Very strange 332s... probably!

[andy1702]

So I went to Sheffield Steam Rally last weekend. Lots to see and quite a few vintage stalls selling all kinds of things. Two of my purchases are the phones pictured below. At first glance they look like GPO 332s, but looking a little closer reveals a few oddities. First, the dial doesn't quite look right. The big space between the last finger hole and the finger stop is (I'm told) something that never appeared on genuine 332 dials. But the strangest thing is the handle on the back. It's obviously a dynamo, with two terminals to fit a line cord. But when you try to turn the handle with the phone sat on a desk, the handle hiots both the desk and the terminals. The handle also potrudes through a very roughly broken hole in the back of the phone case. Finally the handset is from a later 7xx series phone, although the microphone unit inside seems to be non-standard.

Open the phones up and there are more surprises. The dial isn't connected to anything, there's a terminal strip just floating about inside and the main body is taken up with the dunamo with no normal internals of a 332 to be found. There is however a wioring diagram stuck to the inside of the base of each phone claiming they are 332 mk1.

These are obviously some sort of conversion, but the question is why?

I'm hoping to eventually restore them to original condition, whatever that may have been. There is a very faint impression stamped into the back of the dial saying they are mnade by ATE in Liverpool with the legend 'MADE IN ENGLAND'. I wonder if these came off some kind of PAX system? But if they did, why the 332 sticker inside the base?

Answers om the proverbial postcard please!

[andy1702]

More photos of these odd phones.

[LarryInMichigan]

My guess is that those phones started life as standard GPO 332s and someone later converted them to magneto sets for some sort of field use.  Why that would be done is anyone's guess, but all sorts of products, eg. intercoms, dictation devices, etc. were made out of surplus phones.  The later style handsets were probably used because they were more durable, available, comfortable, or whatever at the time that the conversion was done.  If you are not too concerned about the esthetics of the backs of the phones, you should be able to convert them back to functioning GPO 332s.

The spacing on the dial looks standard for GPO dials.


Larry

[rdelius]

the magnotos might be voice freq ones that put out 1 kc or so and instead of a ringer,the sound goes into the rec in the handset.Those are british type 24 dials and the fingerstop is slightly shifted from the #10 or 12

[andy1702]

If the handsetbis used as the ringer, what controls the ring or speech circuits? Because there is no 332 internal chassis there is also no hook switch.

[ThePillenwerfer]

The dials are ATM 24Cs.  They made 332s for their private customers, such as railways, and fitted their own dial.

As for the handsets it probably was a case of sticking on what was available either when they were modified or when the originals got broken.

[twocvbloke]

Definitely seems like a bodge-up for some unknown purpose (intercom aside!!), the transmitters in the handsets could be ones that provide a sound-powered transmission circuit (thus making the phones battery-less), hence being non-standard, the dial, although a genuine one, you're right to feel a bit suspicious, as ITI (Indian Telephone Industries) used the ATM (latterly ATE) 24C dial as their base for copying in India, so when seeing a 332-a-like with such a dial with the large gap between the fingerstop and Zero, alarm bells tend to go off in our heads...

The rest, it's either a complete home-brew mashup, or it was made to serve a purpose that only its creators know of...

[andy1702]

Looking at it again, I think these were originally private 332s (hence the dials) but idong some standard vomponents, lnvluding the base plates with the diagram on. A lot og questions would probably be answered if I vonnected them together and tried them as a field phone type setup, so that's probably what I'll do next.

Does anyone recognise the magnetos? I wonder where they came from?

[ThePillenwerfer]

According to the number on the base, this is what they started out as: http://britishtelephones.com/atm/l11560.htm

[andy1702]

Very interesting... But why does he call it an American dial? It actrually says Made in Liverpool England on the back of mine.

[ThePillenwerfer]

ATM were making dials before the GPO.  They used a design by STC (an American company) and stuck with it; I've seen 706s fitted with them. I don't know if this was due to legal/royalty considerations or if they simply thought it was a better design.

[Alex G. Bell]

ATM were making dials before the GPO.  They used a design by STC (an American company) and stuck with it; I've seen 706s fitted with them. I don't know if this was due to legal/royalty considerations or if they simply thought it was a better design.

There has been a lengthy discussion within the last week on the GPO_Telephones Yahoo Group about the differences between US-rooted #24, #24C and GPO #8 and #10 dials and the reasons why various British companies produced them or did not.

[Jack Ryan]

ATM were making dials before the GPO.

The GPO never made dials. The first dial used by the GPO was made by Automatic Electric in the USA (the Mercedes dial). ATM had the Strowger rights in the UK and Commonwealth and began making the Mercedes dial (Dial Auto No 1) in about 1913.

The first GPO standard dial was the No 8 made by Siemens Brothers. This dial and the No 10 were subsequently made by several manufacturers under a patent sharing arrangement. Later dials like the No 12 were also made under patent sharing arrangement. The No 12 was introduced in about 1950 by GEC. The significant change was the trigger mechanism which looks like the mechanism patented by Kellogg in 1912.

They used a design by STC (an American company) and stuck with it; I've seen 706s fitted with them.

STC was formed after the sale of IWE in 1925 - they weren't around when the first dials were used. There was a WE (BTMC) dial used at Darlington and Dudley (Dials No 5 and 6) but it was not used in subsequent installations.

I don't know if this was due to legal/royalty considerations or if they simply thought it was a better design.

The Type 24 B and C were made by ATM and ITI and were AE Type 24 style dials with the GPO style mount. They enabled ATM to supply the No 10 dial or the Type 24 (usually) C dial on British telephones. The facts are illusive here but the patent sharing arrangement applied to equipment manufactured and supplied to the GPO. If ATM supplied dials to private or export markets the Siemens dial would have attracted a royalty - the Type 24C did not.

Regards
Jack

[ThePillenwerfer]

Thanks for the information, Jack.  Trying to follow old company histories is like trying to plait rice pudding.

[Jack Ryan]

Thanks for the information, Jack.  Trying to follow old company histories is like trying to plait rice pudding.

You're welcome.

Perhaps it would be easier to take in if you ate it.

Regards
Jack