Getting Started: Tools for Dials

[Slal]

Hi everyone,

Before I buy an old rotary 'as is' will need the tools to fix them first.  Otherwise putting cart before horse & risk having 'Western Electric Rotary Doorstop.'

Here's workstation for analog electronics.



From another topic, gathered a tester such as a BK 1045 or 1050 a good idea.  But at the end, one member generously offers to sell OP a tester he doesn't use.  Another member seems to end by saying BK or RS testers really aren't that useful-- homemade testers & computer software the only real way to calibrate or troubleshoot.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11199.0

Bottom line:  Given what I have, what other tools (or computer software) am I going to need to troubleshoot & work on the dials?

thx

--Bruce

[TelePlay]

I'm sure many others will contribute here but I'd say the basic basics for the phone tech novice are a DVM and a ring generator of some sort (20 or 30 Hz at 70 to 90 VAC). That's all I use, and Audacity on my lap top if I need to check a dial's pulse rate, along with asking questions on the forum about not working issues. A digital storage oscilloscope can be used, if you have one, to check pulse rate, and possible other stuff.


xzzx - audacity -xzzx

[Phonesrfun]

Historically, adjusting dials has been something that can typically be done with no equipment at all.  Just being able to gauge how fast the dial is going is pretty easy. and that has been the biggest part.  Most dials come from the factory with pile-ups that meet the make/break ratio without any adjustment, and the receiving equipment at the other end has been pretty forgiving about absolutes.

I have worked on phones as a hobby all my adult life and I am in my 60's.  I have never needed one, and so I don't have one.  I cannot think of a time when I have had a dial that was so out of specs that it didn't work, or could not be coaxed into working.

I have sold very few of my phones.  I suppose that a person who is refurbishing and reselling phones should have something on hand to calibrate dials so they will work on a wide variety of phone systems, and not just the one the seller uses.  I believe today, a seller's biggest fear is that a phone that works perfectly at his or her house will not dial out where it gets shipped, and becomes a return or a bone of contention between the buyer and the seller.  Sometimes it is not a matter of adjustment at all.  Some VoIP/Cable/DSL "land lines" won't even take dial pulsing at all any more.  A novice doesn't know the difference.  They see a jack on the wall and figure any old phone will work.  Today, that is not necessarily true.

It used to be that the phone companies had standards in all things.  Dial tolerances were part of that.  You could have a dial that did everything between 8 or 9 pps to 12 pps and be OK.  Some would even allow as high as 20pps.

You would think that with the ability to program the newer electronic systems, including central offices and cable and DSL ATA's that some bright young engineer would have been able to program pulse dialing for a range of tolerances.  Apparently not.  Someone got a hold of specs that says a dial is to pulse at a rate of 10 pps and have a certain make/break ratio and that's what they programmed in.  Either they missed the boat because they did not take into consideration the need for tolerances when dealing with mechanical dials on the other end, or they were just to cheap to pay the extra programming money for something that is not used very much by the public.

So, unless you already have the equipment and unless you plan on going into the business of refurbishing phones and selling them, I would not get a piece of equipment just yet.  See where you get by adjusting manually in the rare case that you need to adjust at all.

[Phonesrfun]

One other thing:

Some have made the mistake of over-refurbishing.  For example, taking a switch or dial pile-up apart into all the individual springs and spacers and insulators. Don't be tempted to do that.  Give them a good cleaning with contact cleaner and leave it at that.  Never use an abrasive tool such as a file or emery cloth or sandpaper to clean the contacts.  The precious metals comprising the tips will be compromised and the switch will not work well from that point on.

In the rare case where disassembling the dial pile-up works and the hobbyist is able to get it back together, THEN calibration is probably needed for the make/break ratio.

Just stay away from the temptation to rebuild the switches.  This includes hookswitches.  They all look simple enough, but they will get you in trouble every time.  Even after taking copious close-up shots with the camera before-hand.

And, please, I am not just some old senile codger saying this.  This is the voice of experience.  I can, and I have reassembled these, but they are all difficult and sometimes need more hands and fingers than one has.

[dsk]

What Bill says are probably good enough for the most of us. I did really not know about my dial problems before I started to measure .  All my telephones has been accepted by the pots line, or may sxs or Panasonic 616. So they are good enough for me.

I have read about problems on some ip telephony adapters, but mine does not understand pulse at all

But we are doing this for fun, or??? So measuring was more for fun and learning, and I don't need more the n my PC and audacity.

So Bill your way are probably OK, the other are optional.

dsk

[DavePEI]

From another topic, gathered a tester such as a BK 1045 or 1050 a good idea.  But at the end, one member generously offers to sell OP a tester he doesn't use.  Another member seems to end by saying BK or RS testers really aren't that useful-- homemade testers & computer software the only real way to calibrate or troubleshoot.

Well, unfortunately, that isn't really what that topic was saying. There is a tendency for someone who doesn't have one to decry them  - but if you have a need for one, there is nothing more useful. So, if you have enough workload to make it worth it, and if you can get one cheaply, they are wonderful tools.

Now, I gave away my RS tester, but only because I had a BK unit also and the RS was surplus to my needs.

They are not designed to set the timing of dials, only to check that they operate within a pre-set range. Generally of a dial passes their test, it will work on a POTS line. However, if you are using it on a VOIP line, those are very picky, and it may not.

Unless you are having problems with a dial, don't do anything to it. It is rare that a dial needs anything more than a cursory cleaning and lubrication. If it is filthy, an ultrasonic cleaner will allow you to do a reasonable cleaning of the dial without disassembly - don't forget to re-lubricate the dial sparingly once you are done. Don't use anything rougher than a plain piece of Kraft paper soaked in contact cleaner to clean between contacts. Never use anything abrasive and don't disassemble the dial as Bill said. But in 90% of dial problems, ultrasonic cleaning and lubrication will fix their woes. Once again, do that only if the dial shows problems.

http://www.islandregister.com/phones/ultrasonic.html

To adjust dials, nothing beats a triggered sweep oscilloscope, or a digital alternative. It makes no sense if you already have a good oscilloscope to get audacity and a tone generator to do the tests. The scope is the today's Gold standard.

Just a matter of using the correct tool for the correct job. If you don't do any repairs, you don't need any tools.

You have the basic tools that will be needed to start. Add a ring generator/line simulator/[panasonic KSU or phone tester [any of the above], pliers, screwdrivers, spade crimper, and you should be able to perform 90% ot the repairs you will come across.

Insofar as checking you dial timing using the dial is concerned, all you need to do is take the calibration voltage of the scope and run it to the switch contacts, then the other side of the switching contacts back to either channel of your scope. You will be able to determine the timing from the scope display. All you will need to do that are a couple of clip leads.

Dave

[Matilo Telephones]

I do not have much testing equipment. I do my basic testing by comparing it with a dial I once calibrated for timing as precisely as I could and compare the timing of dialing 0 with that dial. Just dial the dial under repairs/refurb and the bench mark dial at the same time.

That works for about 99% of telephones.

For desperate cases I have an old impulse writer made by Siemens. The problem with that is that it use a strip of paper with a white chalky substance. The supply of that is very limited. I haven´t been able to find new rolls of that. So I use it only when needed very badly. It writes make break ratio and not only the pulses but also the other swithes are inscribed. There is a scale on the strip, so you can read off the timing of the pulses. A very comprehensive instrument.

Aside from the tools Dave mentioned (screwdriver, pliers, etc) I use a couple of other tools on almost every dial I refurbish. I do not have an ultrasonic cleaner yet. So these may be a good alternative.

- 2 inch paintbrush, for dusting
- medium toothbrush for cleaning teeth
- toothpicks for cleaning nooks and crannies
- an oiling pin for applying very small amounts of oil in the right places

I´ve worked on about 100 dials through the years and I try to leave them as much in 1 piece as I can. Dust, brush, oil, wipe, preferably no more. After that most dials running too slow and making scraping and grinding sounds suddenly work perfectly and sound very smooth.

Sometimes it is unavoidable to take one apart. Because otherwise you cannot clean it, replace a certain broken part or when you make a mistake and screw something up.

[Slal]

Good to hear. 

From Bill's reply & everyone else's-- sounds like I got the wrong impression from the topic to start with.  (That dials were a fairly common problem-- even on a POT line.) 

Good to know that since it's just a hobby & not selling them-- don't need to worry about dials other than careful cleaning and lubrication.

(Assuming oil for mechanical clocks suitable for this.  If not let me know.)

Anyway, if *do* run into trouble with a dial hopefully Dave's schematic for scope will give me a start & can always ask here.  *Then* if additional equipment needed cross that bridge when I come it.

Thanks again & enjoy week.

--Bruce

[DavePEI]

Hi Bruce:

I kind of thought you got the impression dial problems were commonplace. The most common problem is when the dial's lubrication dries out and the dial needs possible cleaning and re-lubrication. Watch oil works well, as it doesn't attract dust. Kind of makes sense - dials are clockwork - and so are watches...

But moat phones you will get won't need anything dome to the dial - if they run unevenly, clean and oil hem. If it still won't work after that, that is when you need to investigate further. What I use mostly is Moebius watch oil. Other light synthetic oils which resist drying out will work well, also.

Dave

[Matilo Telephones]

I do sell them, by the way. Never get any complaints about dialproblems. But I do test the phone extensively before delivery.

Clock oil or watch oil is also thinner than normale machine oil. The lower viscosity also makes the clockwork run smoother. Less friction. For a dial that is not a great issue, but for a clockwork that runs for days and days al little extra friction can make a big difference.

[DavePEI]

Hi Bruce:

In order of expectations of "need for repair", I have made up a little list which will give you a bit better idea of repairs you can expect on older phones. Of course, this isn't a hard and fast "factoid", but it will give you an idea of what to expect...

1) Damaged plastic/bakelite
2) Missing spade lugs/modular plugs
3) Bad cords, handset and line.
4) Ringers requiring re-wiring due to a phone previously wired for party lines)
5) Bad receiver or transmitter elements
6) Dial needing cleaning/relubrication
7) Dial needing repair/adjustment

So you can see chances of having to do major dial work are low on the list.

So, given the above, here is a suggested tool kit.

1) Very fine emery cloth, Novus (or other) plastic polish) Cloth wipes.
2) Crimping tool for spades, crimping tool for modular jacks, spare spades and jacks
3) DVM (best if it also has a capacitor function such as available on many Flukes)
4) Fine oil, toothpicks to apply.
5) A few clip leads
6) General tools which you likely already have, small pliers. needlenose, side cutters, screwdrivers, particularly good fitting slot and phillips bits. Don''t try to use "budget" screwdrivers - the better ones have bits which not only are formed better, but which also are stronger).
7) Soldering iron and rosin core solder (temerature controlled is better).
8 ) Perhaps some day add an Ultrasonic cleaner and buffer (buffer can be built yourself using a used appliance motor, and reduced in speed by selecting pulleys so that speed is kept to close to 1000 RPM to reduce burning and melting of plastic).

(above, see: http://www.islandregister.com/phones/buffing.html )

9) Paperclip or dial removal tool,  and a pair of strap wrenches for removing handset caps.

Beyond that, add tools on an "add as you need" basis. One doesn't need to spend a fortune on tools, and they can be added as needed (unless you are a tool nut such as me who has to have one of everything )

There are many of us who delight in finding the worst piece of junk we can find and turning them into a thing of beauty. At first, select phones which don't appear to need a whole lot of repairs - as your experience increases, you can add as needed.

The main thing is have fun. Soon you will enjoy the challenge of fixing up those ugly dogs!

Dave 

[Slal]

Thanks for "problems" list & suggested tools.  Like the bump cap in photo btw.  Still out in the field, or "hung that hat up" long time ago?

Don't have an ESR or DVM with caps function.  If buy anything might get one.  Usually if a cap is leaking or suspect-- replace it anyway.  One of those things been putting off because don't know how often I'd use it.  Be nice to have in tool box of course.

And yes-- always picking up hand held tools. ; ) Old medical/dental instruments very useful for electronics.  Assume same with phones. 

Forgot to ask if computer software is shareware or how pricy.  Just curious.  Don't plan on going into business with phones, but can fully understand why work on dials might be necessary if you're a seller like Matilo who might have to deal with VoIP issues, crabby customers, etc.

So sounds like I'm OK with clock oil & tools. 

BTW: am now proud owner of an AE-83 (w/o ringer box) I won by accident on the ebay.  (Will be posting topic about it on that forum.)  Probably be back on tech forum if run into problems.  This will be the first project where phone may or may not be DoA.  If reading diagram correctly telco lines connect at #'s 1 & 2 so will be interesting to see.

thx

--Bruce

[DavePEI]

Thanks for "problems" list & suggested tools.  Like the bump cap in photo btw.  Still out in the field, or "hung that hat up" long time ago?

Don't have an ESR or DVM with caps function.  If buy anything might get one.  Usually if a cap is leaking or suspect-- replace it anyway.  One of those things been putting off because don't know how often I'd use it.  Be nice to have in tool box of course.

And yes-- always picking up hand held tools. ; ) Old medical/dental instruments very useful for electronics.  Assume same with phones.

Hi Bruce:

Actually, the cap was bought on eBay,,, I never actually worked for a Telco, though for a short while many  moons ago worked for a contractor installing an AE step switch in a Brockville, Ontario school. But always had the interest and been playing with phones for a good 50 years now, ever since I was a kid growing up in Brockville.

When you go looking for a DVM with a capacitive function, don't overlook some of the Chinese imports. I have one and it works extremely well, at a fraction of the price of North American manufactured ones. I think I paid about $35 for the one I am using now. (VC97 3999 Auto range multimeter - very similar to Fluke models and works reliably)

http://tinyurl.com/m6sq6fl

Re: Dental tools - couldn't agree with you more. I have a box of thm right next to my desk. I find the picks excellent for poking the solder out of PCB holes, and a million other reasons, forceps and surgical scissors great for working with wire leads, etc., dental spatulas great for tooling repairs in plastic, and for applying glue, and dental burs and drills great with a flex shaft dremel for various purposes. Dental mirrors also can be very helpful. So I always keep my little box full handy!

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10883

Dave

[dsk]

Hi
I had to fix a non working W.E. 5H dial, and by using eye and ear, I got a result pretty well working.
The spec are probably not OK but its working, and by PC monitoring in Audacity I got this result.
Now I want opinions about it in this thread: http://tinyurl.com/m9s6tnd



dsk

[Scotophor]

Link and both images don't work for me.