I recently got a 151AL
I was told it was "straight wired" so it would work without a subset
I have a 634 subset coming so I want to wire it correctly
I took off all the wires ...
I was getting some strange readings on my meter.
I took apart the phone .. sure enough the transmitter wired was on the "Y" terminal of the hook switch (the yellow wire).
Just wanted to make sure my phone was wired wrong and the diagram was correct.
Thanks!
Good that you want it correct. These people who hot-wire it and claim that a subset isn't really necessary remind of a used car salesman telling prospects that tires aren't really necessary, you can drive it on the rims.
Mike
Quote from: MMikeJBenN27 on March 26, 2023, 01:31:56 AMGood that you want it correct. These people who hot-wire it and claim that a subset isn't really necessary remind of a used car salesman telling prospects that tires aren't really necessary, you can drive it on the rims.
Mike
You're right Mike , no doubt .
I was about going to ask what a 61B filter (as shown in the diagram) is, but the answer is already there: A filter to prevent interference in AM radios
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=6192.0
In European phones I have seen a 0.1 µF capacitor being used, or a 100 Ohm resistor combined with the 1 µF ringer capacitor, presumably for the same purpose.
I must be loosing it ...
I have two wiring diagrams ... both from the library ... both say how to wire a 151 ... they look similar but they have some differences!
In the one, the wire from the Y terminal is Yellow and goes to the L2 Y terminal in the subset.
In the other diagram, the Yellow wires goes to the Black if a filter is used and the note says "if a filter is not provided connect the yellow lead from the hook switch to the Y of the dial"
Totally different way of wiring ... which is right ??????
On top this ... and this might just be me ... I can't find a wring diagram for a simple 302A (I assume that would be closest to this phone) ... found AW ... e, d, f, G ... a 302 with a 5302 dial .. all kinds of thins I don't want .... just want a simple 302, two wire, 2AA or 4H or 5H dial ... just something I can trace the wires on so I can wire this 151 the same or at least figure out which diagram is correct.
Thanks ... Mike
I put this in the candlestick area but no advice yet so I thought I would try here ... and really is is much more of a technical issue.
Background .. got a 151AL ... it was "straight wired" ... trying to rewire it so it works with a 634 subset.
Took off all the wires. Found a "mistake" according to the two wiring diagrams I had. The doubled yellow wire from my transmitter went to the yellow (Y) terminal on the hook switch rather than the R (or YY) terminal as noted in both wiring diagrams.
OK .. corrected this ... but now the fun begins ...
I have two wiring diagrams ... both from the library ... both say how to wire a 151 ... they look similar but they have some differences!
In the one, the wire from the Y terminal is Yellow and goes to the L2 Y terminal in the subset.
In the other diagram, the Yellow wires goes to the Black if a filter is used and the note says "if a filter is not provided connect the yellow lead from the hook switch to the Y of the dial"
Totally different way of wiring ... which is right ??????
On top this ... and this might just be me ... I can't find a wring diagram for a simple 302A (I assume that would be closest to this phone) ... found AW ... e, d, f, G ... a 302 with a 5302 dial .. all kinds of thins I don't want .... just want a simple 302, two wire, 2AA or 4H or 5H dial ... just something I can trace the wires on so I can wire this 151 the same or at least figure out which diagram is correct.
Just not at all sure how to wire this phone!!!!!
Thanks ... Mike
For what it's worth, here's a BSP with illustrations of the base cording/wiring for the 151AL and related models in both manual (no dial) and dial configurations: https://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/search?q=c32+461+i1
Per the cording illustration, a manual 151AL set has W-BB and Y-BK terminals on the dial blank, while a dial set instead has Y, BK, BB, and W on the dial.
The redrawn/simplified diagram posted at http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=8465.0 for dial-equipped 151AL sets without a filter (also sourced from the T.C.I. library) is better than the one in the PDF you attached, but note its own error: there is no Y-BK terminal in a dial set; the desk stand cord's black wire goes straight to BK on the dial.
The original diagram covers both manual and dial configurations. The solid lines show the connections in a manual set; where a solid line splits into solid or dashed paths, you are supposed to follow the dashed one when a dial is present. If a filter is not present, you ignore that part of the diagram and follow the note.
The yellow wire from the subset goes to B-Y. This terminal is on the small terminal block that also has an unused RR terminal.
The double yellow wire from the transmitter goes to R on the hookswitch. The other transmitter wire is the black wire in the 5-wire switch cord ("harness"), which goes to BK on the dial.
The most common 302 is the 302G, which has a 3-conductor mounting cord (line cord). 302C is an earlier version with a 2-conductor mtg. cord for use on individual lines where the ringing circuit is bridged to L1 and L2. Either is correct, but I don't know that it will help with the internal wiring of the 151AL.
This was just sent to me on another forum.
It seems to make sense.
It is marked C45.105 Jun 1931
It does show the Blue wire from the B terminal on the hook switch going to the BY terminal on the newly added board ... then it changes to Yellow.
This is different than the ones in the Library.
It shows the terminal PR not used ... and funny, on my phone there is no screw in that terminal.
I think this new diagram is the "correct" one ... but maybe all of them will work.
I will wire the phone this way ... the subset should be in this week ... then I can try it.
Thanks!
Quote from: xtal_01 on March 26, 2023, 01:51:50 PMIt does show the Blue wire from the B terminal on the hook switch going to the BY terminal on the newly added board ... then it changes to Yellow.
This is different than the ones in the Library.
Did you check the diagram referenced by loblolly966? It is also from TCI library.
I don't see what you mean about the blue wire being different in either that diagram, or the one you originally posted. In both of these, as well as the third one you just posted, the blue [harness] wire goes from B on hookswitch to the B-Y terminal, where the yellow wire from the subset also connects.
Also, "PR" is a misprint in your latest diagram. It should be "RR" (Double Red).
Quote from: xtal_01 on March 26, 2023, 11:31:51 AMIn the other diagram, the Yellow wires goes to the Black if a filter is used and the note says "if a filter is not provided connect the yellow lead from the hook switch to the Y of the dial"
Totally different way of wiring ... which is right ??????
Please provide a link to, or copy of, this diagram. It doesn't sound right.
EDIT:
I did find this one in the TCI Libary. It incorrectly shows the yellow wire from the subset going to Y on the hookswitch. It leaves out the Y-B terminal in the base, and the blue wire going from said terminal to B on the hookswitch.
Here is the drawing I was given from the TCI library TCI 151AL wirng (https://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/wiring-diagrams/western-electric-1/desk-stands/13043-desk-stands-151al-wiring/file)
You can see the Yellow wire does not go to dial but exits to L2
I did follow the other diagrams ... went like a breeze!
Phone is wired and ready for the subset (was just given the tracking number so should be here later this week).
Super excited to give it a try !!!!!!!!!
I used the original cord that was cloth covered 4 wire, to go to the subset.
Thanks so much for all the help and advice !!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: xtal_01 on March 26, 2023, 01:51:50 PMThis was just sent to me on another forum.
It seems to make sense.
It is marked C45.105 Jun 1931
[...]
I think this new diagram is the "correct" one ...
It is. (It's actually from section C45.102, the entirety of which is available here (https://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/search?q=c45+102+i1); your copy of the diagram was digitally touched-up for readability. Just what I really wanted to find in the library earlier, but it wasn't where I was looking...)
xtal_01 Maybe you could post a brief summation of just what went where to make a working system. I too have a hotwired candlestick and a 302 base I'm going to dig into right after Christmas is over! Enjoy your holidays!
Quote from: Jack Aman on December 24, 2023, 01:48:12 PMI too have a hotwired candlestick and a 302 base.
Sidetone (such as 50AL, 51AL, 20AL) or antisidetone (151AL, for example)?
I did get it working ... in fact it works great!
It is connected to my line and WOW can you hear it ring!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAyJA4oM4-I&t=8s
Hey!
I followed the wiring diagram and it worked great!
WOW, can you hear it ring!!!
youtube of phone in use (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAyJA4oM4-I&t=8s)
Poplar, here is what I have. I believe the number at the back of the transmitter is "20AL" The parts have been painted or powder coated and it is indistinct. Here is a photo of the phone base with wiring removed. The hook switch wiring is as I found it. Nothing wired to the top connectors. The two blacks from the transmitter and the two greens went down into the phone base. As I received the phone (hotwired) it would answer calls, receive, and transmit. The dial would neither break dial tone nor dial out.
WOW ...it looks like you are missing all the wires that go to the dial? Plus a couple off the switch.
How original do you want this to be ... do do you just want to get it working?
If you want it original, you would need to find a wiring harness.
If you are just trying to get it working, I would print out the drawing and one by one wire the phone, crossing out each wire as I installed it.
It came with the hook switch wired just as you see it. Four wires into the body of the phone. Here is a photo of the body and dial wiring as it was. It was clearly SO wrong (dial didn't function at all) so I just cleared it. I want it to work properly with a subset. I have a 684 subset and a 302 base. Would like to use the 302 if possible. Thanks!
OK, so it looks like you have the original hook switch off a 20-AL rather than what I had which was a 51-AL
I hate to do this but I think I will leave this to poplar 1 . He has been doing this much longer than I have. I just found a post from 2015 where he helped someone do exactly what you are doing.
He explains the difference in the two hook switches and says which must be jumped.
He has been a member since 2012 ... way longer than I have been collecting phones.
Mike
Thanks Mike. I appreciate the help! Hopefully he'll jump in. Maybe you could guide me to the 2015 thread too?
Here is the link I found ... looks like exactly your situation. He thought it was a 51AL but turns out it was a 20AL ... only difference is the number of terminals on the hand switch.
Hope this helps ...
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13937.0
You have a rack from a 51AL that was originally for a 20AL: Note that W was stamped out and restamped BB. Then the extra terminals Y and GN were removed, since they weren't needed for a 51AL.
Both 20AL and 51AL are sidetone. The 302 base is anti-sidetone. There aren't enough contact springs on your hookswitch (assuming there are 3) to make a 151AL, which has 4 contact springs (2 sets of 2 contacts) for the anti-sidetone circuits shown above.
Normally, with a 51AL, you would use a sidetone subset such as the metal 534A or the later 584A (not the antisidetone 634A, 684A, or 302 base).
There are at least 2 diagrams on the forum showing connecting a sidetone desk stand such as a 51AL to an antisidetone subset (or 302 base). One of them doesn't allow any extensions with ringers on the same line. The second one allows multiple ringers.
Either way, you will need to follow the 51AL diagram fot the phone, and not the 151AL diagrams above nor the 50AL diagram.
Will dig in on this tomorrow. Thanks everyone.
Diagram from BSP WR-C63.373 for connecting a 51AL to a 302 base or antisidetone subset:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=93570;imagee
This one does not limit the number of ringers.
Note: The 51AL is wired in the standard manner. The difference is only in the way it is connected in the 302 base or 634 or 684 subset. Also, the red and black condenser wires connect to L1 terminal and to spare terminal (BK shown for subset, but you can use the spare GND terminal in the 302 base). Line connects to C and L2Y.
For a 4H or 5H dial, strap the BB and R dial terminals. You will need 3 wires from the base to the handle + 3 conductor cord to the subset.
Thank you! Going to get it done today!
Maybe a dumb question but what do the dashed lines on the diagram represent? There seem to be two different wiring possibilities on this diagram. Thank you!
I've always thought dashed lines are, in this case, "if" a dial were to be added to the candle stick.
OK...I fiddled for about three hours today. I THINK I followed the diagram...never tried to do this before. There is no BK terminal on the 302 base, so I put the green to ground and it seemed to work...sort of. I get dial tone when I lift the earpiece, and it stops when I hang up. An incoming call rings the 302 base, and the call can be answered. There is transmit and receive...pretty good actually as per my "whisper test." The dial breaks dial tone, but does not seem to dial out. Most strange of all, the mechanical sounds of the dial are amplified and delivered into the earpiece LOUDLY. Click! Clank! Same behavior as when it was hot wired.
Are there any obvious bonehead mistakes I might have made? Gonna call it a day and get some real chores done. Thanks all.
This diagram for the 51AL may be easier to read. (Subset not shown)
This is from AT&T's Specifications No. 4566, February 1926, page 38 in TCI Library
51AL diagram from ATT Spec 4566, February 1926, page 38 (TCI Library)
Desk Stand Cord (from subset) connects as follows:
Red conductor to R on small terminal block in base of phone
Green to GN on same terminal block
Yellow to Y on dial
Receiver Cord:
Green to GN on terminal block in base
White to W on dial
D3B Switch Cord ("harness"):
Double blue from BB on dial to BB on rack (switch hook)
Red from R on small terminal block to R on rack
Black from BK on dial to transmitter
Other transmitter wire goes to YY on rack
Diagram shows a 2A-type dial
For a 2H, 4H, 5H, or 6A dial, strap dial terminals BB and R together.
Thank you! Will get on this first thing. Think I may have reversed one of the wires on the rack.
Many thanks to Poplar. I followed the diagram precisely, and his written description made it a lot easier to do that. The 302 base rings, calls can be answered, transmit and receive are both good. Dial tone comes and stops as it should when the hook is manipulated. Only remaining problem is the dial. It does not break tone or dial out. Maybe there's a problem with the dial itself. I still hear sounds associated with handling the phone or operating the dial loudly in the earpiece. Is that just what wide-open sidetone sounds like? In the meantime, the phone "mostly" works, is operating on a subset/network, and looks great on the piano. I'll call it an 80 percent win. MANY thanks to this forum!
Last update. My last message described how I ended up with my candlestick. Before I buttoned everything up, I noted once more the unoccupied "R" terminals on both the 302 base and my candlestick dial. I also had one lead of my four-lead subset cord flapping in the breeze, so on a whim I connected them. The phone now works perfectly including dialing out. The base no longer rings, however. I'll take it! I'm hoping someone with way more knowledge than I have (that means everyone) can explain this. There is still one wire on the 302 base loose: a red and yellow lead. Thanks everyone.
Jack, in case it helps, attached is a version of the diagram poplar1 linked below, modified to be specific to a 51AL with a dial and without a filter so that it's easier to follow. Make sure your phone conforms to this, including the wiring of the 302 base (substituting GND for the absent BK terminal), and including the installation of a small wire "strap" or jumper between the BB and R terminals on the dial.
Quote from: poplar1 on December 29, 2023, 02:12:51 AMDiagram from BSP WR-C63.373 for connecting a 51AL to a 302 base or antisidetone subset:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=93570;imagee
This one does not limit the number of ringers.
Note: The 51AL is wired in the standard manner. The difference is only in the way it is connected in the 302 base or 634 or 684 subset. Also, the red and black condenser wires connect to L1 terminal and to spare terminal (BK shown for subset, but you can use the spare GND terminal in the 302 base). Line connects to C and L2Y.
For a 4H or 5H dial, strap the BB and R dial terminals. You will need 3 wires from the base to the handle + 3 conductor cord to the subset.
Thanks! Wired in this way, everything worked except the dial. It did not break dial tone. Same behavior with or without BB and R connected. Connecting R on the 302 base to R on the dial made the dial work, but silenced the ringer. That's not a problem as there are others. (House sounds like a bank robbery when a call comes in.) There are now four connections, though, and the diagrams and instructions clearly call for three. Also on Poplar's recommendation, the line is hooked to L2Y and C, not L1. Sure enough, that's the only way it'll work. I see "C" on the diagram, but I don't know enough about this so see how it relates to L1. I'm happy with this result but I'd like to understand why it's working this way. I appreciate your input!
I just discovered reading here on the forum that the clicking and clanking of the dial, the sound of my hand touching and holding the candlestick and all the other noises I'm hearing in the earpiece are just the sound of sidetone! As Ed McMahon often said to Carson, now THAT I did not know!
Yes, that's why some companies came up with minor modifications to their side tone circuits to reduce the level of physically created noise. Sort of a half-anti-side tone modification. The mods usually show up as notes on the bottom of circuits. I found just holding a CS was quite noisy.
Yes, this is the premise for using coin collectors with deskstands an wallsets.
In the case of deskstands, the coin collector is mechanically coupled by means of clamps to the deskstand. This allows the sound of the coin signals to be coupled by means of the metal clamps to the deskstands transmitter.
This allows the operator to determine the denomination and amount of coins that were being deposited.
Likewise, when used with a wallset, if enough space is available, the coin collector is mounted on the set's backboard. Otherwise, a metal backing plate is installed behind the wallset and the adjacent coin collector. This coupling allows the sound from the coin signals to travel through the set's wood and metal components to the transmitter.
Again, this allows the operator to determine the denomination and amount of coins that were being deposited.
Quote from: Jack Aman on December 31, 2023, 08:45:24 PMI just discovered reading here on the forum that the clicking and clanking of the dial, the sound of my hand touching and holding the candlestick and all the other noises I'm hearing in the earpiece are just the sound of sidetone! As Ed McMahon often said to Carson, now THAT I did not know!
Jack, I haven't had a chance to duplicate the problem of not breaking dial tone with the WR (War Restrictions) diagram. Are you still having that problem when using only 3 conductors in the desk stand cord to the AST subset or 302 base?
What type transmitter do you have -- 323, 337, 625A "bulldog"? Noise is worse with the older type transmitters. (But the 152AB with head receiver was marketed as "hands free" and avaiable in some Service Rep catalogs in the 1960s!)
You might want to obtain, at some point, a WE 534A subset with a 46-type sidetone induction coil. (Or a WE 295A, 334A, or 584A subset.)
Remember that you can connect multiple 20ALs, 40ALs, 50ALs, 51ALs, 102s -- in any combination -- to one sidetone subset. This is how many old apartments here in Atlanta were wired: With triple inside wire (tip, ring, and ground) from the basement to the hall of the apt, where the 534A was mounted, and the main phone (sidetone desk stand or hand telephone set) connected directly to the subset. Any extension 51ALs, 102s, etc. could be added in other rooms by extending the same type twisted triple inside wire (red, green and yellow tracers) from R, GN, and L2-Y terminals in the sidetone subset to a connecting block (such as a 42A) and connecting a 51AL, for example, on a table or desk in the living room.)
Or, you could look for a 151AL or convert your 51ALby looking for the proper rack and, if you want, a 5-conductor "harness.", "perch" restamped "151AL", and second terminal block for the base
151ALs usually have the upgraded capsule type receivers (706A) and transmitters (625A) -- but that's up to the owner at this point.
Thanks so much. That is really interesting information. I did persistently have trouble with the dial not breaking dial tone with the three connections as per the WR diagram. It behaved the same way with or without R and BB connected. Connecting the fourth lead of the four conductor from R on the 302 base to R on the dial restored dial function but seems to have silenced the ringer. I don't know enough to know if this makes sense or not. I haven't examined the transmitter to see what type it is. I really appreciate your expertise and willingness to share it. Happy New Year.
I haven't been following this very lengthily thread closely so I'm not certain if this will help with whatever issues are currently being dealt with. This topic has also been thoroughly discussed over the years on the TCI listserv so a review of their archives may reveal additional information.
The 1937 issue of C63.373 BSP from the TCI Library was updated in 1946 with an Addendum showing how to modify an anti-sidetone subset for use with an sidetone instrument.
It appears that due to transmission requirements, the only restrictions were that other sets could not share the same subset, as had often been the previous practice for some types of sidetone extensions.
I suspect that this should not be a problem in today's collector environment.
ISTR that the War Related (WR-63.373) version which was first uploaded by a TCI member, circa 2009, directly to the TCI Listserv, also addressed this issue.
Quote from: G-Man on January 04, 2024, 08:17:23 AMI haven't been following this very lengthily thread closely so I'm not certain if this will help with whatever issues are currently being dealt with. This topic has also been thoroughly discussed over the years on the TCI listserv so a review of their archives may reveal additional information.
The 1937 issue of C63.373 BSP from the TCI Library was updated in 1946 with an Addendum showing how to modify an anti-sidetone subset for use with an sidetone instrument.
It appears that due to transmission requirements, the only restrictions were that other sets could not share the same subset, as had often been the previous practice for some types of sidetone extensions.
I suspect that this should not be a problem in today's collector environment.
ISTR that the War Related (WR-63.373) version which was first uploaded by a TCI member, circa 2009, directly to the TCI Listserv, also addressed this issue.
G-Man,
Everyone then and now was looking at a different issue (meaning release or version, not a different problem)...I had found the BSP section or addendum with *2* diagrams rather than the NYT addendum in TCI library that shows the black 195A condenser conductor permanently connected to L2Y.
As I suggested to Jack privately, the better solution would be IMO to purchase a sidetone subset such as 534A. After all, that war is over.
One can connect several sidetone desk stands (20AL, 50AL, 51AL) and/or hand telephone sets (102) to a single sidetone subset. And/or add 202s, 151ALs, etc by taping and storing the black conductor of the mounting cord or desk stand cord.
Install the 534A in a central location where best heard by the subscriber. But install the one or multiple 20AL or 51AL or 102s at the best location for the convenience of the subscriber