Is any of this real?

[jm19063]

Hi all,

I purchased this phone from ebay.  Now I'm questioning if any of it is real.  Hoping you guys can help identify.  I thought it was a 20S, identified by the back of the neck.  But I have a few questions on it:

- I thought the 20S was the same as the 20B, but that the S was always black.  I see traces of chrome on the transmitter plate?
- The mouthpiece looks like it may have been held on with glue.  I was able to remove it, but it's loose when I screw it back in. (that can easily be replaced).
- The transmitter cup has no stamping.  I would think this would have patent dates, no?
- The receiver is a Kellog.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but WE phones never came with Kellog receivers, correct?
- the "neck" seems to me to have a weird shape.  Not sure if that's real.  I always thought they "flowed" rather than having that "step"

Any help you can provide would be appreciated.  I don't mind replacing some parts, like the mouthpiece and receiver, if the phone is real.  I just don't want to spend good money chasing bad if the phone is a fake.

Thank you!

John Martin

[kleenax]

Hi all,

I purchased this phone from ebay.  Now I'm questioning if any of it is real.  Hoping you guys can help identify.  I thought it was a 20S, identified by the back of the neck.  But I have a few questions on it:

- I thought the 20S was the same as the 20B, but that the S was always black.  I see traces of chrome on the transmitter plate?
- The mouthpiece looks like it may have been held on with glue.  I was able to remove it, but it's loose when I screw it back in. (that can easily be replaced).
- The transmitter cup has no stamping.  I would think this would have patent dates, no?
- The receiver is a Kellog.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but WE phones never came with Kellog receivers, correct?
- the "neck" seems to me to have a weird shape.  Not sure if that's real.  I always thought they "flowed" rather than having that "step"

Any help you can provide would be appreciated.  I don't mind replacing some parts, like the mouthpiece and receiver, if the phone is real.  I just don't want to spend good money chasing bad if the phone is a fake.

Thank you!

John Martin

What does the base look like inside with the bottom cover taken off?  It is definitely "REAL"; I wouldn't worry about that, including the trans cup. The fact that it doesn't have any markings on the cup my mean that it was made for in independent Telco. Also, you would never see "Chrome", but instead nickel plating which wears off easily over time or with too much polishing.

[jm19063]

Thanks, Ray!

The nickel throws me off.  Were there 20S units that were nickel?  I thought the 20B's were nickel and the 20S's were all black.

Attached are the insides.  Again, thanks for your help!

-j

[jm19063]

Also, what would be the appropriate receiver for this phone?

Thanks,
-j

[Desert Phone Guy]

Your phone is all old and original. The green cords are a good indicator of originality.  Nickel has worn off showing brass underneath.

Proper receiver would be an exposed terminal type 122 "Pony " receiver... Western Electric

[kleenax]

Thanks, Ray!

The nickel throws me off.  Were there 20S units that were nickel?  I thought the 20B's were nickel and the 20S's were all black.

Attached are the insides.  Again, thanks for your help!

-j

I'm sure, like the Western Electric #10 candlestick, they could be had in either nickel plate or plain black.

[jm19063]

Thank you all for your help!

[shadow67]

I am not sure about the original configuration of a 20S, but I have received two of them that were black with nickel transmitters.

< edit 04-09-22: image removed, rotated, reattached >
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=25927

[poplar1]

I am not sure about the original configuration of a 20S, but I have received two of them that were black with nickel transmitters.

Even early 20-AL examples (1914+?) have nickel plated transmitters.

In the 1923 #5 catalog, WE was transitioning from nickel plated to black transmitters.

Transmitter section includes the 323BW and 337BW (page 266).
While both are shown in black finish only, the 323BW has the following notation:

*Nickel plated transmitter will be furnished until present stocks are exhausted.

Note that "B" in the transmitter code indicates "black."

[Sargeguy]

20-S were black (japanned) and 20-B were nickel. Yours looks like an original 20-S, which are hard to find. Most are converted 20-B or were re-designated 20-ALs later on. I would paint the phone black and bake on the finish in the oven (when the wife isn't home). Japanned finishes were not particularly shiny so use a semi-gloss and sand between 2-3 coats. I have a tutorial on how to do it somewhere. The transmitter can be either black,  or (more commonly) nickel plated.  It would originally have had a 122AW OST receiver. Cords were either green or brown. Base was most likely brown but I have seen green. These were made when the vast majority of WE candlesticks were nickeled, so it is common to see parts we associate with 20-Bs on a 20-S. After WWI it flipped and nickel phones like the 20-PC became the exception while most other candlesticks were black.