Author Topic: D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition  (Read 415 times)

Offline rp2813

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D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition
« on: December 02, 2021, 11:16:54 PM »
Hello to all!  It's been quite a while since I've posted anything here.  I moved, I had some health issues (all good now) but it appears my 554-C subset has developed issues of its own.  It has been connected with a 1931 D1 in the phone niche of my 1922 home for some time, ringing and dialing out as it should, but recently I was informed that callers trying to reach me on my land line were getting busy signals even though I have Call Waiting.

The first thing I did was disconnect the 554-C and voila, the off hook condition cleared.  I decided to switch out the dial set for a manual  (the niche is located in a hallway where I'd never initiate anything more than a test call), thinking that maybe I'd figure out what was wrong in the process.  I wired the mounting cord for the manual D1 per the diagram here and got dial tone.  Great!  Except when I used my cell to call my land line, I got a busy signal.  The problem remains.  I changed out the line cord and it made no difference.  I've checked connections in the subset and found them to be secure with none contacting anything they shouldn't be. 

I'm thinking the trouble lies with the subset, but didn't find a discussion on the troubleshooting board about this specific problem and I don't know what would have triggered it.  Any suggestions on how to diagnose this?  I have a 684-C but can't put my hands on it.  I'll keep digging around for it, but I would really like to figure out what's wrong with the 554-C anyway -- presuming it really is the source of the problem.

Thanks for any help.  It's a drag finally having a niche but not having a working phone in it.

Ralph

Offline FABphones

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Re: D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2021, 04:15:11 AM »
… I had some health issues (all good now)…

…It's a drag finally having a niche but not having a working phone in it.

Welcome back. Glad to read you are on the mend.

You have a phone niche? Photos please - thread here:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=25724

 :)
A collector of  'Monochrome Phones with Sepia Tones'   ...and a Duck!
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Vintage Phones - 10% man made, 90% Tribble
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Offline poplar1

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Re: D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2021, 09:45:44 AM »
554C has two capacitors. The one for the ringer may be shorted out. Try disconnecting one of the ringer wires temporarily.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline rp2813

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Re: D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2021, 02:20:13 PM »
Thanks Pop, I will try that and report back.  I don't mind if the ringer has to be disabled.  It's right outside my bedroom and can wake the dead. 

FAB, there is a picture of my niche in in an old thread.  It shows the phone I'm trying to hook up there.  I found a vintage 1947 brown woven mounting cord for it on eBay just recently.  I came across the thread as I was combing through the troubleshooting discussions last night.  I made it to page 25, which is only about 1/4 of the way through.  It will be easier to find it in my picture files, so will do that soon.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 03:26:54 PM by rp2813 »
Ralph

Offline rp2813

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Re: D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2021, 03:19:48 PM »
OK, disabling the ringer didn't change anything.  That this situation presented itself without ever opening up the subset or interfering in any way with the wiring from the jack or the phone's mounting cord suggests it's an internal problem with the subset.  I have a 5302 that's hooked up to the same dual modular jack that the subset uses, and the 5302 works fine. 

Since the manual phone has the identical problem that the dial set did, it's hard not to point the finger at the subset.  I wonder if the ringer jarred something loose elsewhere in the subset.  I'm not averse to substituting circuitry inside the D1 base that will make it work without a subset.  I used to have such a board, but I think it got lost in the move.  It's not in my parts box.  If anyone knows where I can get one, that may be the best solution.  I located my 634-BC subset last night (not a 684 as I mistakenly referred to it in the OP).  I've been planning to mount it on one of the floor joists in the basement to run my manual space saver.  That ringer will certainly be heard upstairs.

I'm still open to any other suggestions before declaring my pristine 554-C non-viable.  If the ringer assembly from the 634 can be switched out just for testing, I'm willing to try that.  It appears to be identical to the ringer on the 554.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 03:28:27 PM by rp2813 »
Ralph

Offline poplar1

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Re: D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2021, 12:37:42 AM »
Not sure what the problem is. Does the subset busy out the line even with no phone connected to it?

In the diagram, it appears that the other condenser (the one connected to L2 and C), if shorted, would also make busy the line. Do you have a spare 195A condenser from a 302?

This subset was originally designed for the 50-C or 51-C desk stand (candlestick). The ringer was in series with a normally closed pair of contacts. So with a 102 (or 202 with the black mtg. cord lead not used), you would have to connect the ringer to L2 and RR rather than L2 and B (or strap B and RR).

(per BSP C63.374 i3 in TCI library)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2021, 12:46:59 AM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline rp2813

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Re: D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2021, 01:24:25 AM »
Well this is interesting.  I disconnected all of the manual desk set's leads and now there's no busy signal and the subset rings.  That is without changing the ringer leads which have been on L1 and RR for the past several years with the dial set hooked up.  Is there any need to switch the one L1 lead over to L2?

This has me wondering what caused the busy signal when neither the dial set or the subset had been touched, knocked around, banged into or anything else.  Does the ringing subset without a phone attached implicate the condenser?  I have some 302s that I can pull a condenser from if that should be my next course of action.

Thanks for the excellent coaching on this.  i'm not feeling so hopeless now.
Ralph

Offline poplar1

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Re: D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2021, 01:45:24 AM »
If the ringer is connected to L1 and RR, then the capacitor for the ringer should be on L2 and RR. (Thus, the ringer is in series with the capacitor.)

Is the other capacitor (talk capacitor) connected to L2 and C?

And you need only 3 conductors from the phone to the subset since this is a sidetone subset:

Red to R
Green to GN
Yellow to L2/Y
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline rp2813

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Re: D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2021, 02:46:41 AM »
It works! 

I don't know why, but for some reason I had made a note that the yellow lead from the phone terminated on C.  I guess I had looked at too many diagram scenarios.  This still doesn't explain why the dial set was creating the busy condition, but I'm not going to try to figure that one out.  I never should have entertained the thought that at 90 years old, a WeCO product could have possibly failed.

Capacitor wiring was correct, so only the yellow mounting cord lead was wrongly placed.  The sidetone isn't nearly as bad with the manual's F1 handset as it was with the dial set's E1, which is retrofitted with an F1 transmitter but still has its funky 4/30 receiver element.

Pop, thanks a million for your expert help.  The phone niche is back in business!
Ralph

Offline poplar1

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Re: D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2021, 11:11:59 AM »
Was the black wire from either 202 connected in the subset? If so, where?

"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline rp2813

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Re: D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2021, 03:18:51 PM »
Yes and Yes. 

Per my notations, the black lead from the dial set was on GND, which I interpret as unused, and the yellow was on Y, which shares its terminal with L2, right? 

From the manual set, I had the black lead on L2 and the yellow was on C.  I don't know how I arrived at that configuration, but there was some guesswork involved since there's no diagram for the 554-C.

I don't think the dial set's mounting cord was miswired since it worked fine for several years, but it's puzzling why it suddenly made busy.



Ralph

Offline rp2813

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Re: D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2021, 01:40:30 AM »
One thing I have noticed since resolving the receiver-off-hook issue is that there's a loud click when I lift or replace the handset.  I found a few threads on this topic but none were specific to a manual D1.  A common suggestion was to examine the pile-up or remove the green mounting cord lead from the subset as a test, but I'm not clear on what the green lead test indicates.

Will this loud click eventually wreck the receiver element?  I hear no click at all on my 5302 when I lift the handset and keep the plunger depressed until I have the receiver to my ear.  I know that's kind of an apples and oranges comparison, but it does indicate that the loud click is specific to the manual D1.  Currently those are the only vintage phones I have working in the house.  The remaining one is a Panasonic cordless. 

I'm wondering if the problem may lie with the 554-C subset.  IIRC, the dial set I had connected to it made a similar loud click, but there were no loud clicks when the finger wheel returned.  I doubt that both the dial set and the manual have identical issues with their switch piles. 

Ralph

Offline poplar1

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Re: D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2021, 04:41:31 AM »
I would take a working 302 and use the base as a subset for testing. Troubleshooting possibly two problems (554C and 202) at the same time, for me, would be difficult.

Removing the green wire from a working subset/302 base should not cause a click in the receiver because the line is not yet disconnected. Similarly, if the sequence of the hookswitch opening is correct -- GN and W contacts  opening before Y and black -- this is the same as removing the green wire from the subset. (Also the same when the BB and W dial contacts open before the Y and BK dial pulse contacts.)

Using a 302 base with a 202 (round or oval with 4-conductor mounting cord), connect the black capacitor wire to spare terminal GND along with the black mounting cord wire. Connect Green mtg. cord to GN on 101A induction coil, red to R on ind coil, yellow to L2Y.

Using a 302 base with a 102 (round or oval base with 3-conductor coil), the black condenser wire has to be connected to L2Y. Then mtg. cord to R, GN, and YL2. However, this is not advisable for permanent use if there are any other extensions on the same line.*

A 534A or 295A or 584A sidetone subset will support multiple 20ALs, 50ALs, 51ALs, and 102s on the same subset. When the 684A antisidetone subset was introduced, it became necessary to have one anti-sidetone subset per hand telephone set (202, 211) or per 151AL desk stand.

I don't know about the 554C, since it was originally designed for message rate service, "party on tip" (ringer connected to tip side of line and ground), for proper automatic billing, with 50C desk stand, 51C desk stand, or 103 hand telephone set. These sets have extra contacts in the hookswitch that have the ringer connected to the line when phone is on hook, but have the ringer connected with high resistance to ground when off-hook so that the central office billing equipment can detect this condtion in order to bill the message rate calls to the correct party (tip party).


*[Now, I wonder why the 554C is any different (restricting to only one station per line) since the talk capacitor is permanently connected to L2 and C.] (Where is member dsk?)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 05:13:21 AM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline rp2813

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Re: D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2021, 03:38:02 PM »
Thanks for the 302 base suggestion.  I don't have just a base so I'd need to disconnect everything going to the case components, right?

I just lifted the handset on the D1 again, and really the click isn't as loud as it seemed last night.  It may just be how things are.  I don't think it's loud enough to be hurting the receiver or transmitter.

If I do decide to pursue this, the 5302 is right around the corner, so that would be a convenient 302 base to use for testing.

After the success with the manual D1, I've decided to activate the manual space-saver in the basement with the 634-BC.  I had that rig connected above the bench in the workshop at my previous home and it's all set to go.  It will save running upstairs to answer a call.  It's an older model designed for an E1 handset but currently has an F1.  I noticed some wear marks on the F1's grip and cap due to the improper fit, and it appears the spacer on the E1 prevents that so I think it's time to shop for one.
Ralph

Offline MMikeJBenN27

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Re: D1/554-C Suddenly Creating Off Hook Condition
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2021, 04:26:11 PM »
From what I have experienced, your condenser is failing.  Replacing it should fix the "click" problem.

Mike