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1915 40AL Sniff Test

Started by Grabart, February 03, 2016, 07:08:52 PM

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Grabart

Good evening,

I came across this phone tonight, and thought I would ask the experts before I made an offer.  This is purported to be a 1915 40AL phone, and while I've read on other posts on here that it would have originally been painted so understand that it would need to be painted, I wonder if the remainder of the description passes the sniff test.

Thanks for any guidance.  I think I just need what in ham radio terms is an Elmer :)

The seller's description:

Antique western electric candlestick with earlier rotary dial brass and Barry black finish type 295 ringer box with "bulldog" transmitter 1915 model 40 AL.  THIS WAS THE EARLIEST DESK PHONE. WORKS GREAT APPRAISES FOR $325.



Scott

rdelius

#1
Watch out, dial base might be a repro.The 40 AL was a non dial set with a steel base and stem with a parkerising type finish Bower Bariff (not spelled correctly).A brass stem would not be on a 40 AL set
Bulldog transmitters were later,this is not a bulldog. 1915 is not when these were introduced

andre_janew

I've heard of a sniff test for soft plastic telephones(they smell cheesy), but never one for candlestick phones.  Did they make reproduction parts for these out of soft plastic?

Grabart

Quote from: rdelius on February 03, 2016, 07:40:20 PM
Watch out, dial base might be a repro.The 40 AL was a non dial set with a steel base and stem with a parkerising type finish Bower Bariff (not spelled correctly).A brass stem would not be on a 40 AL set
Bulldog transmitters were later,this is not a bulldog. 1915 is not when these were introduced

Thank you, that's exactly what I was looking for.

Quote from: andre_janew on February 03, 2016, 07:53:13 PM
I've heard of a sniff test for soft plastic telephones(they smell cheesy), but never one for candlestick phones.  Did they make reproduction parts for these out of soft plastic?

Sorry about that.  I didn't mean a literal sniff test, but rather: An informal reality check of an idea or proposal, using one's common sense or sense of propriety.

Scott

NorthernElectric

Quote from: Grabart on February 03, 2016, 08:41:02 PMI didn't mean a literal sniff test, but rather: An informal reality check of an idea or proposal, using one's common sense or sense of propriety.

I got the 'sniff test' analogy.  You wanted to know if it was crap.   :D
Cliff

Sargeguy

40-AL s were not made of brass, and they were not painted.  The shaft and (non-dial) base were made of steel with a Bower-Barf finish. 
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
TCI /ATCA #4409

wds

The perches on the 40AL were brass, but not the stem and base.  Also, the 40's were painted black over the Bower-Barf finish.  I think people have stripped off the black paint on a lot of them just like they do on the brass phones.  It's more of a challenge to find the black ones on the Ebay than it is to find the ones that have  been stripped.
Dave

WEBellSystemChristian

Quote from: wds on February 05, 2016, 10:57:18 AM
The perches on the 40AL were brass, but not the stem and base.  Also, the 40's were painted black over the Bower-Barf finish.  I think people have stripped off the black paint on a lot of them just like they do on the brass phones.  It's more of a challenge to find the black ones on the Ebay than it is to find the ones that have  been stripped.
I actually have a 40AL that was never painted black. The Bower-Barff finish doesn't have any paint in any crevices, and the switchhook and perch were painted Gray to match.
Christian Petterson

"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right" -Henry Ford

unbeldi

#8
Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on February 05, 2016, 11:25:11 AM
I actually have a 40AL that was never painted black. The Bower-Barff finish doesn't have any paint in any crevices, and the switchhook and perch were painted Gray to match.

I believe this to be the correct original finish of a 1040 deskstand.
The 40-type appeared sometime between 1923 and 1925  (not 1915, btw!) and the catalogs expressly describe it as being a steel desk stand having a Bower-Barff finish.  The finish is what the user sees.
This agrees with many descriptions of them as being gray-ish in color.

The 1051 desk stand came out about the same time and its finish was described as black.

Interestingly, in the late 1920s some 1051 deskstands were also described as having the Bower-barff finish, but at least my 51s are not made of a ferromagnetic metal.  Perhaps that description was a printing error.

I would think any black-painted 1040s were refurbished that way to look new.

wds

#9
Could be, but I"ve had several 40al's with factory black paint ( and the bower finish).  You can always tell the difference between factory paint and refurbs.  Maybe they came both ways? 
Dave

unbeldi

Quote from: wds on February 05, 2016, 01:07:23 PM
Could be, but I"ve had several 40al's with factory black paint ( and the bower finish).  You can always tell the difference between factory paint and refurbs.  Maybe they came both ways?

How would you know that the paint was from the factory?

I think the only way to ascertain that is to get an instrument in the original factory packaging.

wds

Many factors - the original paint has a color and sheen that I've never been able to duplicate, and have never seen anyone else duplicate it.  Also, there's always tell-tale signs of being repainted such as overspray.   Repaints always chip and scratch much easier than factory paint.  I always prefer a scratched up original painted phone to a new paint job.  Same with nickel plating.    Although there are times when the phone is in such bad shape that you have no choice but to refinish it. 
Dave

unbeldi

#12
I think it would indeed be hard to exactly duplicate the painting, or actually Japanning, results of that period today or almost any time later. We don't know actually what the finishes looked like fresh from the assembly line, nor what the refurbished finishes looked like at first.

In any case, I don't see a reason why a refurbished piece cannot look painted as 'professionally' perfect as a new piece, lest the surface has defects from usage.  I have seen painted plastic telephones and I had no clue, despite examination, that the part was painted, until I accidentally rubbed it with a solvent cloth.

Doug Rose

I have a 40AL with Bower-Barf  finish on the base and stem and the rest painted to match. No black anywhere as Christian stated. I also have a Bulldog with brass cup, hook and perch clearly marked 40AL, which looks really sharp IMHO.

My opinion only... the base and stem were Bower-Barf finished, the rest were brass painted to match.

Has anyone ever see the cup, hook and perch with Bower-barf finish. My guess is they were made by WE for sale with the Bower-Barf finish and painted brass to match. Just my humble opinion. ...Doug
Kidphone

Jack Ryan

The brass parts were japanned. Bower Barf cannot be applied to brass as it is a reduced form of iron. In the UK, a different oxide was applied to these brass parts. It was black oxide - a cupric oxide I think.

Jack