WE 202B KTU issues-R and PF relays

[Babybearjs]

  OK, so now I have this problem that seems to be unsolvable. I have a 202B KTU that won't work if there is a power failure or the system is off for maint. I re-read the schematic and rewired the PF link to my 212KTU. Now, because of that, the R relay is bypassed and won't actuate when the number is called. so.... what should I do next? could the 202B be bad, or is it the wiring?

[Key2871]

I strongly recommend that you try to trouble shoot your problems before you post. Because nine out of ten you will find the problem soon after posting.
This site didn't exist when I had problems with my 1A2 and I just got out the manual to try to find my problem, and it worked.
If you don't have BSPs for your system, find them and review before you jump on and ask. YOU are the only one I know that still uses 1A equipment, everyone I know has 1A2 or electronic KSUs . So check check and check again you will find the problem..

[Babybearjs]

the manuals don't cover diagnostics on these old systems. that's why I'm asking.

[Key2871]

Yes I'm aware of that. But it's a matter of looking at the schematic of the area to try to find the trouble.
With that it's most likely wiring issues. Unless the spring relays are out of whack. You recently had a problem, quickly found it was a matter of having the unit unplugged, and the PW relay was working as it should.
So look at your system, wiring and schematic diagram and trace down what the issue might be.
You will get a huge sense of pride figuring the problem out yourself. I bet it's a simple problem, you just need to track it down and fix it.

[Babybearjs]

have you ever worked on a 1A1 system?

[Key2871]

No, only 1A2. And I had a couple issues from time to time, most were telset problems, and couple were wiring.
I learned it's important to keep wiring a standard all the time. Because when I was in a hurry that's when problems would crop up a day or week later. Yours with all those screw connections must be very time consuming to get everything done right.
But if you have worked on your system enough, you should get familiar with things that pop up causing problems.
Learn from those, write them down if that helps, I used to do that early on. That way I had something to refresh my memory the next time. After a while I figured things out just by past experiences. My first system was an ITT 501 with a 207B ktu for intercom. There were wires running here and there but I had no information about connecting it all up. With a butt set, and a key set, I figured out how to connect up a station cable, how to connect up the dial intercom system and it all worked fine for a while. But later making improvements, would cause minor problems that I had to figure out with no manual or diagrams. Just logic of how it should work.

[Key2871]

If you wired your system right, you should be able to isolate stations with blocks or bridge clips. So if something strange comes up, it's a matter of isolating the system, then by station cable, etc that way it's easier to find problems.
That is key when you want to get down to the root cause quick. Later I used connectors, because station cables were piggy backed with others, so using an M block, put a female connector on it, a male on the other station cable and just pulled plugs to quickly isolate the problem. I'd start with the system first, them move onto station cables, then to stations them selves. Using a known working station key set for trouble shooting. In minutes I found the problem, and corrected it.

[Babybearjs]

I want you to pull up BSP 518-114-110 and look at Page #6. this is the functional schematic for my unit... the 202B.

[Key2871]

Not tonight, tomorrow. If I even have it. My manual covers 1A2 and comkey. Very little 1A1. But I'll check, I may have to do internet for those.
So now I've roped myself into helping you, what are symptoms? It really helps me to go from there..
Re reading. Your first post, the R relay worked with how you had it wired before, but you changed the wiring for power fail and now the R is not operating. Just from that tells me either it's wired wrong or it's not supposed to work that way.
I don't recall much on that part of the circuit so without looking at the schematic I can't give you the answer.
But what if you change back the way it was and verify that the R relay was working, then go wire by wire to see where it stops working. It sounds like you don't have the schematic either. So just with that I would go back, and set one step at a time to find the problem.

Ken

[Key2871]

OK, this is getting so crazy. YOU wired a new circuit that wasn't already in your system? So you now have this wired in, and now the R is by passed and won't work. So just from that, it tells me if the R is by passed how could it work in the first place? And are you aware that PF only provides key operation to the sets in case the power fails?
If there is no power to the system, how can anything work?
We're not talking about a modern key system that has back up power via a battery to provide service for an hour after power is killed, so with your vague description of the problem, this is what I have concluded.
Even 1A2 only provides key operation, no lights no signalling no relay operation. In other words it only gives you the chance to call out, unless it's wired to ring when power is out and from what I remember this was provided via a relay that when the power went out, would allow a bell to ring via CO current during a power failure. It would not allow for hold function, key lights etc. No CA signalling. Just a bell for say line one, maybe two lines.
You are aware of this, right?

[Key2871]

OK John, I have the schematic. But I have not heard anything from you about your problem. Did you figure it out, like I thought you would?

[Babybearjs]

the problem is still here, I've just put it to bed for now. thanks for the help...

[Key2871]

Alright. But if the 202B worked before you did changes, it's those changes that most likely caused the problem.
I've run into that before my self.

[Babybearjs]

its never really worked right. the R relay is suppose to engage when it detects a ringing voltage. If I wire it without the power failure circuit, it only engages when the power to the system is off. when power is applied, it ignores the ringing voltage... so, I'm on the hunt for another 202B. I'm pretty sure this one needs to be replaced... The unit controls my 4th line... one of my C*Net lines...

[Key2871]

John, I'm looking at the schematic but I can't see an R relay.
Is is actually part of that circuit pack, and if so what contacts are they in respect to the schematic. I've looked and looked, but I cannot see the R relay. Now it could be the relay that is shown in the schematic, but it's not designated R relay.
Please enlighten me.
Edit, I do see a block type thing I assume is a coil? Because that's not what I see as a coil in any schematic. Now there are several components that connect to that and anyone of them failing can cause the coil not to function. There's a resistor that has a tube Indicated is there a tube in the circuit pack? As I said, I've never worked on these I've had the different parts but never actually done anything with them because I don't like the ancient systems. Though many will say today that the A2 is ancient. And they would be right. Compared to what is available today.