumption here is that it's a rotary phone that your friend has since you said a model 500.

If it is rotary it could be the contact points on the dial are bent or the pulsing cam is not positioned as it should be.  It seems unlikely unless someone had the dial off and was tinkering with it that it would be that problem.  More than likely it is a wiring issue.

My first thought though was since you had problems with the other phone and now this one that maybe there's an issue with your phone jack??

As always, a picture is worth a thousand words.

(Bill I wrote this while you were posting....)

[Adam]

I have been under the impression (probably mistakenly so) that reversing the polarity was only a fix when a touch tone keypad was inoperable.

You are not mistaken.  This is a fact.  The dialing function of rotary (pulse) telephone sets like the 500 and 554 are NOT polarity sensitive, and will work on pulse-capable lines with the red and green wires connected in either polarity.

The polarity of the red and green wires on these sets is only significant if the set has anything other than a straight-line ringer.  That means that the majority of 500 type sets you will see these days are not polarity sensitive in any way.

[hemi71x]

Ok, Tried reversing the red and green wires on the phone.
Plugged it in here at my house and then over at his house.
Didn't work. Same thing. Dial tone all the time.
So i guess we can rule of the phone jacks, at both houses.
Tried a new phone cord too, at both places.
Will look further into the dial, wires, connections, there.
Keep our fingers crossed, but i'v got to leave now, and get my Saturday errands done around the city.

[Phonesrfun]

I was thinking he was describing a rotary phone.  Hemi, is it a rotary?

-Bill

[Dennis Markham]

As a side-note (I've been thinking about this thread) I have heard that reversing red/green will often help reduce or eliminate bell tap in a rotary phone.

Hemi, you should be able to check that Model 500 by simply ensuring the wiring complies with this color diagram:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2767.0

[GG]

I assume you have dial phones working on your home landline, so it's not an issue of an ATA that isn't accepting dial pulses.

In that case then, yes it has to be a dial problem. 

WE dials are almost impossible to break such that they won't send dial pulses.  The pulse cam is almost foolproof.  However, the pulse spring contacts have to be adjusted properly in order to work with that cam. 

So the thing to do is look very closely at the dial contacts (remove the dust cover) to see that they are opening and closing regularly as the cam operates.  If they are not operating properly, they can be adjusted by bending very slightly with needle nosed pliers, but be very careful to not overdo. 

Another possibility is that something is bridging the F and RR terminals on the network block.  Be sure that the metal spade connectors on the dial wires are not touching each other, or the other terminals, or any other metal parts of the phone.  Look to be sure nothing is bridging the terminals. 

Yet another possibility, less likely, is that something is bridged or burned out in the network block, creating a short across F and RR.   The way to find that out is:  While listening to dial tone, remove both green and blue wires from the dial to F and RR, and see if the dial tone is still heard.  If so, that's your trouble.  There are some clever wiring changes that can deal with that issue, but they take a long description to make clear, so I'll leave it here for now unless you come back to report that you still have dial tone with the dial wiring removed from F and RR. 

Note, when the dial wires are removed from F and RR, the phone behaves like a test handset in "monitor" mode: you'll be able to listen in while you pick up another rotary dial phone on the same line and dial out: you'll hear the other phone getting dial tone, dialing successfully, and in conversation.  If you don't hear those things under that condition, there's something else wrong with the network block on the phone in question. 

Either way, let us know. 

[hemi71x]

Someone on this board told me in a reply, that if i get into vintage telephones that i'm probably going to wind up owning more than one.
Well, he was right. My next door neighbor wound up giving this one to me now.
Just wish that i could come across an old phone that will work correctly from the git go.
I'll have to continue to look into this as time permits.
Haven't been busy lately with my car parts stuff, but now i have stuff to do in occupying my time.
So this old phone might be on the "back burner" so to speak, for a week or so, until i some some more, nothing to do, idle time to devote to it.

One thing i was wondering about though, and don't know if this has anything to do with it, is the phone cord and the plastic recepticle connection that it plugs into in the back of the phone.

The wire has 4 connections, color coded yellow, green, red, black, in that order.
The telephone connection has 3 wires to it. red, green, yellow.
Why 3 wires in the phone connection, and 4 wires in the phone cord?

I also thought about those copper "finger" contacts in the phone if they were bent out of shape or not, but i never knew enough to look at them when dialing the dial.
Thank's for that tip, i will look into that.

I'd like to get it going. A little challenge here. Will get back to it when i get some spare time with nothing else to do.
Keep ya posted.

[Phonesrfun]

There are only two wires coming into the house on a phone line, an only two wires on the output of an ATA for internet VoIP phones.  If you are using a modular plug those wires are the red and the green.  That is all that are used.  The yellow and black are there for other purposes, and should normally not even be connected, and have a piece of tape over the ends so they don't interfere with the other wires in the phone.

Other common uses for this extra pair of wires are:

Light voltage for a Princess or Trimline phone with the lightetd dial
A second line that comes into a two-line phone
Voltages for digital proprietary PBX type phones

However, the phone only needs the two wires coming into it.  In pre-modular days, the 500 was wired in such a way that the yellow wire was used in a way to select ringing for party line phones.  This wiring method is not used any more with modular plugs.  To make sure a 500 rings when using a modular plug, the black ringer wire needs to be connected to L1 on the network where the green line wire connects.

[rp2813]

It's sometimes tough to determine whether the dial mechanism's contacts are opening and closing properly, as tolerances are fairly close.  If you had another dial to compare it with (likely a series 7) that could make things a little easier.

There's a recent thread here about disassembly of a 7 series dial and some trouble that resulted.  That turned out to be an issue with the cam, but there are some good pix in that thread that might be helpful.

Here's a link:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=4492.0

[Dennis Markham]

I think we're assuming it is a 7 series dial.  If the phone is from '69 and it has modular plugs it's more than likely a later dial--a #9.  But it's all speculation without some photos.  I suspect a wiring issue over a bent dial contact, unless the dial has been out of the phone and banged around.  They're pretty well protected when on the mounting bracket.

[hemi71x]

Hey guys.
Last night i answered a local Craigslist ad for some "antique" items that were listed for a estate sale.
I went and picked up another 1960's rotary dial telephone.
This one WORKS.
Fully functional, and the good part is i got it for $20.00.
So what i plan on doing is taking the cover off this one, and compare all the wires in this fully functional one, and compare everything to my other one that won't break the dial tone.
I should be buying these phones in person where i can check them out before i hand over the dollars to see if they work 100%
Lot's better in person than off eBay, not knowing what your gonna be getting.

I'm having internet service provider connection problems at my residence, and i'm at the local library right now using my laptop on their WiFi internet connection.
I should be able to look into my other phone tonight and see if i can come up any solutions on that one.
Wish me luck.
I'll let ya know when i'm back online at my residence.
Thank's.
Jim V.

[Dan]

Good method. I still get out my 302's that ring and compare them to the non ringers. I can only memorize so much.....