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capacitor on 591?

Started by Pourme, October 18, 2016, 05:11:32 PM

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Pourme

I bought this 8/62 stamped 591 A/B at a flea market this weekend for $10.00. The body is marked ITT, G1 Western Electric handset. What is a 591 compared to a 500?

Besides the fact that it won't ring, everything else works, fine.

My attention was drawn to the capacitor on the ringer coil. I remember reading on this forum about such a capacitor, but can't recall details. A search just gave me a sea of responses. I tried to photograph it so you can see it well. Does the fact that it wont ring have anything to do with this capacitor?

I did move the black ringer wire from G to L2, it made no difference.

Thanks!

Benny
Benny

Panasonic 308/616 Magicjack service

Victor Laszlo

#1
You did not buy a 500. You bought, according to the photo that you provided, a 591.  Note that the ringer appears to be a frequency ringer (responds to a frequency other than 20 Hz), a feature that is consistent with the supply policy for a 591. They were sold to independent telcos w/o a ringer, and the purchasing company would provide its own ringer.

That said, the normal wiring for all single-party 500-series phones is as follows:

Ring (red line cord conductor) on network terminal L2, with red ringer wire.

Tip (green line cord conductor) on network terminal L1, with black ringer wire.

> Historically, the black ringer wire could also go to the G terminal on the network and thence to the Tip side via the Yellow line cord conductor. That allows the installer to silence the ringer, in the case of a single-party installation, or to wire the set for grounded ringing, in the case of a Ring-party set on a 2-party line<

Slate ringer wire on network terminal K

Slate/red ringer wire on network terminal A




Victor Laszlo

#2
I see that while I was typing my reply, that you edited your post to indicate that you bought a 591, not a 500. Now that you see that it's a 591, you might check with the authority on all WE phones,  "Paul-F" and his website.

"I did move the black ringer wire from G to L2, it made no difference." 

No, I agree that it would not make a difference. By putting both the red and the black ringer leads on the same terminal, as shown in the photo, you have shorted the ringer. I would suggest that you put the black ringer lead on L1, instead. But unless the ringer circuit, with coil, capacitor and adjustable weight on the clapper, is tuned for something close to 20Hz - 30Hz, it will not ring. Is the clapper weight marked with a frequency?

Pourme

Thanks for your response. I moved the black ringer wire to L1, no change. The ringer has only two wires, red on L2, black now on L1. Line cord wires as you recommend.
Benny

Panasonic 308/616 Magicjack service

unbeldi

#4
Quote from: Pourme on October 18, 2016, 05:56:08 PM
Thanks for your response. I moved the black ringer wire to L1, no change. The ringer has only two wires, red on L2, black now on L1. Line cord wires as you recommend.

Wiring looks good.   Is there any vibration whatsoever of the big clapper? Can you feel any when you touch the clapper ?

Your ringer was manufactured by U.S. Instruments, specifically for use in 591 telsets.  You can find these in Graybar catalogs, for example.

Given the size of that clapper, I would say it is for one of the lowest frequencies, 16, 16 2/3 Hz, 20 Hz, or perhaps even 25 Hz.

A frequency-selective ringer needs a specific capacitor value depending on the ringing frequency.  Therefore they mounted the correct capacitor on the ringer, rather than using the capacitor built into the network on terminal A and K.

Is there any identification on the ringer?   There may be what was called a USI number.

If it is a 16 Hz ringer, it will not ring anymore at 20 Hz under normal circumstances. 

Pourme

Yes, there are numbers on the ringer.
No, the ringer doesn't vibrate or do anything at all. You may have answered the question. The ringer is basically obsolete? I'm attempting to ring it with my BK 1045A and my 616.
Benny

Panasonic 308/616 Magicjack service

unbeldi

#6
Quote from: Pourme on October 18, 2016, 06:43:11 PM
Yes, there are numbers on the ringer.
No, the ringer doesn't vibrate or do anything at all. You may have answered the question. The ringer is basically obsolete? I'm attempting to ring it with my BK 1045A and my 616.

The ringer is stamped HC4-40.  This is a Kellogg designation for a 40 Hz decimonic ringer.  So, I was wrong about it being very low in frequency. Clapper size is only one of the critical factors. Perhaps I was also wrong about it being a USI ringer.  As far as I know, only Kellogg used that designation, HC4.  ITT later used WC4.

I am surprised you don't even feel any vibration.  Perhaps the capacitor is bad.  But it should be easy to find a straight-line 20 Hz ringer.  Just by an old junky 500 set for a few dollars; there are still millions, so it seems, of them sitting in basements or there about.  You are looking for a C4A ringer.

Pourme

Quote from: unbeldi on October 18, 2016, 07:43:08 PM
The ringer is stamped HC4-40.  This is a Kellogg designation for a 40 Hz decimonic ringer.  So, I was wrong about it being very low in frequency. Clapper size is only one of the critical factors. Perhaps I was also wrong about it being a USI ringer.  As far as I know, only Kellogg used that designation, HC4.  ITT later used WC4.

I am surprised you don't even feel any vibration.  Perhaps the capacitor is bad.  But it should be easy to find a straight-line 20 Hz ringer.  Just by an old junky 500 set for a few dollars; there are still millions, so it seems, of them sitting in basements or there about.  You are looking for a C4A ringer.

I thought about that after our last correspondence. I may even have one of those.

Thanks!
Benny

Panasonic 308/616 Magicjack service

Pourme

The configuration of this ringer makes me think it would have a unique sound....
Benny

Panasonic 308/616 Magicjack service

unbeldi

#9
Quote from: Pourme on October 18, 2016, 07:49:38 PM
The configuration of this ringer makes me think it would have a unique sound....

I like the sound of frequency ringers.  It is fun to hear a ringer hammer away at 40, 50, or 60 Hz.
Personally, I never change out frequency ringers, rather make them work the way they were supposed to work.  One of my Panasonic 616 can be set to ring at any frequency. (PS: Well... I can set it that way, it's not standard.)

Pourme

OK...I replaced the ringer and wired it ac cording to instructions provided by Victor Laszlo in this thread and it worked. I'll hold on to the ringer and maybe I'll run across a capacitor one day to make it workable. I'd like to hear it RING!

Thanks guys for the time tonight!
Benny

Panasonic 308/616 Magicjack service