I have started this thread to inform collectors about how to spot reproduction or "fake" candlesticks. Potential buyers should first do their homework at this site:
http://www.oldphoneman.com/Fakes.htm (http://www.oldphoneman.com/Fakes.htm)
Please keep in mind that most sellers on eBay are unaware that they have a fake candlestick for sale
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-K0k3U6dIdjw/TYFf4LDNOII/AAAAAAAAUOg/3EqznTwz4P4/s500/%24%28KGrHqUOKjUE1m-uEGZ5BNfnSVCEkQ~~_12.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2MefuMJdEuE/TYFfdBI9zPI/AAAAAAAAUOU/YQjo5Dt8wyY/s547/%21CE4%29bIgEWk~%24%28KGrHqUOKjkE0fYIlIneBNTYYE1NF%21~~_3.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-TurEAzBUDnc/TYFe24x-obI/AAAAAAAAUOI/qdY6FQnUv9E/s729/%21CEHtCV%21EGk~%24%28KGrHqV%2C%21hkE0gOVLbJCBNQ2u1LUL%21~~_3.jpg)
Here is a classic Korean fake:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130796813718
If you read the fine print it is listed as a reproduction. I always find that putting such information in the title helps prevent any confusion.
Antique type dial candlestick telephone -WORKING! ready to plug in and call !
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-tuen5d_gyCM/UJZ8YELThCI/AAAAAAAAYuc/Taa12vPb4Fc/s512/%2524%2528KGrHqF%252C%2521qUFB%252CDn%252B%2521HMBQlbsOq%252BF%2521%257E%257E60_57.JPG)
The 2nd stick down, the black ae 21. Why is that one a fake?
Thank you!
Very informational for those of us who haven't worked with sticks or just beginning to look at them. I could spot a lot of fakes but this adds a whole new level of what to look for, or watch out for when checking out a stick.
The black one is not a fake .It is an Autelco rebuild. This was part of AE and rebuilt sets of different makes using AE conversion parts.During WWll sets were hard to get so you could get your non dial sets converted to dial and put back inti service.
Robby
This one was throwing up all sorts of red flags for me.
http://tinyurl.com/bmn8smr
<edit> Pictures posted below at reply #9
You're right.
The Nov 1910 date is a made up one.
There is no tag on the front of the transmitter.
The dial is Automatic Electric.
It is polished brass not painted black.
The rivet on the hook is too close to the handle (stem).
The cord entrance is not right.
The hook goes down too far.
Let's add:
Felt cover was redone with an odd color
Screws in the base are not the original style, and they don't all seem to be the same
Add to the AE dial the fact that the number card has "area Code" on it, which is conceivable but not likely that a deskstand phone was in active use at the time area codes were being presented to the public in the 1960's
The receiver is the later model that holds the HA1 receiver element. I forget the model of receiver....795, perhaps. This is the most likely of all the variations, since these were a later replacement widely used, but usually went along with a bulldog transmitter. And what the heck is the subset pictured?
I don't have a repro receiver here to look at, but the receiver pictured may be repro. In any case, all 706A receivers are supposed to have the hill-and-dale recevier cap. The correct cap has the same threads as the cap for an F-type handset but looks different.
These caps were made so that if the howler tone was sent out by the central office to remind the subscriber to hang up, the tone could be heard even if the receiver was upright with its cap down on a table or desk.
Exception: 706As were made by Northern Electric until about 1973 (until Norm Frost decided to discontinue them) and the later ones had the same cap as F- handsets.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-kxMlaoLUnSU/UKLV5uZ5G_I/AAAAAAAAYwc/OkpwFwUHndU/s128/1-11-12-12_telephone.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cEhep4RmFp4/UKLWSQi3hOI/AAAAAAAAYww/q2O3wckRJlU/s128/1-11-12-12_telephone_c.JPG)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/140885080500 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/140885080500)
A classic Frankenphone. A mixture of authentic WE parts and repro parts
Only thing that looks WE to me is the 5H dial, 20AL lug holder (perch) and maybe the handle (stem).
Quote from: Sargeguy on November 13, 2012, 06:22:09 PM
A classic Frankenphone. A mixture of authentic WE parts and repro parts
Was it really worth the $249 plus shipping? If so, why? Just trying to learn.
Quote from: TelePlay on November 22, 2012, 11:22:48 AM
Was it really worth the $249 plus shipping? If so, why? Just trying to learn.
My take is that someone who just wants an antique phone for some room in their house, and who doesn't know squat about the phones is quite likely to pay that amount, since they probably haven't done any research into the authenticity or the pricing. Probably someone who will spend $250 for a decoration or a novelty for their house just as readily as I would spend money on a diet Coke.
I also think these buyers are exactly the kinds of buyers the sellers of the fake phones are looking for. They will get their phone and be perfectly happy with it, regardless of its lack of authenticity. Ignorance is bliss.
Unfortunately, some collectors will sometimes get burned by one of these.
well, I thought I'd add this.... Has anyone seen the candlestick phones on Ebay being sold by The Antique House? these are new reproductions out of all places.....INDIA! they look pretty but I would'nt want anything like those in my house... what are your thoughts on this question.... oh yeh, they are listed in the 1940-1969 section....
They are poorly constructed and wired in series. Dials are ITI copys of the British type 24 dial.Dials removed from Bakelite ITI 332 sets.These sets are getting worse not better.Sometimes marked Western Electric London or GEC General Electric
I am merging this into the fake candlestick thread for future reference
Okay I have a question. We see and talk a lot about reproduction and Korean fake 50ALs and 51ALs, and dial type desk stand phones. But what about the Pre-Dial? Has anyone replicated or knocked off say the 20AL brass or 40AL steel base stands that we know of? In all my research I never seen any reference, pictures, or the likes of replicated or fake Pre-Dial WE phone bases. Even on ebay. Im talking about an actual clone of the below pictured base. Maybe there isn't any? Of course the other parts of the phone can be fakes such as transmitter face, cup, handlepole, etc, but just speaking now about the perch and base. I have been see very good knock off replicated nickel plated Kellogg transmitter cups lately on ebay. The picture below is of course an actual 20AL base and not a reproduction...but just showing too see if anyone has ever spoted a repro of the WE 20/40 series bases.
I haven't seen any. On the other hand, there are a lot of the non-dial bases available-- Some sellers replace the original non-dial base with a fake dial base, then claim the converted phone is "all original" or "mostly old."
Yeah same. I'm thinking the dial less ones aren't as popular to make a replicated base because the WE pre-dials aren't as much in demand collectors wise. Maybe because they lack a dial or ability to add a dial so outside of showing or using it for incoming calls only the phone can't be used for calling out. I see a lot of the WE 20 and 40 series go for cheap or not sell at all on ebay.
I'm seeing that too with the dial replicated bases. Or a WE phone on a AE dial base. Than its being sold as original even though the base itself is a new replicated one or mixed phone. Same for the receiver hook. It takes away from the art of collecting, and ruins it for those that really want an original 5X model desk stand. Ebay wise it can be hard to tell if it's a really clean and shinny original 5X base or an identical replicated one (especially if the seller decides to black paint the replicated base than mark it up a bit to look older than it is. It was recently...some time end of last year I believe...I saw people bidding like crazy on one of those Korean fakes.
Here's a replicated produced base being sold on ebay right now designed be added to the non-dial or missing base of a 5X/151 mode; although its titled as being a replicated base, but looks almost identical to the original 51 bases:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Reproduction-Western-Electric-Candlestick-Dial-Base-/180581978827?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item2a0b8652cb
On ebay, many times a real Western Electric dial candlestick will go cheap if it is stripped down to the bare brass. Because many of these were made into lamps, the wiring harness is usually gone and the perch and hookswitch contacts may be mutilated.
Oh yeah totally. It seems that almost any 20AL-302 phone that has no modular cord or the cords missing/cut off sell for like 50-75 percent cheaper than the ones that have them on and "ready to use". I bidded on but lost (by like $2.00 but no big deal) a 533A that sold for $81.00 in December. Simply because the the receiver and modular cord was missing. Otherwise it was almost mint looking inside even the paper diagram was fully/clean attached. Well...maybe because it was dialess might have had a reseaon too...but yes...untouched seems to far cheaper, and for the person that can add a cord or fix a wrong wire it's a great steal. Same for subsets.
Repro bases do not have the patent dates.
All the repro WE-style bases I have seen have the same patent dates as the real WE. Sometimes the letters are not as nice. Sometimes the 1s in JAN 1 18 are too close together (JAN 118). The one OPW is selling has the dates. Sometimes you can't use all 3 screws to mount the dial because the holes don't line up.
Here's the OPW picture from the listing linked preiously:
Yeah, I guess the newer repro bases have the pat dates (in the front) that are more closer to the original than past repro models.
Really? That stinks!
"Antique Western Electric Company Brass Candle Stick Phone Great Patina~ retro"
They call it "retro" not "repro"---I guess that's just a typo!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251209980674
This may be old info, but don't forget to check the cord grommet area on brass dial candlesticks. The repro. bases have a crude flattish grommet but the originals have a tight round lip edge that looks factory. Russell
Another Korean fake
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121418087875 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/121418087875)
Another Korean fake:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/B2909-Antique-Brass-Candlestick-Telephone-Patented-1920-w-Ringer-/400779302498?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d504ed662 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/B2909-Antique-Brass-Candlestick-Telephone-Patented-1920-w-Ringer-/400779302498?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d504ed662)
Here is a classic fake:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/331697138551? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/331697138551?) ( dead link 07-05-21 )
Brass or painted they still have the same November 1910 date!
Here's another reproduction candlestick that sold on Ebay. it's easy to pick these out from the authentic phones, so why did it sell for so high? $255 + shipping. The only part that looks like it might be authentic is the dial - the ringer box looks pretty good, but it's not a Western Electric as the label indicates. I kind of like how they mounted the transformer, but they left out the condenser for the receiver, and only installed a Cap for the ringer. Candlestick worth $50, ringer $205? Even the receiver is a repro.
Is there a market for fakes, that people are willing to pay more than an original is worth?
Fake 51AL (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-WESTERN-ELECTRIC-BRASS-CANDLESTICK-PHONE-TELEPHONE-LOOK-NICE-/161927620964?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=rY8ZOYiFJjzUoMo52vEugs5B5oQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc)
more pics.
An expensive lesson!
Did anyone notice the 11-71 date on the receiver element?
Quote from: andre_janew on January 02, 2016, 12:25:05 PM
Did anyone notice the 11-71 date on the receiver element?
But that's 1871, right??? ::)
That is the reproduction mouthpiece, it will accept any modern transmitter. I used a couple with a WE U-2!
The cup is always dated November 1910 on these repros.
That part couldn't have an 1871 date. I thought the telephone wasn't invented until 1876!
Here's a great example, and a matching FAKE subset. I love the fake bells and clapper, when you can clearly see the c4a 500 ringer just underneath it:
www.ebay.com/itm/371686848869
This was a bit of a test I set myself really. I've taken the exam, now I need those of you with more Candlestick experience to mark me please. ;)
Do you think this is an original, or a later replica? For various reasons I came to the conclusion it was a later replica, but would like to know if you knowledgeable folks agree.
I will reveal why I thought replica, and what this sold for, plus how many watchers later (as the latter two might be a bit of a clue - or not! :D ). Thanks. :)
Photos:
Not very familiar with Europen candlesticks but from the look of the reciever I would say repro.
Replica, though probably from the early 1970's so arguably "Vintage" in its own right. The originals had a pressed steel base.
I agree with what has already been said. If it's a genuine GPO phone from the UK then the base and column should be steel and painted black. However most replicas don't have that old style cord, nor do they have an early dial (dial 10 or 12). However I seem to remember there was someone around in the 60s or 70s making pretty convincing rteplicas using a lot of genuine ex-GPO parts. So my guess is very early replica, possibly from the 1960s. However if you have a close look at that dial you may well find a much earlier date.
This web link will take you to a web site that provides an overview of fake or reproduction British candlestick telephones, and what to look for in order to identify them.
Link : http://www.britishtelephones.com/identify/candle1.htm
Jeff Lamb
The ones made with GPO co-operation were to celebrate the Century of the Telephone and were made by Telephone Lines, then of Cheltenham.
A lot come from India but again they are all brass and marked GEC. The 24C dial usually gives those away, but they could have been changed for a British one at some point.
the rec has a crease and is brass Orig has hard rubber coating over brass and a smooth curve.Brass body and stem and dial are replacements.Hook out of alignment .Difficult to do this on an origionl with out total dismantling.Cant see well in photos but any markings on the lug assy hex cap nuts, not slotted
Replica:
1. Base should be painted steel and not brass.
2. Receiver shape looks wrong - the end should flare-out smoothly, not with a distinct starting point.
3. Solid-back transmitter looks too deep and has no markings.
4. Receiver cord is wrong - should be thin 2-core twist (but these are often changed).
5. Dial should be No 10 or earlier (it's a No 12), but again these often get changed.
6. Nut holding the transmitter is brass - originals were steel.
:)
Thanks all. I got it right then, yay (and phew) - I'm learning! :D
The things I spotted that pointed towards it being a replica were brass, not steel as its base metal (the Ebonite could have worn away). No slots on hinge nut, wrong shape receiver, and no numbers or other marking to top of stem assembly.
Thanks for the additional info guys, some good pointers on your replies that I would not have known to look for.
I thought some darn good touches there though to try and make it look older than it is inc the GPO dial, the old frayed cords, the 'patina', and the broken wall attachment.
Sold for £51 plus £8 shipping, 6 bids, 12 watchers.
If anyone else gets the time to set one of these 'Original or Replica' tests on here I think they might be a good learning curve for some of us (me), and very handy as a future reference. Nice and easy to find too, all on this one website. :)
Quote from: FabPhones on June 12, 2018, 04:59:09 PM
Sold for £51 plus £8 shipping, 6 bids, 12 watchers.
Somebody definitely over paid for that. If you put it in an antiques centre and were honest about it being an early replica, it would be worth about £20 - £25 and about £10 of that would be for the dial.
yes, and myself burned!
I purchased a fake about 5 years ago. But converted it to all WE parts. So I'll just wait until an empty shell shows up some day. In the mean time I did find this website.
D/P
http://www.oldphoneman.com/Fakes.htm