I have a nice forget-me-not blue AE 182 Starlite that I bought at a flea market. When I got it, it needed a new line cord (which I replaced), and it did not have a bell in the set (which I have yet to replace). I wired everything according to the wiring diagram I have attached. When the set is plugged into my line (which works with every rotary phone I own), there is no dial tone but a faint buzzing sound that goes away when I push down the hookswitch.
However, when I try to dial out with the set, I hear the pulses over the line and then I hear clear audible dial tone. It is clearly not breaking dial tone to allow me to dial out, however. At this point I am assuming the problem is one of the capacitors on the network (in which case I will order a new network), but I just want to make sure I can narrow down any other potential problems first. Attached below is a picture of the inside of the phone, and the wiring diagram I followed to get it going. I double checked all the connectors, and everything is wired properly (save for the missing bell, and the illumination which this set doesnt have).
I am not sure, but try to strap 3 and 2.
dsk
Unfortunately I don't have any jumper wires. Is there a good alternative to that?
It is just to see if it makes it work properly. A piece of a paper clip or for that matter you can likely misalign the spade lugs under each of those screw terminals do that they are "inadvertently" shorted against each other.
Terry
You may also move black and green wires from handset from the terminal no 3 to the terminal no 2.
By some reason some Starlite circuits has that connection between 2 and 3 on the printed board, other just have some metallic connection between.
If the moving makes the phone work the lack of the electric connection between 2 and 3 when you have moved the wires will give you a slightly odd anti sidetone compensation, causing louder receiver volume than wanted.
dsk
So first I tried strapping 3 and 2 with some wire, to no luck. This didn't change the situation. Then I tried putting the green and black handset wires from terminal 3 to terminal 2. This also didn't change the situation. No dial tone on pickup of handset, makes dial tone when you pulses from the dial, but it won't break dial tone. I attached the 2 pictures of my attempts.
Quote from: b3tamax11 on May 23, 2016, 12:50:56 PM
I have a nice forget-me-not blue AE 182 Starlite that I bought at a flea market. When I got it, it needed a new line cord (which I replaced), and it did not have a bell in the set (which I have yet to replace). I wired everything according to the wiring diagram I have attached. When the set is plugged into my line (which works with every rotary phone I own), there is no dial tone but a faint buzzing sound that goes away when I push down the hookswitch.
However, when I try to dial out with the set, I hear the pulses over the line and then I hear clear audible dial tone. It is clearly not breaking dial tone to allow me to dial out, however. At this point I am assuming the problem is one of the capacitors on the network (in which case I will order a new network), but I just want to make sure I can narrow down any other potential problems first. Attached below is a picture of the inside of the phone, and the wiring diagram I followed to get it going. I double checked all the connectors, and everything is wired properly (save for the missing bell, and the illumination which this set doesnt have).
I think you need to more clearly establish what happens and when.
I would not attempt to make recommendations based on what I read.
there is no dial tone but a faint buzzing sound that goes away when I push down the hookswitch. When you push the hookswitch, the switch should be disconnecting the set from the line and you should not hear anything, as you do. So, there is no problem other than not having a clear dial tone when off-hook at this point.
What exactly happens when you take the set off-hook? You only hear the buzz? Do you have side tone? Whistle or blow into the transmitter--can you hear that through the receiver?
You should test this operation more closely. Unplug the set from the line. Take the set off-hook and listen to the receiver. Now plug the set back into the line.
Do you hear the buzzing immediately or do you hear dial tone first?
However, when I try to dial out with the set, I hear the pulses over the line and then I hear clear audible dial tone.When exactly do you hear clear dial tone?
You hear dial tone after dialing one digit ?
Does it matter which digit you dial? Do you also hear dial tone when you just tap the hook switch very quickly?
Quote from: unbeldi on May 24, 2016, 06:32:24 PM
I think you need to more clearly establish what happens and when.
I would not attempt to make recommendations based on what I read.
there is no dial tone but a faint buzzing sound that goes away when I push down the hookswitch.
When you push the hookswitch, the switch should be disconnecting the set from the line and you should not hear anything, as you do. So, there is no problem other than not having a clear dial tone when off-hook at this point.
What exactly happens when you take the set off-hook? You only hear the buzz? Do you have side tone? Whistle or blow into the transmitter--can you hear that through the receiver?
You should test this operation more closely. Unplug the set from the line. Take the set off-hook and listen to the receiver. Now plug the set back into the line.
Do you hear the buzzing immediately or do you hear dial tone first?
However, when I try to dial out with the set, I hear the pulses over the line and then I hear clear audible dial tone.
When exactly do you hear clear dial tone?
You hear dial tone after dialing one digit ?
Does it matter which digit you dial? Do you also hear dial tone when you just tap the hook switch very quickly?
I ran some more quick tests as you recommended.
1. When I plug the set in and pick up the handset, all that comes through is the faint buzz as I described. I tested talking, whistling or blowing into the transmitter, but I cannot hear any of it through the receiver.
2. I then unplugged the set, took the handset off the hook and listened to the receiver. I then plugged the set back into the line. The buzzing appears immediately, there is no dial tone.
3. When I turn the dial, this is the sound it makes: "Dial pulses, with dial tone in between each pulse, then solid dial tone for a few seconds after the pulses are finished." It does not matter which digit I dial, all of them do the same. Tapping the hookswitch rapidly does not do anything.
When the dial is off-normal, i.e. when the dial is wound up and until it has reached is normal position again, you really should hear very little or best nothing at all.
I am not terribly familiar with the Starlites' transmission unit, but there is very little that can go wrong with it in principle. I believe the circuit behaves in principle like a WECo circuit, so that the receiver is shunted during that time.
Sometimes, however, the contacts on the shunt switch on the dial don't close properly or the contact points are oxidized permitting sound into the receiver, in which case the sound should be greatly diminished.
Can you run the same tests again, but with the transmitter element removed from the handset?
A replacement ringer should be easy to find. Just this week I saw something like 7 of them on sale for a very low price.
Here is the circuit for these Starlites.
The transmission unit is what I expected.
This came from GSP AE 997-015-800 Issue 4 1978, Type 182A and 192A Starlite Telephone Sets; Shop Procedure
I think that is also the source of your wiring diagram.
I removed the transmitter and ran the same tests, there was no difference. Would it really be the dial itself that causes no dial tone on pickup of the handset?
Quote from: b3tamax11 on May 24, 2016, 09:28:33 PM
I removed the transmitter and ran the same tests, there was no difference. Would it really be the dial itself that causes no dial tone on pickup of the handset?
I would not be so quick to judgement. The dial is easy to test actually. It appears the pulsing contacts are working just fine. Disconnect the other two wires on terminals 2 and 4, white and red?, and observe any differences. The telephone should work with these wires removed, they only provide protection against clicks in the receiver.
I removed the White and Red Dial wires from terminals 2 and 4. On handset pickup, there is still no dial tone, just the same buzzing as before.
Quote from: b3tamax11 on May 24, 2016, 10:43:05 PM
I removed the White and Red Dial wires from terminals 2 and 4. On handset pickup, there is still no dial tone, just the same buzzing as before.
ok, the more interesting part would be what happens after dialing a number.
If that behave still the same, we know the dial was not even involved properly previously.
Is that the same dial you posted in the Wanted section?
It seems to be missing one wire.
Yes it is the same dial, and now that I notice, you're right. It is missing the brown wire from the dial to terminal 9.
Here's a pic . Your missing a blue wire on your dial that goes to network #1 . The brown is not used on your dial. Here's your dial in the middle . The line in cord is 5 conductor. stub
left click on pic to enlarge
For pulsing out the signal, yellow and blue are the only 2 important wires. The other ones are for not getting loud clicking in the receiver etc. The brown was not always there because it was an extra for special use on party lines.
dsk
In your first picture of the base with transmission unit I see a blue wire running out of the picture in a group with red, yellow, white and black wires. I assume the blue one is the wire broken off from the dial terminal. An open circuit like that, especially with a long wire acting as an antenna can certainly pickup inductive noise from nearby sources.
Your dial looks actually pretty good, no need for a new one, just solder that wire back onto its rightful place. Then we can see what problems remain.
Good news everyone! I soldered the blue wire back into the dial, wired it all back up, and plugged it in. Dial Tone!!!! I then dialed out with the set, and it works great!!! The phone is pretty much 100% functional now, aside from the missing ringer which I will get next, then I can start looking into potentially getting the dial illuminated again, as my dial actually is the illuminating type. Thanks everyone for your help, I very much appreciate it!!!! Here's a picture of my (first time) solder job.
b3tamax11,
Here's the rest of what you need to get power to your dial light. I'll try to see if I have the 5 conductor line in cord in blue. stub
( picture belongs to AE_Collector. )
Oh...FMN (Forget Me Not) Blue...I just woke up....I have some brand new 5 conductor FMN Blue Starlite cords and can likely round up a ringer and may be able to part with one more current limiting plug. See what you've got Stub.
Terry
Great! Congratulations!
Extremely observant to see that blue wire was broken!
dsk
Quote from: AE_Collector on May 27, 2016, 12:13:36 AM
Oh...FMN (Forget Me Not) Blue...I just woke up....I have some brand new 5 conductor FMN Blue Starlite cords and can likely round up a ringer and may be able to part with one more current limiting plug. See what you've got Stub.
Terry
Thanks! Let me know what you have. Do you think my dimmer switch should still be good?
b3tamax11,
Your switch should still be good , the only problem I found is where the wire connectors are bonded to the metal plate underneath the dial where the two black wires are plugged in . stub
Thanks to other members here, and especially Terry and Stub, I learned a lot and got mine in working order some years ago, later I got one more, and in a house full of phones, these are the only 2 of same model hooked up. I have learned to like AE phones too.
Since I am living in Norway, I had to make my own adapters suitable for 230V 50Hz
dsk
PS mine:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=5690.25
DS
b3tamax11 ,
Looked thru cords and all I had were 2 turquoise ,1 white. Sorry. stub
Quote from: stub on May 27, 2016, 11:05:54 PM
b3tamax11 ,
Looked thru cords and all I had were 2 turquoise ,1 white. Sorry. stub
Thanks for looking, I appreciate it!
Okay, hopefully this is everything you need to properly hook up your Starlite to 120VAC and make it ring.
- Ringer is tested and capacitor is with it.
- Current limiting plug for Starlite phone tested good. (The 120V part, not the current limiting part though I can see the resistors inside.)
- New Forget Me Not Blue 5 conductor cord. In Canada CSA made AE supply cords with stranded twisted conductors for the AC rather than 5 conductor tinsel type cords that were used in the USA to the best of my knowledge.
- Block to connect the phone cord and the AC feed (use lamp,cord from plug to block) to the telephone line. While the outside of these blocks look pretty much identical to the AE supplied blocks right down to the diamond shaped (?) raised lid, this block is actually a NT QBB1A block not an AE 13C (I Think that was the AE number?). I have several of the AE blocks but only with 3 terminals inside for normal phone cords and the AE blocks are a dark beige colour where as the NT block looks to be their "Chameleon Gray" colour and has 4 terminals inside.
Terry
Terry,
If the dial will light - be carefull this is 120 volts AC here in the states. If dial ring won't light then go here ( http://tinyurl.com/h39dl9r ) and fix it. You can check it in the phone if you like , use B and C terminals . Ringer and hookswitch removed for clearer pics . Hope this helps. stub
Quote from: AE_Collector on May 30, 2016, 11:33:39 PM
Okay, hopefully this is everything you need to properly hook up your Starlite to 120VAC and make it ring.
- Ringer is tested and capacitor is with it.
- Current limiting plug for Starlite phone tested good. (The 120V part, not the current limiting part though I can see the resistors inside.)
- New Forget Me Not Blue 5 conductor cord. In Canada CSA made AE supply cords with stranded twisted conductors for the AC rather than 5 conductor tinsel type cords that were used in the USA to the best of my knowledge.
- Block to connect the phone cord and the AC feed (use lamp,cord from plug to block) to the telephone line. While the outside of these blocks look pretty much identical to the AE supplied blocks right down to the diamond shaped (?) raised lid, this block is actually a NT QBB1A block not an AE 13C (I Think that was the AE number?). I have several of the AE blocks but only with 3 terminals inside for normal phone cords and the AE blocks are a dark beige colour where as the NT block looks to be their "Chameleon Gray" colour and has 4 terminals inside.
Terry
Thanks for finding everything I need! I will send you a message with my shipping and PayPal details.
Just to clarify, with the terminal block, there is one cord coming from the phone to the terminal block, and then from the terminal block there is 2 wires, one for the lighted dial and then a separate cable to the phone jack?
b3tamax11,
Here you go . stub
Quote from: stub on May 31, 2016, 02:15:49 PM
b3tamax11,
Here you go . stub
Great! So I whipped up a quick wiring diagram just to make sure I have everything correct, does it look right?
b3tamax11,
Looks good here . I don't know which terminal block Terry is sending you but here's one of the older 5 terminal blocks. I didn't have the right wire at the time I fixed this one up to see if it worked. stub
Left click on pics to enlarge
I was going to send the ivory coloured NT block rather than the dark beige AE block as I don't have any more AE blocks equipped with all 5 terminals. I think the Ivory colour looks better as well.
Since the phones no longer need grounded ringers (thus the green and red cord leads are sometimes put together under one screw terminal), only 4 terminals are needed in the block anyway. I could move one set of terminals out of a 3 terminal AE block (have lots of them) into another one so that there are 4 terminals in the AE block if you prefer to keep it 100% AE. Notice in the picture that the AE has the centre post to put the circular AE cord restraint over while the NE block has the slots for the wing type NE/WE cord restraint.
Does anyone know if WE ever used blocks like the NE block? Strange that AE and NE look do identical on the outside. I wonder who copied who.
On your drawing all looks correct except no need to hook the yellow of the cord heading to the wall Jack to the green. Leave it disconnected from the circuit and insulated so it doesn't short anything. Or maybe you will just gave a two conductor cord with just red and green leads.
Back when it was just as likely that a phone might be installed as a Party line as a private line, they mainly came with three conductor cords to accomplish either arrangement. The phones circuitry (except for the ringer) was across the green and red cord leads. The ringer was connected between the red and the yellow cord leads inside the phone.
An installer could install the phone as a private line, party one or a party two without having to open the phone up and move wires around. Putting the green and yellow cord leads together had the effect of putting the bell across the Tip and Ring (green and red) leads which is bridged ringing for a private line. For a party one phone the leads were all kept separate at the block with an electrical ground on the third (yellow) cord lead so the bell was from the red side of the phone line to yellow (ground). To install the phone as a party two phone the same thing was done as the party one phoneexcept the green and red cord leads were reversed (green cord lead on red station wire and red cord lead to the green station wire lead) which effectively put the ringer from the green side of the phone line to ground.
For your Starlite you could go either way with the cord but if you would like to have it as original as possible, I would put the ringer across the red and yellow leads of the cord (through the capacitor of course, you will see that there is a terminal on the phones network board to connect that up properly) and then put the yellow and green cord leads together on the terminal at the block along with the green cord lead heading to the wall Jack.
Here are the two variety's of blocks. Pretty much identical on the outside but a bit different inside. AE on the left and NE on the right.
Terry
The current limiting plug output wires, with nothing connected should have the same voltage out as in, so measuring that is an easy thing. Do not try to connect the lowing ring without the current limiting plug! And of course be careful, you are working on mains voltage! Even when the current limiting plug should protect you something could fail.
dsk
Out of curiosity, is the dial light source a luminescent panel as opposed to an LED or other source?
Look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroluminescence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroluminescence)
It is a kind of semiconductor, but it seems light brighter when frequency or voltage is high.
dsk
I thought that was what it was. My great aunt had one of those night lights in her house. I had remembered Sylvania had made it. Sylvania being a division of AE's parent, GTE.
So I've got everything working and ringing thanks to Terry's parts, except the dial only lights up on the middle setting on the dimmer switch. On high it shuts off. Perhaps it needs better lamp cord?
Is there 3 or 4 distinct positions for the switch? It looks in your picture as though the switch has 4 terminals so there is likely 3 distinct positions. The wiring looks as though it would have Off, Low and High positions. I can't tell for sure where the resistor is connected to the switch so the order might be Off, Hi and Low rather than Off, Low and High.
I will check one of my Starlites when I get home tomorrow. They aren't usually very bright so maybe the low position just doesn't look as though it is lit at all. Possibly the EL ring has degraded in brightness over the years.
How does it look with that brand new Forget Me Not Blue cord?
Terry
Looks like you have a 3 pos. sw. (just like me) Off, dim and full. In full position the resistor is bypassed. Dim is actually extremely dim, just to be seen in a really dark room, but not keep you away from sleeping.
dsk
Quote from: AE_Collector on June 08, 2016, 11:32:29 AM
Is there 3 or 4 distinct positions for the switch? It looks in your picture as though the switch has 4 terminals so there is likely 3 distinct positions. The wiring looks as though it would have Off, Low and High positions. I can't tell for sure where the resistor is connected to the switch so the order might be Off, Hi and Low rather than Off, Low and High.
I will check one of my Starlites when I get home tomorrow. They aren't usually very bright so maybe the low position just doesn't look as though it is lit at all. Possibly the EL ring has degraded in brightness over the years.
How does it look with that brand new Forget Me Not Blue cord?
Terry
The switch should have four terminals for a three-position switch, although in this circuit only three contacts are used.
position 1: 1-2
position 2: 2-3
position 3: 3-4
The circuit diagram I posted early in this topic shows the functions.
b3tamax11,
Here's a pic of one ( barn fresh ). 4 terminals , 3 positions. High should be like wired up direct , dim thru the resistor and off. Operate the switch from off to high a bunch of times , with power on , to see if you can clean the contacts. Also check the wiring . Top pick is in off position , sec pic is on high , last in is dim . stub
left click on pics to enlarge
Quote from: AE_Collector on June 08, 2016, 11:32:29 AM
Is there 3 or 4 distinct positions for the switch? It looks in your picture as though the switch has 4 terminals so there is likely 3 distinct positions. The wiring looks as though it would have Off, Low and High positions. I can't tell for sure where the resistor is connected to the switch so the order might be Off, Hi and Low rather than Off, Low and High.
I will check one of my Starlites when I get home tomorrow. They aren't usually very bright so maybe the low position just doesn't look as though it is lit at all. Possibly the EL ring has degraded in brightness over the years.
How does it look with that brand new Forget Me Not Blue cord?
Terry
Everything looks great, thanks again! The only visual issue is that the plastic is somewhat yellowed from its original color so it looks different from the cord, I haven't decided if I'm going to do a chemical treatment or just do some sanding.
I just went through the entire thread and the only picture of the phone to verify the colour (until now) was in your first post where the handset cord can be seen. The handset cord is definitely FMN Blue but the phone looks more like AE's "Turquoise". This is fairly common as FMN Blue likes to become "turquoise" when exposed to lots of sunlight and/or maybe fluorescent light or Smoke. Does the inside of the shell and receiver/caps match the new FMN Blue cord?
Terry
Quote from: AE_Collector on June 09, 2016, 09:32:48 PM
I just went through the entire thread and the only picture of the phone to verify the colour (until now) was in your first post where the handset cord can be seen. The handset cord is definitely FMN Blue but the phone looks more like AE's "Turquoise". This is fairly common as FMN Blue likes to become "turquoise" when exposed to lots of sunlight and/or maybe fluorescent light or Smoke. Does The inside of the shell and receiver/caps match the new FMN Blue cord?
Terry
The inside of the shell matches exactly. I took a picture to show the difference: