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Rotatone vs Dialgizmo - Dial Hold features

Started by MCCAFFRP, October 22, 2015, 11:27:53 PM

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MCCAFFRP

Hello,
I recently purchased (2) Dialgizmo units and am running them with Western Electric 302 series dial phones. Both phones work flawlessly on standard POTS lines. I recently "cut the cord" to AT&T and cancelled my POTS line and went with Ooma Telo. All phones in my home work properly. My old WE 302 phones dial fine but the dial-hold features dont work. Ooma does not filter anything - its not the service's issue and I have read elsewhere on this forum that the design/wiring of the dial in these specific 302 model phones are such that those extra features might not work. Well, I can say I notice that the handset sound does indeed cut out completely while I am dialing a number (1) or (2) and holding for two seconds as required to dial a # or *. The Dialgizmo doesn't know what I am doing except that it dials another (1) or (2) no matter how long or short I hold the dial. The redial feature and speed dial features don't work either. I was wondering if anyone here with a technical phone background could verify whether or not a properly wired Rotatone unit will add these features or whether or not my model of dial phone can be rewired so that the Dialgizmo's extra features will work? So far I feel that the advertising on the DG page was misleading. He said these work with most all dial phones and has not responded to my question. Wouldnt one think that "most" dial phones would include one of the most popular dial phones in world history? Should I buy a Rotatone? Thanks in advance for any help!

dsk

I have no idea about Ooma Telo, but have struggled with the DH features on some phones.  It worked for me by  putting in a capacitor and a resistor in the line between the Dialgizmo and the exchange. (adapter)   A resistor of 220 ohms makes the voltage drop in to the Dialgizmo higher, and easier to sense. To not restrict the voice signal too much I shunted the same resistor with a capacitor of 1-5 microfarad.
You may try with just a resistor in the range 90-220 ohms, and if you still my speak and dial, you put in a capacitor if needed.

dsk

Mister Mike

#2
MCCAFFRP, don't order the Rotatone just yet! Assuming you've disconnected the line from the Phone company in the outside box so your house telephone wiring carries no voltage, try connecting the "line" side of the Dialgizmo to the "Phone" jack in the back of the Ooma, and connect a line cord from the "phone" jack of the Dialgizmo to the nearest phone jack on your wall. This way you'll have Ooma and Dialgizmo throughout the house, and you can sell or give away the second Dialgizmo (you'll have no trouble finding a buyer).

I don't know any technical reason why this might work better than your current setup -- it might not work at all -- but it should be worth a shot as I have the same Ooma and 300 series phone and everything seems to be working for me so far.

MCCAFFRP

Hi Mister Mike,
Your suggestion works - as far as removing the need for one of my two Dialgizmos - but this does not fix my problem of no "Dial Hold" features. I cant dial a # or * nor does last call dialed or speed dial work. Can you verify that you can use these features with the same phone and Dialgizmo? If this is true, I either received 2 defective DG units or my phones are both wired wrong internally. My home has been disconnected from At&T and this issue is the same when using a single phone or all of my phones connected. For what it is worth - the dial number tones work fine - loud and clear - but after the call connects and I need to hit a # or *, and I dial and hold a (#1) for two seconds - during the time I am holding, the sound is completely cut off, and when I release my dial - the sound that is created is simply another (#1) and not the #. Are you saying these features work with your 302 and Dialgizmo?

Mister Mike

Hmm, the 354 is the wall version of the 302, and internally the same phone (as is my understanding). The good news is that it's unlikely that you have 2 miswired phones and two defective Dialgizmos, so it must be something simple. The best test of the dial hold feature is redial, just because there's no doubt as to whether it's working when a number starts auto dialing. If that works, all those features should work. Try holding the "9," and make sure to count a full "one one thousand, two one thousand" before letting it go. If that still doesn't work, maybe check that the jumper switches on the Dialgizmo are at their default settings (per the manual). If you still have no luck, report back.

MCCAFFRP

Hi Mike,
Checked the dip switch on Dialgizmo, its correct. No features work. Dial hold features fully tested - holding proper 2 seconds. Is it normal on these phones to have no sound while dialing and holding? I read somewhere where the dial wiring for these might cause some trouble with these features. I was probably reading too much into what the poster said - and trusting that he knew what he was talking about. But I am curious as to why yours works and mine doesnt?! Can you compare the wiring for the WE 302 against your phone? Thanks!

dsk

DH function may be a problem for more than 1 reason. I have not always solved it, but thinking about the unit, how does it recognize the difference between no dialling, and winding up the dial and holding it before you let it go? It has to be an electrical difference changing the current going trough the entire circuit.  A W.E. 500 has 2 sets of contacts, the pulsing contact (which not does anything before you let the dial go) and a shunting of the receiver. This is a shunting on a part who not changes the current, so a 500 will never be able to use DH without modifications.  This are not the same on an AE 80 has an extra contact shunting the entire voice circuit, and the current will rise, unless automatic compensation on the supply side.  I am not sure if the 302 has used different dials, but the one I have does like the AE, shunting the entire voice circuit. It works on my ATA (Linksys PAP2). 
dsk

MCCAFFRP

I am going to try messing around with a 220K resistor in the line. I've disconnected the dial shunt via the "R" wire and no changes except for it made loud clicks when dialing now. It must have disconnected the capacitor too. I'll post with my results soon. Thanks. Maybe Mr. Mike will have some feedback as to why his 354 works. The wiring is very similar to the 302. It was the wall mount companion phone to the 302, but the wiring isnt exactly the same and maybe the dial isnt the same. Maybe we could learn something by comparing the wiring diagrams?

dsk

I got this schematic's, and yes it seems identical to the 354.  The important way the current follows when dial are out of rest position is colored by red (ring) and green (tip).  What it shunts out is ringed in by orange. If the wire from the dial to L1 has been moved to R on the induction coil, it may cause such error as you describe.  (and it is almost natural to let the wire from dial R go to Induction coil R and not L1 as it should)

dsk

poplar1

354 wiring is the same as 304 (not 302). However, in all 3 models, the line is shorted in a similar manner when the dial is operated.

302 and 352 are equivalent, but Western Electric apparently never manufactured a 352, even though Northern Electric did so.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

poplar1

#10
354 diagram from TCI library:
http://telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/wiring-diagrams/western-electric/doc_details/2305-300-series-wall-telephones-354-tl

Unlike the 302, there are two slate-red leads on R of the dial in the 354 and 304..  If there two wires are not connected together, then there is no dial tone, unless you  provide another path from L2 on terminal block to RR on the induction coil.
For example, you can connect the line to L1 (red) and RR (green) rather than  L1 (red) and L2 (green).
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

MCCAFFRP

Hmm. Thanks guys. I will review my wiring - strange it could be wrong on both phones - but its possible. The 220 ohm resistor in the line had no effect. I tried it inline on the red and also in the green between the phone and the converter as mentioned in the article on TCI regarding pulse to tone converters.  http://www.telephonecollectors.info/telephony-101/07b%20TCI%20Article%20on%20Pulse-toTone%20Converters.pdf ( sorry about the long link) The guy doesnt mention specifically the dial hold features being a problem but does cover disabling the dial shunt.

I might try using the resistor again along with my additional wiring tests. When I mentioned disconnecting the wire from "R" I was referring to the only wire on R on the coil - which in my case goes through the F-1 handset to the dial. I will have to review all of this closer. I am encouraged by all of this, however I am not an "old Bell guy" so I cant easily spot a wiring mistake like some of you might be able to. It amazes me that the phones would work properly otherwise but could be wired many ways and still work. It will take me some time to review the schematic on the model 302 ( Mine is a C model) and also the 354 for comparison - because reports here have confirmed the dial hold features work properly. I have the diagrams from the telephonecollectors.info index for both phones.

poplar1

#12
I recedntly purchased a Dialgizmo and cannot get the *, #, hold or redial features to work. I am using a correctly wired 302 connected to a Panasonic 616 KSU.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

Quote from: poplar1 on October 27, 2015, 08:07:52 PM
I recedntly purchased a Dialgizmo and cannot get the *, #, hold or redial features to work. I am using a correctly wired 302 connected to a Panasonic 616 KSU.

Does it work after disconnecting (and isolating) the slate-red wire on dial terminal R ?

MCCAFFRP

Hello Unbeldi,
No, it does not work after isolating the slate red wire on the dial terminal R. I will test on the second phone and will post back.