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WE 202 Dialer question

Started by winkydink, October 22, 2008, 04:46:25 AM

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winkydink

I am a total newbee to antique/classic phones.  I recently purchased a Western Electric 202 with an F1 handset and a subset box (not sure of the model).

When connected the phone has a dial tone and will also ring and I can talk over it.  I cannot however consistenly dial out from it.  I would say my success rate is about 1 in 10.

I have confirmed with verizon that pulse dialing will work on my phone.  I have attached some other older phones (touch tone with pulse dialing option) to my phone line and have successfully and constistently dial out using those phones (I have heard the pulses emitted from those phones and verified that it did not use any touch tone)

I am left to conclude that the dialer is not working properly on the phone.

Is this something that through use will work itself out?
Is this repairable by a beginner or will the phone/dialer need to be refurbished/replaced.
Is it a wiring problem ??

Any ideas about where to begin would be appreciated.

Thanks

-Winkdink

Mark Stevens

Quote from: winkydink on October 22, 2008, 04:46:25 AM
I am a total newbee to antique/classic phones.  I recently purchased a Western Electric 202 with an F1 handset and a subset box (not sure of the model).

When connected the phone has a dial tone and will also ring and I can talk over it.  I cannot however consistently dial out from it.  I would say my success rate is about 1 in 10.

I have confirmed with verizon that pulse dialing will work on my phone.  I have attached some other older phones (touch tone with pulse dialing option) to my phone line and have successfully and consistently dial out using those phones (I have heard the pulses emitted from those phones and verified that it did not use any touch tone)

I am left to conclude that the dialer is not working properly on the phone.

Is this something that through use will work itself out?
Is this repairable by a beginner or will the phone/dialer need to be refurbished/replaced.
Is it a wiring problem ??

Any ideas about where to begin would be appreciated.

Thanks

-Winkdink

Well Winky, you've come to the right place...we've got a gaggle of dial experts here!  (Unfortunately I'm not a member of that fraternity)  Could you provide more info?  You said that it dials successfully 1 out of 10 times...what happens the other 9?  Are you connecting to the wrong number?  Does the dial spin normally, or is it kind of slow?

BDM

Welcome WinkDink. Review this post. The info more towards the bottom and on the second page may help for starters.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=215.0
--Brian--

St Clair Shores, MI

winkydink


Quote from: Mark Stevens on October 22, 2008, 07:16:39 AM

Well Winky, you've come to the right place...we've got a gaggle of dial experts here!  (Unfortunately I'm not a member of that fraternity)  Could you provide more info?  You said that it dials successfully 1 out of 10 times...what happens the other 9?  Are you connecting to the wrong number?  Does the dial spin normally, or is it kind of slow?

The phone is in excellent shape and the dial spins freely.  The person that I purchased it from stated that he suspected that the phone was a possible restoration by Bell in the 60's.

When I pick up the receiver I get a dial tone.  After I dial the first number the tone dissapears (as it should).  More often than not after I finish dialing the 7 numbers I just have "dead air".  Sometimes after a few numbers (after having dead air) I will get the dial tone again. 

Once when I tried to dial a number that started with "880" I got a message in the middle of dialing that stated that I needed to dial a "1" first, then the number (this leads me to believe that the rotar is pulsing incorrectly (too fast or too slow)).

Sometime (about 1 in 10) I will get lucky, hit the jackpot and phone will have dialed the proper number (my own so that I get a busy signal - but I have also called my cell phone from this phone).

I am not at home at present to look "inside" the phone to see what type of dialer etc it is but If that becomes important I will do so.

BDM

#4
Ahhh, your dial is returning to slowly for the speed needed in your exchange system. I've had the same issue with Vonage, and had to speed up the dial. The dial speed return can be increased. In the governor on the rear of the dial, is a small set screw that adjust the weight tension. I'm at work now and cannot provide pics, though Dennis Markham provided a pic of the rear on a #4 dial. Hopefully he pops in. He can explain it in detail.

What happens when dial speed is the issue, is the exchange pics up some of the pulses, but misses others. Hence, your supposed issue with dialing the wrong number, or no number at all.
--Brian--

St Clair Shores, MI

winkydink

A Further update on my subset.  It is a Western Electric 685A.

Here are a few photos



BDM

Notice that little screw inside the governor. You can loosen and adjust that for speed. If I'm reading your post correctly, the dial speed is to slow.
--Brian--

St Clair Shores, MI

winkydink

#7
Quote from: BDM on October 22, 2008, 02:37:36 PM
Notice that little screw inside the governor. You can loosen and adjust that for speed. If I'm reading your post correctly, the dial speed is to slow.

Actually I don't know if the speed of the pulses are the problem (but there is some type of problem).

What would the proceedure be?  Do I just need to turn the screw clockwise and/or counter clockwise to adjust the speed or is there a nut or some other fastener underneath that I also need to adjust?

Also by governor, do you mean the small round copper piece that spins when the dial is rotating back to the rest position?

I appologize if these seem like silly questions, but being new to this, I don't want to make matters worse.

Thanks for the help.

BTW can you tell which type of dialer this is ?  I have looked for any dates stamped on the underneath of the phone or dialer but have not found any.

BDM

This looks to be a #5 dial. Now, no silly questions here....So....Yes, that is the round copper/brass colored thing-a-ma-jig ;D Notice the small screw inside. That is a standard lefty loosey righty tighty. Now, carefully support it from the opposite side so it doesn't move. Then use a small screwdriver and loosen it just enough to move that small cam it holds down. Been a little while, but try moving that cam to the left, maybe about mid way. The test the dial and see if it has sped up. If it slows down, go in the other direction. Once it's sped up. Reconnect the phone and test it again for dial operation.
--Brian--

St Clair Shores, MI

bingster

#9
Before we get into changing the speed of the dial, let's get the phone, itself, wired properly.  Here's a diagram to follow.  Note that the "W" terminal on the dial in the diagram below is shown above the switches, while on your dial it is below the switches.  That makes no difference, just make sure the white conductor of the handset cord stays connected to it.

EDIT -------

I just noticed that you have a six-conductor mounting cord (the cord that goes from the phone to the subset). You're going to use only four of those conductors (red, green, black, yellow).  Wrap tape around each end of the blue and white conductors (inside the phone and inside the subset) and forget about them.  It also appears that the person who set up this phone connected the red handset cord conductor to the red mounting cord conductor.  They're supposed to be connected, but they're supposed to be both under the "R" terminal on the dial.  Right now, they're bypassing the dial altogether, and that can't be good.
= DARRIN =



BDM

Thank you bingster. If the dial is being by-passed, it shouldn't work at all!
--Brian--

St Clair Shores, MI

Dennis Markham

I'll give you $10 for the whole thing, right now!  :)  Just kidding.

Thank you Bingster.  I had not yet had a chance to respond and fortunately you beat me to the punch.  It didn't look wired properly to me.  I noticed the red handset cord lead but could not tell where it was going.

As someone on the ATCA List once said, they all work, they just need to be wired correctly.  Secondly, as Brian suggested cable based system require a more precise dial speed.  With a POTS line anything close is good enough.  But first we need to get the phone wired properly.

bingster

Quote from: Dennis Markham on October 22, 2008, 07:24:06 PMAs someone on the ATCA List once said, they all work, they just need to be wired correctly. 

I think that's probably the most important phrase that could ever be applied to phone repair.  Definitely words to live by.



Winkydink, I just noticed that the black conductors are connected together just like the red ones are.  You're going to need to separate those too, and connect them under the "BK" dial terminal.

I'm a little amazed this one works at all.  But stick to it.  All these instructions being thrown at you all at once may seem overwhelming, but once you actually start sorting it out, you'll see it's really not that difficult to get it wired correctly, and working as intended.
= DARRIN =



benhutcherson

When I come across a messed-up wiring job on a phone which I had no hand it creating, I often find it easier to just disconnect everything and start with a clean slate.

With a wiring diagram in front of you, it should only take a few minutes to hook everything up as it should be. I typically find that easier than tracing down an incorrect connection.

winkydink

Quote from: benhutcherson on October 22, 2008, 07:54:08 PM
When I come across a messed-up wiring job on a phone which I had no hand it creating, I often find it easier to just disconnect everything and start with a clean slate.

With a wiring diagram in front of you, it should only take a few minutes to hook everything up as it should be. I typically find that easier than tracing down an incorrect connection.

Thank you to everyone who has responded.  (BMD, Bingster, Dennis Markham, and benhutcherson, et. al.)

I have not had a chance to respond since this afternoon, so let me update everyone.

First off, I think I am going to really enjoy my new hobby.  I can't wait to immerse myself into the world of vintage phones.

After BMD put up the post this afternoon regarding changing the dialing speed, I opened up the phone and went to work.  I unloosened the screw, moved the cam a little counter clockwise, re-tightened the screw and then tested the phone.  Much to my amazement the phone now dials out properly !  Yeah !  It seems though, that the pulses are actually a little slower (not faster) than they were before.  However I can now dial 10 out of 10 times (much improved).

When I finished and looked back at the post, I noticed the first post regarding the wiring.  Later there was 2, then 3 and 4.  I am losing count now.

Here is my question.  Should I still embark on rewiring the phone ?  I think I know the answer but I figured that I should ask.

Is my best bet, to take notes and pictures of the present state of the wiring, and then just take off all the wires and follow the diagrams that appeared earlier in the post?

Suggestions are always welcome and thank you again to all for getting me this far.