AE 21 candlestick wiring problem

[Haf]

Hi, I need your help please. I've got an AE 21 candlestick wich was originally wired with a 5 conector cord to an magneto crank American Electric Monarch Ringer Box. Both are all original including first paint on the candlestick which I only cleaned, ok, maybe the dial is not original and was changed later but it's AE too.
At first, I didn't know that there were magneto crank ringer boxes for dial telephones, but the originally wiring diagram shows exactly this combination. But now I want to rewire the telephone to use at a (I believe modernised by WE at about 1951) 634 BA WE subset until a got an AE one..
I found a wiring diagram at the TCI page but the hookswitch wiring is different from mine. I've got one conection more than the diagram and were the Transmitter is should be the Nr. 7 cord and Transmitter and Nr. 5 cord should be at the same connection. What do I have to change or do I need another wiring diagram maybe?
And can I use the subset originally with 4 conductor cord only with three and leave out the black one or does this do any harm to subset or telephone?

Thanks for your help, Haf

[Haf]

I'm sorry for the many pics, but it's not easy for me to describe that technical stuff.

[AE_Collector]

Hello Haf and welcome to the Rotary Phone Forum.

The problem seems to be around side tone and anti-side tone phones and subsets thus the 4 or 5 conductor cords between phone and subset. I am not an expert in anyway on these as I don't have any of mine connected for use.

This topic comes up here though and when it does we usually need Stub of dsk's help. I would think that all or most AE 21 candlesticks would be for Anti-sidetone subsets. I would also assume that a Magneto subset is likely a sidetone subset.

It appears that your AE 21 may be arranged for a sidetone type subset since it is connected to a Magneto subset. Newer subsets would be anti-sidetone with 5 conductor cords and hooks switches.

I think that the ideal subset for the AE 21 would be the AE 32 type subset, the compact Bakelite one. I believe that an AE 21 is electrically equivalent to the AE 1A Monophone which would use the same AE Bakelite subset.

There is this topic on the forum about hooking these two items together. The problem here if I remember correctly was similar to your problem. An AE 1A designed for older side tone subsets so it only had a 4 connection hookswitch but it needed the newer 5 connection type to use with an anti-side tone subset.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=7004.0

Perhaps Stub or dsk can help figure out how your phone can be connected to your newer Western Electric subset to make it work. Or maybe you can get an AE anti-sidetone subset for your AE 21. That would be the perfect one.

Terry

[stub]

Haf,
       Welcome to the CRPF!! Nice AE 21 Desk stand! 5 hookswitch springs( contacts) is for anti-sidetone booster circuit. As Terry stated AE recommended using the AE Compact Type 32 subset with this phone. Here's all that I have on your phone minus the subset- pic 003           As for hooking it up to the WE subset, I won't have a clue. There are more WE people here that can help.  Sorry, I don't have the AE subset diagram.  stub

[Haf]

Hi AE_Collector and Stub,
thx for your reply.

5 hookswitch springs( contacts) is for anti-sidetone booster circuit

, glad if it would be so. And if, I think I could manage to connect this to the WE subset with a 4 conductor cord.
But- comparing the spring assembly on stub's hookswitch diagram and mine they seem to be quite different. First of all, I thought the anti-sidetone circuit started to exist later, maybe around mid 30's or so, correct me if I'm wrong. And I think the magneto subset originally belonging to my AE21 is maybe before 1929 (as I found a catalog for American Electric from 1929 with only concealed bell subsets). So there must have been another wiring- non anti seidetone - with the need of a 5 terminal hookswitch and a 5 connector cord between telephone and subset.
But how can I reassemble my hookswitch to be like the one on stub's diagram? Do I need another one, or can I just reassemble the springs by taking it apart or maybe only wire it different?

[G-Man]

Your ringer box and telephone set was not intended for use on standard loop dialing lines.

Notice that the dial is connected to ground through the switchook, with the other side going to both sides of the line through the center tap of the ringer coils.

As with a couple of other instruments that have surfaced on the list lately, yours was used on a composite/simplex dialing line that allowed for both magneto and automatic signaling.

Rural telephone companies located mostly in Canada were the primary users of these types of sets.

[G-Man]

I forgot to add that your instrument and magneto subset is probably worth much more than it being hacked into a more common loop dial instrument.

[dsk]

Hi, welcome.

It has been a pleasure to analyze your diagram.

This telephone is probably been designed for use on a rural system. I don't know much about the system, but please give it a try.

You have to put in a battery as it is made for, my guess is any 3V will be fine. E.g. 2 AA cells in series.

1) Put a capacitor rated at least 200V and of a value between 1 and 2.2 µF (A typical ringer capacitor)
between the G and L1 terminals.
2) Connect the line between G and L2
3) test it, And tell us how it turned out. How is the sound quality? Does the ringer ring when dialing?....



When everything is OK we should look at the line polarity. The dc current should make the receiver membrane be pulled, not pushed. If wrong, just swap the 2 wires.

dsk

[dsk]

The suggestion is based on using the wooden subset.
Just not changing anything at all.
Cranking the generator could harm the equipment in the other end of the line. Just loosening and bend away or tape the green wire to the generator frame would eliminate that risk.

This system is from my point of view so extremely rare, and should be kept as original as possible.

It may be some bell tinkle when dialing, but the quality of speech should be as good as the transmitter and receiver allows it to be.

dsk

[Haf]

Many thanks for you replays

first, I tried to reconnect everything like dsk suggested and, well, at least it's getting closer. If called the bell rings, sounds little bit "tired" but rings. Maybe it's only "tired" because supposed to be battery ringer. I don't have a dialing tone and, what telephones normally do, I don't hear any sound in the receiver when softly knock on the transmitter. But when called and offhooked ringing stops, so I suggest that maybe works. I recognized while reconnecting phone to ringer box that there is one cord connected different than shown in the diagram and the dial has only 4 wires (it's still like it was when got the system) but no jumper. Oh, btw, tested the receiver and transmitter separately at another phone, both work fine, loud and clear.

second,

I forgot to add that your instrument and magneto subset is probably worth much more than it being hacked into a more common loop dial instrument.

This system is from my point of view so extremely rare, and should be kept as original as possible.

I was afraid to hear that. Sounds strange, normally a collector should be happy if told that he got something special. In this case it's the opposite. I started with the idea to get the most common phones from the 1920/30's, originally planned to get a WE 51 AL (which I believe to be the most common candlestick telephone in bigger cities those days) and a WE wall phone fitting to the 51AL. Want them for daily use same as my 202 I use at the moment. I agree that things should kept as originally as possible and not changed or modernized, I like a maybe non absolute perfect patina more than a "better than new restoration", as you know, it's only original once. So when I bought the AE 21 with that magneto ringer box I planned to use the AE 21 and give away the magneto ringer box to some one with better need of it, not knowing that the AE 21 is not the standart one and can't be used without any changes except simple rewiring.
I now don't want, now that I know, to destroy this system of telephone and ringer box belonging together. But I want a telephone for use either. Don't really know what to do, even if I'll get it to work with your regarded help it is not what I was originally looking for. Have to fight a little conflict with myself

Haf

[dsk]

We can do that too. It is a nice desk stand.

Since it don't work with the wooden subset, its probably not wired according to the posted diagram.

These desk stands was made to be used with more than one type of subset so it should be possible to wire it to any subset you want.

So disconnect the cord between the subset and the wooden- box.  If you want to use the cord to disconnect it in the subset end.

Testing with a transmitter battery, or even a telephone line between the cords connected to, or the terminals 6&8  (if you don't use the cord)

Then you should hear yourselves, and the hook-switch should work.

If not we have to look at that wiring first.

dsk

PS you could end up with this.

[Haf]

mhh, very strange.  I hope that the phone wasn't wired correct before I disconnect all wires and now maybe mixed things up.

I tested what you told me connecting L1 and L2 to the phone but without disconnecting the subset.
6&8: no dial tone, slight knocking on the transmitter makes real weird sounds in the receiver
7&8: dial tone- yay, first time this telephone showed it's alive somehow- but nothing changes whatever I do, e.g. hook on off, dial whatever.
4&8: Dial tone when hooked off, and no dial tone when receiver is on the hook again. When dialing dial tone disappears but then silence and if then hooked on and off I got a busy tone which doesn't disappear unless I unplug line cord. When plugged in again, same as first, dial tone.

I'm confused, lol

ps, just noticed you edited your post, will test that too. Give me a minute or two

[dsk]

It is very easy to be confused, when English not my mothers tongue, its even easier to confuse 

If the DC path is right it should be like this, but may not be in the same order as listed.
From line 1 via primary winding to the hook sw, the transmitter the dial a new hook sw and back to line 2
The capacitor stops DC, but black should go to line 2 via one of the hook switches.
The receiver shall be connected between red and green. Since it is a hook sw available this i put in to make it possible to use the subset to another desk stand at the same time.

The dial connected to 7&8 just shorts the receiver to prevent loud clicking in the receiver when dialing.

dsk

[Haf]

Sorry that it took so long but now I tested to wire the telephone to the 634 BA subset like in your diagram. I disconnected the wooden magneto ringer box wires from the phone and afterwards took the 4 wired cord from the 634 BA subset. had to disconnect the 202 the take the cord but because the 202 works fine wiring should be correct at the subset. Result: No dialtone, when called the ringer box rings and stops when phone is hooked off but the  nothing, receiver and transmitter remain dead. My telephone is cursed, lol. No, more likely I'm not able do wire correct. Ok, the 4 conductor cord is wired correct, was easy, clear visible colors. Must be something wrong at the telephone wiring.

Argh... I had forgotten the jumper cable. Ok, result is different now. I've got a dial tone but it remains when dialing. When called ringing stops and I can hear but transmitter stays silent.

[dsk]

We are closer now. 

If you just remove the 2 wires from the dial to 7 and 8 and test.

You may get loud clicks in the receiver when dialing!

I have an idea of wrong wires there.

It seems to be right from the jumper, but please check, it should go just to the wire going directly to the transmitter, and nothing else at no 6.

dsk