WE 5H Dial Click

[Wallphone]

There was a discussion a couple of days ago about how 5H dials sound different from one another. I took a dial that I needed to repair apart to take some pictures of how you can adjust the clicking. When I cleaned the dial up and put it back together I found that I had another problem with it. After dialing a number, when the finger wheel returned, it would bounce. After a lot of trial & error and comparing it to another 5H that worked fine I finally found the solution that I want to share so that maybe it will save you some time in the future. The governor has a slip clutch in it so that if you spin the gear one way it grabs the governor and if you spin it the other way it slips and the governor doesn't turn with it. Well I found out that the slip clutch was all gummed up so I sprayed some very light penetrating oil that I have (Kroil) and let it sit for awhile. It freed up the slip clutch so it now works the way it should. I blew it out with compressed air and reassembled the dial and now it works great. So if you ever get a dial where the finger wheel bounces when it hits home, you have a slip clutch that ain't slipping.
Now for the clicking adjustment, see the pic below. You can loosen the two screws up and wiggle the bracket around a little until you get the clicking how you want it.
Doug Pav

[JimNY]

Thank you for the part of this post about the slip clutch!  I have been struggling with a #2 dial that I took apart/reassembled multiple times trying to get rid of the 'bounce' you described. I read your description and stared at the governor for a few hours and then realized the spindle was frozen to the body, preventing the clutch from clutching. An overnight bath in penetrating oil and the next day the dial was good as new!

[LarryInMichigan]

Please note that Doug Pavlichek, who was a collector here in the Detroit area, passed away several years ago.

Larry

[TelePlay]

Now for the clicking adjustment, see the pic below. You can loosen the two screws up and wiggle the bracket around a little until you get the clicking how you want it.

This topic was started well before members started to use Audacity to check and adjust dial speed.

That bracket noted in the post is not there to adjust the aesthetic sound, clicking, of the dial.

This bracket is used to adjust the "bounce" of dial pulse contacts. If improperly set, adjusted to make the dial "click" louder, the pulse contacts will bounce when closing to produce a very dirty pulse - multiple contact closes for what should be one, simple close during the dial "make" for each number dialed.

I have this detailed in another topic somewhere on the forum which includes Audacity dial wave forms showing the "dirty" break/make pulses that occur with an improperly adjusted pulse bounce suppression arm.

The quality of the pulse is extremely more important than the aesthetic clicking sound of the dial.

As for a frozen clutch on the governor axel, this will cause the governor to come into play when dialing a number, the finger wheel will turn hard when dialing because the clutch is grabbing the axel, something that should happen only after the finger wheel AFTER the finger wheel is released - the axel grabs the governor axel to bring the governor into play to allow the dial to send the appropriate 10 PPS (+/- 1) clean break/make dial pulses to the central office.

A frozen clutch issue is not related to the clicking sound/pulse contact quality ensured by the dampening arm shown.

I'll see if I can find my pulse damper arm topic later today and post that link.

[TelePlay]

Here's the Audacity image with the pulse damper arm in several locations



The 1st and 3rd image are very dirty "make" contacts.

The topic of pawl adjustment is here

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17668.0

The metal adjustable placement arm acts on a thin metal plate which contacts the black rubber tip of the pulse pawl arm which affects the quality of the pulse contacts on the "make" cycle of dialing.

[TelePlay]

This is the WE Governor Clutch,



the spring on the governor shaft that allows the finger wheel to be turned very fast (when dialing a number) but upon releasing the finger wheel, the dial will return to a normal stop at the rate of 10 Pulses Per Second (+/- 1).

If the spring clutch is stuck to the governor shaft, the governor will turn when dialing a number and will be doing 2 things: 1) slowing down the turning of the finger wheel to 10 PPS; and 2) putting great wear on the governor brakes if the person dialing the number tries to force the finger wheel to turn at a faster rate.


The clutch allows a number to be dialed without having the governor move but upon releasing the finger wheel, the clutch engages the governor keeping the dial's return to its stop to 10 PPS (+/- 1). It's a nice design by WE and of all the dials I've ever worked on, I've only found one with a stuck clutch.

=====

As for the clicking sound, there is no need to adjust the pulse pawl to make the dial click louder. This just messes with the dial contacts closing while dialing a number. The WE #2 dials had a nice, loud click that many like but it was due to the dial design. WE spend a lot of time and money working to reduce that clicking in the #4, #5 and #6 dials, each dial in the sequence becoming quieter.

WE perfected the quiet dial, made it as quiet as possible, with the #7/8/9 dial designs.

IIRC, the pulse pawl in the #4 was a transition from the loud #2 to the newer and somewhat quieter design of the #5, which also used the pulse pawl. The pulse pawl was not part of the #6 and higher dial design, they used an oblong cam to open and close the pulse contacts.

Other manufacturers had their own dial designs so this only applies to WE dials and dials similar to WE designed dials.

[Contempra]

Teleplay , What are the red lines supposed to show?

[poplar1]

Early 5H had a phenol pulse pawl. Later 5H had a pulse pawl similar to that of a 4H (metal with insulated tip). The spring that pulled back on the pulse pawl on 4H was eliminated in the 5H to eliminate the loud clicks.

6A and 7-type were definitely louder than 5H.

What was the improvement with 4H vs. 2A?

[TelePlay]

Teleplay , What are the red lines supposed to show?

Lubrication points.

This image was taken from one of my dial topics because I didn't have the time to take a dial out of a phone to take a photo of the clutch.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?board=25.0

[Contempra]

Lubrication points.

This image was taken from one of my dial topics because I didn't have the time to take a dial out of a phone to take a photo of the clutch.

Ah okay thank you because I was wondering what these red lines were pointing to. Thank you, it's nice to have shown it to me in a photo (which I also took for me personally in case I have the same dial one day ) . You never know

[TelePlay]

Early 5H had a phenol pulse pawl. Later 5H had a pulse pawl similar to that of a 4H (metal with insulated tip). The spring that pulled back on the pulse pawl on 4H was eliminated in the 5H to eliminate the loud clicks.

6A and 7-type were definitely louder than 5H.

The #2, #4 and #5 had the pulse pawl (post sticking up through the dial) which slapped at the pulse contact pile up. The #6 and later dials had the elongated cam that opened and closed the pulse contacts in a smooth, constant contact action, same as a cam shaft on an automobile engine.

Using a cam instead of a ratcheted pulse pawl arm means two different sources of the noises, right?

The #6 and #7 dial noises are not from a ratchet like the clicking sounds from a #2-#5 dial.

The #6 I have out of a housing does sound louder than the #5 I have out of a housing but the sounds are different, as if the new #6 can design got rid of the pawl ratchet but the new cam design needed work with gear train noises (and comparing dials in a plastic vs metal housing is also not the same due to the vibrational transfer being better or louder in plastic housing amplifying the dial noises).

If the pulse pawl damper was not set properly, the slapping of the contacts would cause the contacts to bounce resulting in what looks like as many 10 reverberations for each number pulsed (bottom pulse wave form above, not a clean open and close contact when set right (the middle wave form). That dirty wave form if sent to a speaker would be heard as many clicks, 10 or so, by the CO.

The cam of a #6 and later just opened and closed the pulse contacts, no slapping of the contacts together when closing.

I realize their equipment probably didn't react quick enough to see the multiple contact openings and closings but from a setting the dial correctly, closing the pulse contacts should be one click, one contact, not a bouncing situation.

What was the improvement with 4H vs. 2A?

I have no idea.

[Doug Rose]

What was the improvement with 4H vs. 2A?

It fit in a D1 202. The #2 dials did not...Doug

[TelePlay]

For what it's worth, to determine if the governor clutch (the type of governor shown below) is frozen, or stuck, can be simply done by watching the governor while grabbing hold of the finger wheel and turning it a number or two and then letting it return to a normal stop.

If the governor clutch is not frozen to the governor shaft, when turning the finger wheel to 0 at a normal dialing speed, the governor will not turn, the clutch allows the dialing mechanism to turn freely without engaging the governor. Turning the finger wheel to 0 slowly will cause the governor to turn maybe 2 or 3 full revolutions which is just minor clutch friction. This show a freely working clutch which is not grabbing the governor shaft when dialing a number. Upon releasing the dial, the governor spins rapidly (with or without a frozen clutch) controlling the rate of return until the dial comes to a normal stop.

The number of governor revolutions seen when dialing 0 and releasing the finger wheel (a 1 second return at 10 PPS) will vary depending on the gear train ratios of the dial model being checked. For example, a #6H dial will show about 23 governor revolutions and a #5H dial will show about 17 revolutions, both within about 1 second of time, for the dial to return from 0 to a full stop.

If the governor clutch is frozen to the governor shaft, dialing a number will be hard to do in that the governor is now also controlling the speed that the finger wheel can be turned when dialing by expanding the governor brakes and then also controlling the return speed of the dial to its normal stop (10 PPS). Moving the finger wheel back and forth a number or two while holding onto the finger wheel and looking at the governor will show the governor moving back and forth the same rate in both directions showing there is no clutch slippage when dialing, when turning the finger wheel clockwise.

The governor flywheel brakes turn counter clockwise when dialing a number and clock wise upon releasing the number wheel. If the clutch is stuck, when dialing the number the brakes expand but are turning backward meaning the part of the brake wings that contact the raceway are moving forward (brake pad end of the wings are leading) within the raceway causing a pushing, digging braking affect.

When releasing the finger wheel, the clutch causes the governor to spin clockwise. The brake wings expand in their normal "backward" (pad trailing) operation. As such, that part of the brake wing which contacts the raceway to control the dial speed is trailing in the raceway. Trailing braking puts a lot less stress on the brake pad points and the governor raceway.

The difference between pad forward (frozen clutch) and pad trailing (normally working clutch) is analogous to pulling a sharp wood chisel across the surface of a piece of wood (normal trailing operation of the brake pads) versus pushing a sharp wood chisel across the surface of a piece of wood (abnormal leading operation of the brake pads which puts more wear on the brake pads and raceway).

While a stuck clutch rarely happens, it does and if it does it is very important to restore the clutch to normal operation before operating the dial.
 

[MMikeJBenN27]

I have a 5H like that, so now I know that it can be fixed.  Thanks for posting this info.

Mike.

[RDPipes]

I have a dial that is stiff to dial and bounces on return but, I'm at an age my eyes are failing my reflexes are slow and I can't seem to hold onto anything without dropping it at least once hence the explosion of the last dial I tried to clean and repair having parts scatter from here to Bensonhurst. I'm just not good with things that have springs anymore.
So for $6 measly dollars I'd rather send my dials to Steve Hilsz and have them come back clean, working properly and probably never even dropped once. LOL!