Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Identification, Repair & Restoration => Technical "Stuff" => AE => Topic started by: Jack Ryan on September 07, 2016, 02:51:54 AM

Title: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: Jack Ryan on September 07, 2016, 02:51:54 AM
I have an early AE 80 and it is coded: 87 07 29 6 NF-9
I'm not sure how to decode that number. Can someone help?

The code looks more like a late AE 40 format code and I was wondering if the format of the code changed shortly after the introduction of the AE 80.

I don't see any dates but it looks like a standard early AE 80:
- Manual line compensation.
- Type 51A dial
- Alphanumeric number plate
- Straight line ringer
- Smelly plastic
- Chrome plungers

Thanks
Jack
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: unbeldi on September 07, 2016, 11:43:44 AM
I suppose the key to your answer will be to find out the meaning of an H-series type 80 telephone.
The US catalogs always refer to N, NB, NC, series sets, which don't seem to have an 87 type, except for the key sets.

The only obvious difference in this set, is the extra capacitor indicated across the DP contacts. No doubt for RF filtering.
Is that actually installed in the set?  It does not appear to be on the transmission unit board, but separate.



Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: unbeldi on September 07, 2016, 11:59:54 AM
Since your phone does not have the standard US dial face, no letters, I would assume that the H series was for certain export markets.
Where was it found ?
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: LarryInMichigan on September 07, 2016, 12:24:53 PM
For what it's worth, the dial center card is Australian, though it looks like someone added it later.  The phone may have been used on a PABX.

Larry
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: stub on September 07, 2016, 12:33:24 PM
This phone has the same early dial on AE two tone 80 that I have.
Here's a pic of the radio-suppressor type 51 dial used in 57 catalog  .stub
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: unbeldi on September 07, 2016, 02:00:43 PM
Quote from: stub on September 07, 2016, 12:33:24 PM
This phone has the same early dial on AE two tone 80 that I have.
Here's a pic of the radio-suppressor type 51 dial used in 57 catalog  .stub

What is the ordering code on the bottom of yours?
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: stub on September 07, 2016, 05:09:56 PM
unbeldi,
           Mine was black and was converted to two tone by someone who ordered a white shell and had to use the black plunger stop like the manual said to do.
Maybe Terry can find something in his database.   stub
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: Jack Ryan on September 07, 2016, 09:01:03 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on September 07, 2016, 11:59:54 AM
I suppose the key to your answer will be to find out the meaning of an H-series type 80 telephone.
The US catalogs always refer to N, NB, NC, series sets, which don't seem to have an 87 type, except for the key sets.

Yes but I haven't come across any H series documentation. I haven't seen an AE 40 or 50 in that series either.

Quote
The only obvious difference in this set, is the extra capacitor indicated across the DP contacts. No doubt for RF filtering.
Is that actually installed in the set?  It does not appear to be on the transmission unit board, but separate.

I haven't checked but usually that capacitor is within the dial case and comes as part of the dial.

Quote
Since your phone does not have the standard US dial face, no letters, I would assume that the H series was for certain export markets.
Where was it found ?

Does a numeric dial necessarily mean that the phone was an export model?

I got the phone off eBay in Australia but I have no idea how it came to be here. Some earlier Monophones were used by utilities and railways and some AE 40s were used during WW2 my military folk. I haven't seen AE 80s used here. AE telephones were not used by the PMG/Telecom/Telstra except for the black wooden residence set and the step based candlestick. Someone added the dial number card - it is not original.

The code used seems to be incompatible with what is listed in later catalogues but the circuit looks pretty much like the SATT A version of the standard circuit. The wiring colours are different but that standard changed too. The more recent circuit is D-230238-A

Jack


Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: Jack Ryan on September 07, 2016, 09:09:49 PM
Quote from: LarryInMichigan on September 07, 2016, 12:24:53 PM
For what it's worth, the dial center card is Australian, though it looks like someone added it later.  The phone may have been used on a PABX.

Larry

The number card is not original - someone added it.

The phone would not have been used on a PABX because such phones were PMG supplied and they didn't use AE telephones. It is possible it was used on a PAX but AE didn't have much of a presence in Australia. ATM was the face of AE and they didn't use AE equipment.

I think this is the first number only AE 80 I have seen in Australia but it may have been imported by a collector - I don't know.

Jack
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: Jack Ryan on September 07, 2016, 09:26:32 PM
Stub's phone is also numbers only and was (presumably) used in north America.

Here is another phone, (I suspect) older than Stub's but newer that the one originally posted. There is a progression of signature stampings on the base.

This one was used in the USA.

Jack
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: unbeldi on September 07, 2016, 10:26:31 PM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on September 07, 2016, 09:01:03 PM
Yes but I haven't come across any H series documentation. I haven't seen an AE 40 or 50 in that series either.

I haven't checked but usually that capacitor is within the dial case and comes as part of the dial.

Does a numeric dial necessarily mean that the phone was an export model?
No not all, of course.  Many independent companies in the US didn't use central office names.  But when DDD service was extended across the US, even independent companies that didn't have exchange names, might have used dials with letters, because customers needed to dial long distance numbers that way.  This would only be relevant starting about the time AE80 came out. Before the mid-50s DDD service was still very sparse.


Quote
I got the phone off eBay in Australia but I have no idea how it came to be here. Some earlier Monophones were used by utilities and railways and some AE 40s were used during WW2 my military folk. I haven't seen AE 80s used here. AE telephones were not used by the PMG/Telecom/Telstra except for the black wooden residence set and the step based candlestick. Someone added the dial number card - it is not original.

The code used seems to be incompatible with what is listed in later catalogues but the circuit looks pretty much like the SATT A version of the standard circuit. The wiring colours are different but that standard changed too. The more recent circuit is D-230238-A

Jack
Well, since the series letter doesn't start with N, like all the other example posted here, and which is what the US catalogs show, the rest of the number probably shouldn't even be contemplated in the same framework, with the exception of the first 8, which was common for all AE 80 with N.  The second letter was already a feature code. So, H 87, is not an AE 87.
Perhaps it was simply a contract number or project number of some sort, like the many D-numbers on WECo sets for special customers.


Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: Jack Ryan on September 07, 2016, 11:55:26 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on September 07, 2016, 10:26:31 PM
Well, since the series letter doesn't start with N, like all the other example posted here, and which is what the US catalogs show, the rest of the number probably shouldn't even be contemplated in the same framework, with the exception of the first 8, which was common for all AE 80 with N.  The second letter was already a feature code. So, H 87, is not an AE 87.
Perhaps it was simply a contract number or project number of some sort, like the many D-numbers on WECo sets for special customers.

Previously, a change of letter indicated a change of code standard but the market remained the same. Without more information, we're not going to know.

Jack
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: AE_Collector on September 08, 2016, 01:20:57 AM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on September 07, 2016, 02:51:54 AM
I have an early AE 80 and it is coded: 87 07 29 6 NF-9

The code looks more like a late AE 40 format code and I was wondering if the format of the code changed shortly after the introduction of the AE 80.

I have noted in the past that very early 80 sets sometimes have coding on the base that is quite similar to the 40's and 50's. So I had come to the conclusion that the code format was revised sometime soon after the 80's were introduced. Some early 80's have a year and month date stamped on them with the month being about 3 letters long. Other than military sets, AE 40/50 sets never had a date on them. The new revised 80/90 coding finally included a date though it was in a numbers only format.

I have no idea what the H represents but keep in mind that 40/50 sets can begin with L just as often as N and I think there are P's used as well. I wonder if the 40/50 coding when transferred to the first new 80 sets dropped the 40 (or 50) part of the numbers and didn't replace them with 80 so in this case the 87 might really be the equivalent of 4087 but on an 80 set. Not that I have any idea what 4087 or 8087 would represent but maybe that is what is happening with the codes on this set.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: unbeldi on September 08, 2016, 07:52:06 AM
Quote from: AE_Collector on September 08, 2016, 01:20:57 AM
Other than military sets, AE 40/50 sets never had a date on them.


AE 40s made in Northlake in 1958 had dates stamped on them.
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: AE_Collector on September 08, 2016, 11:33:11 AM
I don't think they were ever dated from Brockville. By 1958 the 80's being manufactured were being dated so I guess Northlake did it on the last of the 40's they made as well. That was about when Northlake opened wasn't it?

Terry
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: unbeldi on September 08, 2016, 11:58:52 AM
Quote from: AE_Collector on September 08, 2016, 11:33:11 AM
I don't think they were ever dated from Brockville.
I don't know, but probably not.

Quote
By 1958 the 80's being manufactured were being dated so I guess Northlake did it on the last of the 40's they made as well. That was about when Northlake opened wasn't it?
Yes, Northlake apparently opened in 1957.

See here for date stamp on AE 40 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=14784.msg153315#msg153315)
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: AE_Collector on September 08, 2016, 12:11:28 PM
The date format on your 40 is exactly the same format that they settled on for the AE 80's. I guess they played with it a bit before settling on a date format that ultimately lasted from late 50's through to about 1975.

It seems somewhat surprising that they continued making Bakelite 40's after moving into the new Northlake plant when 80's were already in full production. If they still needed small quantities of 40's they could have brought them from AE Canada. On the other hand the new 80's still had Bakelite handsets initially so they were still molding Bakelite and already owned all the equipment so I guess they just moved it to the new plant and carried on with production.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: AE_Collector on January 13, 2017, 10:53:59 PM
One of the AE47's in my AE Base Code Excel record quite closely matches your oddly numbered AE80. It is H870 661-3 and then has the new format date code 8-57-8. It is a Chicago 7 phone not a Northlake phone. Same month that AE's Head Office address changed from Chicago 7 to Northlake. Manufacturing may have already been moved to Northlake or would be moving over the next few months.

I assumed that the 87xx numbering was some quirk of 47 sets preparing to change over to the new 87 sets but now it looks as though H87xxx coded sets might be similar to the Z coded sets that have codes that don't fit the normal pattern. Maybe phones with the RFI suppressor built into the dial?

I have records for 10 different 47 sets. One H 870661-3 set, one N4020 B0 RO1 set, two L4106 ESL XAC sets, four L4111 ASL sets, two Z22749 A1 BU sets and one Z23615 1 ON8 set.

From an ordering manual for the AE47 (see picture) it mentions these two relay accessories that both begin with H88 so it seems that H8xx numbers are special assemblies.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: unbeldi on January 14, 2017, 08:11:11 AM
Quote from: AE_Collector on January 13, 2017, 10:53:59 PM
I have records for 10 different 47 sets. One H 870661-3 set, one N4020 B0 RO1 set, two L4106 ESL XAC sets, four L4111 ASL sets, two Z22749 A1 BU sets and one Z23615 1 ON8 set.


Seems to me that perhaps the N4020 had its base plate replaced. I suppose it could be possible to not have a dial (B0) on a two or three-line telephone, but really?    4020 is a fairly common code on standard single line sets.
Title: Re: AE 80 with a code "87"
Post by: AE_Collector on January 15, 2017, 01:42:41 AM
I will have to take a closer look at it to see if there is any evidence of a baseplate swap. As we know, anything is possible!

Terry