Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Identification, Repair & Restoration => Telephone Restoration Projects and Techniques => Discolored Plastic and Bakelite - Improving it Chemically => Topic started by: Dan/Panther on June 06, 2009, 01:09:45 AM

Title: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 06, 2009, 01:09:45 AM
I've taken the plunge and bought the materials for a peroxide dip for my faded Pink 500.
It's coated, sitting, and I'll know what happened in the morning.
I'll let you know how it turned out.
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Phonesrfun on June 06, 2009, 02:15:00 AM
Quote from: Dan/Panther on June 06, 2009, 01:09:45 AM
I've taken the plunge and bought the materials for a peroxide dip for my faded Pink 500.
It's coated, sitting, and I'll know what happened in the morning.
I'll let you know how it turned out.
D/P

Dan:

I have been following with some interest some of the things people have posted in the other forums about the process.  I have also painstakingly sanded, sanded, sanded, and polished, polished polished until I am blue in the face.  I will be very interested to know how it turns out.  I have an aqua hard plastic PVC 500 that has UV damaged receiver/transmitter caps.  I have already done the sanding and polishing routine on the rest of it.  I think it would be an interesting comparison to try the chemical version and compare the two methods.

There just has to be a better way than spending the hours and hours of sanding.

So, do take some pictures when you are finished.  Did you take any "before" shots?

-Bill
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan on June 06, 2009, 07:23:49 AM
I have never done a pink. I wouldn't go higher than 20%. I have a salmon pink that I may try. I have had great success with whites , however. Good luck and please post pics
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: McHeath on June 06, 2009, 11:08:47 AM
Yes I also look forward to your results.  I've not done this method but agree that it would sure be nice to find another method than the endless sanding routine. 
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: HobieSport on June 06, 2009, 01:29:55 PM
Dan/Panther, I have a couple of yellowed aqua WE 500s from the early 60's and an aqua Trimline, all in need of the peroxide treatment, which is new to me.  Could you post a list of the materials and methods?  It would be much appreciated.

Here's a pic of my 3-60 aqua.  As you can see it is faded compared to the color of the dial plate.  It would be great to get it closer to the original color with the peroxide if that's possible.  I'd like to avoid a lot of sanding.

I'll get a new cord for it from Old Phone Works.
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 06, 2009, 02:40:43 PM
When I first saw the phone in the Ebay ad, I wasn't sure if it was Pink or Beige, So I went for it. $4.99, later it arrived.
When it arrived it was obviously Pink but quite yellowed.
Here is the before shot and after the treatment with 20% Hydrogen peroxide.
I left the coat on over night, so it worked on the color for about 7 hours.
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 06, 2009, 02:48:34 PM
BTW, the cord I tried a small section hidden inside the body of the phone, No difference after the treatment.
So apparently it won't work on the cords.
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Steve on June 06, 2009, 03:00:34 PM

D/P, that phone came out great. is any yellowing left? did it come out looking like the inside?
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 06, 2009, 03:14:31 PM
Steve;
I would guess it's 90% of the inside color.
I'm very, very pleased with results.
I'm debating whether I should give it another treatment.

D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dennis Markham on June 06, 2009, 03:23:00 PM
Dan, is the pink phone hard or soft plastic?
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 06, 2009, 03:28:22 PM
Dennis;
It's all soft plastic.
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: HobieSport on June 06, 2009, 04:15:47 PM
Where can I buy hydrogen peroxide gel?  I want to try this on my aqua phones!
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dennis Markham on June 06, 2009, 04:32:41 PM
Hobie, check out this thread.  All the info may be here:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=745.msg11023#msg11023

Thanks for the info Dan.  We will be watching for your results with interest.  I think it was Finlover that said too much peroxide on the soft plastic can leave it covered with a white residue that is more difficult to get off than the yellowing. 
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: foots on June 06, 2009, 05:10:18 PM
I have all of the stuff to mix up the gel. Most stuff found at Sally's beauty supply - I got both 20% for my light blue wall phone, my white 500s handset,  as well as 40% to use on my white 500. I couldn't find Arrow Root stuff so I got regular corn starch insted. I just need to find time to mix this stuff up and brush it on.
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 06, 2009, 05:35:33 PM
I started with 20% Hydrogen Peroxide, Arrowroot, and Arm and Hammer soda wash. I mixed according to the formula that Dan posted, to dilute the 20% down to about 15%.
I didn't see any white spots, and was very pleased with the color change. I don't think I would change anything with the formula.
The solution once it dries, can be hard to wash off, I used a fine scotchbrite type pad to rub everything down. I rinsed in soapy warm water.
I think I will try regular corn starch next batch. Arrowroot is not real exspensive  but a $4.00 bottle will make maybe 5 or 6 batches. I bought mine at a food supply outlet, not a grocery store, it's double in price at the grocery store.

D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Steve on June 06, 2009, 05:55:59 PM

I may try this on my turquoise 554. it's not as bad as the before photos that you guys are posting.
a step by step tutorial with photos would be great in the tech section here. 
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: bingster on June 06, 2009, 05:59:35 PM
What do you do about the ultra-violet light, or do you find that part isn't necessary?
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 06, 2009, 06:46:39 PM
I do have a couple UV lights but I didn't use them. I might try that on a white Princess I'm going to do next.
Wait I forgot, before I do the Princess, I plan to do my teeth.
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan on June 06, 2009, 06:54:18 PM
Dan/p, looks like the 15-20% will work. Others please observe the thread Dennis has referred to. Dan/P I know when the stuff dries it is somewhat hard to get off, but if you soak it in a hot bucket of water for about 10 minutes, the stuff comes off easily with a wash rag.

According to an earlier post by finlover, he had less success with a moss green. I did too and overdid it with 40% and made the frosty phone. I got the camera back and will finally repost the picture, Dennis , I believe requested it a few weeks ago. .

So far it looks like Pink and white are good with this technique. white can go up to 40% , while pink should stay 15 -20.

WHAT IS ESPECIALLY EXCITING TO ME ABOUT YOUR CASE DAN/P IS THAT YOUR PHONE LOOKS faded, not yellowed. So the "fade' is actually reversed or actually the yellowing process faded a pink phone and the peroxide removed the yellow fading and brought out the pink..

I will do my Salmon pink one. It is hard plastic. I can compare it to yours Dan/p. Pictures to come sunday or monday. Thanks
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan on June 06, 2009, 06:55:32 PM
PS Dan/P, I AM a dentist, i HOPE YOU ARE kidding about your teeth!
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: JorgeAmely on June 06, 2009, 07:17:59 PM
Dan/P:

Can I send you my set of false teeth? They are kind of cruddy with all the tobacco and Diet Pepsi I have been burning and ingesting the last 40 years!

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: HobieSport on June 06, 2009, 08:06:29 PM
Quote from: Steve
a step by step tutorial with photos would be great in the tech section here.  

Yes indeedy!  I mean for phones.  Not the teeth. ;)

Has anyone tried the peroxide gel method on an aqua phone?
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: McHeath on June 06, 2009, 10:12:42 PM
Or turquoise?  Or red? 
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan on June 06, 2009, 10:31:43 PM
I have tried it on an aqua, worked well. This was before I figured out how to do digital pics.

I did a moss green in 40% as a guinea pig and it was way too strong. Here's the pic I promised Dennis a LONG time ago.


(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/oldbakelite2.jpg)

here's a yellowed Pink pre peroxide

(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/Pink1965WE500pre-peroxide002.jpg)


It's gonna go overnight in a solution around 17% under a 100 watt bulb. I'll post the after pictures tomorrow.It is in pretty good shape really, but I bet after seeing Dan/Panther's pink one, it will be perfect!
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan on June 06, 2009, 10:42:07 PM
Here's a white pre peroxide

(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/badilyyellowedphone.jpg)

Post peroxide

(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/whitephone001.jpg)

I even whitened the vinyl cord with this one, so it will work on vinyl (it did for me here)
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Steve on June 06, 2009, 10:44:05 PM
 You should list that green one on ebay as " RARE! marbleized two tone moss green!"  and " the only one I have ever seen in my years of collecting!"
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: JorgeAmely on June 07, 2009, 01:15:03 AM
Dan:

I see a business opportunity here. Are you taking any orders?  ;D
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Steve on June 07, 2009, 01:24:34 AM
 That moss green phone is leaps and bounds better than some on ebay right now.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/loknw4
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 07, 2009, 01:28:20 AM
Here are my Next Peroxide Victims..
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 07, 2009, 01:32:55 AM
Dan;
I'm anxious to see how it turns out as it's not real bad the way it is.
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan on June 07, 2009, 06:53:52 AM
Good morning. I am very pleased with the results. I wiped of the phones and lightly hit them with a little turtle wax F21. Gorgeous!

Caps underside for comparison:



(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/Pinkpostperoxide.jpg)

Caps post peroxide

(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/Pinkpostperoxide001.jpg)

Underside of housing for comparison


(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/Pinkpostperoxide002.jpg)



(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/Pinkpostperoxide003.jpg)

Prewhitening final shot 

(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/Pink1965WE500pre-peroxide002.jpg)


[Post whitening final shot

(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/Pinkpostperoxide004.jpg)

The only yellow left is the cord and the dial card!. If you want to shrink these, pics feel free. I don't know how to do this! I think the cord must be done now!
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan on June 07, 2009, 07:06:49 AM
Hey Dan/Panther. You will LOVE how white ones work out. That's what pumped me up the most. I have done 5 white ones and a princess. I just haven't got around to selling them yet.
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dennis Markham on June 07, 2009, 11:03:45 AM
Dan, thanks for the photos.  Nice results.  I'm looking forward to experimenting with this myself. 
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: JorgeAmely on June 07, 2009, 12:14:53 PM
I am sold on it!

How much for a jar?
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Phonesrfun on June 07, 2009, 01:09:49 PM
Hi folks:

I went to the store(s) yesterday and bought all the ingredients and made up a batch last night.  I have a white hard plastic 500 body, handset, caps, and dial number ring that have been sitting now for about 12 hours.  The first four I routinely re-wetted it; then I went to bed.

It just has not progressed very far, and the phone was not the worst in the world, by any means to begin with.  So, I am looking for suggestions before I mix up the next batch.


I used the "Lorne's Recepe" from the Retr0Bright website at www.retr0bright.wikispaces.com/Retr0Bright+Gel (http://www.retr0bright.wikispaces.com/Retr0Bright+Gel)

Here are the ingedients I used:

Hydrogen Peroxide 40 diluted with half again as much water to hopefully make 30% (200ml and 100ml respectively)
2 level teaspoons of Xanthan Gum
1 teaspoon of Glycerin
1/4 teaspoon of OxiClean

I used this method because the idea of pre-mixing the OxiClean in just a tiny bit of warm water to get it to better dissolve made sense to me.

I even went to the Goodwill to get a junker blender for the project.   :)

I brushed it on with at paintbrush; dutifully wore rubber gloves, and I did not attempt any do-it-myself teeth whitening.  After all, I am an accountant; not a dentist.

It was about 75 in the house all night long, so I imagined that would be warm enough to do without any other heat source.

I do not have a UV lamp, and I did this at night so there was no UV source or any additional heat source, other than room temp.  Myabe I need to do this during the day outside, but the last few days here in Eastern Washington State, we have had thunderstorms, so there has not been much sun.

So,  I am wondering why it did not go as expected.  Here are some things I am wondering about:

1.  The Oxi part of the receipe seems so small compared to the rest.  But I am no chemist, so what the heck.
2.  Do I need a heat source?
3.  What about UV?  I have seen more than one person write to say that it works without.

So, that's my story and I ain't changin it.

-Bill
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 07, 2009, 03:30:47 PM
Bill;
First, I think most everyone here has been using the formula Dan posted.
I don't use no stinking Oxyclean, I used Soda Wash, I think it's basically Sodium Carbonate, NOT sodium BIcarbonate.
Secondly, the light source is not so much for heat as it is for the light. The process is light activated, but I did not use a light source because honestly, I overlooked that part. The Dentist uses UV light to help the process along. I had great results without the light. However and I don't know if this was good enough, I have a flourescent light over my kitchen sink which is on all night, the phone was under that light.
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Phonesrfun on June 07, 2009, 03:39:19 PM
Thank you D/P.

I will go get some Arm and Hammer washing soda, and I will put this under a flourescent light.  I'll use the formula that seems to work for everyone else.

Results to follow....

-Bill
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: HobieSport on June 07, 2009, 03:49:18 PM
Has anyone tried using direct sunlight as a UV activator?  Just wondering.
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan on June 07, 2009, 03:59:14 PM
I have done the sun, but I prefer a 100 watt bulb, it is more consistant and controlled .
I am only doing  one  handset voice cap and leaving the earcap alone for comparison sake on a 1956 WE500 soft ivory. If I like the results, I'll do the whole phone. I'll be glad to take detailed pictures of the entire process if you want this to be posted in the telephone troubleshooting and repair section. Let me know if you guys want this. I'll start on this tonight. I'm too excited about my 1950 I found today! Look @ the other thread.
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 07, 2009, 04:28:13 PM
Dan;
Just a suggestion.
If you decide to document the process, show the entire process, right from photos of the materials, before and after shots of the phone etc.

D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan on June 07, 2009, 04:43:00 PM
I will do it precisely as you say
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 07, 2009, 05:00:13 PM
Dan;
Just suggestions, I'm a nobody around here.... ;D
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan on June 07, 2009, 06:05:59 PM
You are not sir! I put up a brand new thread in the "telephone troubleshooting and repair" section called  Peroxide Treatment Detailed instructions. Hopefully others will learn how fun it is to get'em purty like we have!
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 08, 2009, 01:24:35 PM
I've done my white Princess twice, both overnight applications.
The phone is considerably whiter, however it still has a slight yellow tint.
I'm not getting the dramatic yellow to pure white I see in others photos. The Princess is hard plastic, whereas my Pink phone was soft, is that the difference ?
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: JorgeAmely on June 08, 2009, 01:29:38 PM
To those that have done the peroxide treatment, I am curious to know if the original shine and finish goes away or stays.

Do you still recommend polishing with Novus or similar products?
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 08, 2009, 01:43:06 PM
Jorge;
As Far as the teeth......Our motto here a Peroxide restorers is.

"You ship Em, We'll Strip Em."

D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan on June 08, 2009, 06:29:24 PM
Quote from: JorgeAmely on June 08, 2009, 01:29:38 PM
To those that have done the peroxide treatment, I am curious to know if the original shine and finish goes away or stays.

Do you still recommend polishing with Novus or similar products?

My shine is still there, I don't need novus because the phone was waxed prior to whitening. I do hit it with a little F21 turtle wax "phone Armoral" afterwards and it's back to it was previously. You could bleach first on a rough phone and polish secondly, it would make an interesting variable.
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 09, 2009, 03:20:02 PM
I did a third treatment on my white Princess, and finally got the thing as white outside, as it is inside, with NO yellowing anywhere.
I was beginning to think it wasn't going to work 100% on hard plastic. I used the 20% HP, and applied it 3 times.
When I get the phone back together I'll post some photos.
This opens up a whole new world of prospects for collectors.
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: JorgeAmely on June 09, 2009, 03:48:55 PM
Pre peroxide treatment suggestion:

I would give these plastics a really good scrub and wash with a detergent soap and warm water. Some of us use goops, waxes, sun protection concoctions that may work against the peroxide. In other words, the peroxide may lose some punch in going through layers before it reaches the plastic.

Just a thought ... from a nobody around here.



Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 09, 2009, 07:32:05 PM
Jorge;
I agree, I soak mine and scrub in warm dishsoap. then blow dry with compressed air. It's actually not compressed air, as you imagine, it's a turbo blower for Dog grooming, It has two speeds, Hurricane, and Typhoon, and heat.
I've never had a run of the mill home compressor with this much punch. It has back to back turbo blowers, 2" hose reduced to a one inch nozzle. It will move a complete 500 across the floor like a feather. We bought it for dog grooming when we had our kennel, it's made by Airforce, and cost $350.00.
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan on June 09, 2009, 07:41:25 PM
Nice to hear it took you three times @ 20% Dan/Panther.This is consistant with my results.  That was what my early white ones were doing too(one took 4 times). The 40% helped on the white for me (and I only recommend this on the white.)and cut the time in half.
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 10, 2009, 04:08:43 PM
I'm posting this to both threads on bleaching phones as it may be important.
Bill, Dan;
I have the same colored Princess as Bill tried the method on. The receiver cap which is not original to the phone and slightly more yellow, has had 3 treatments with very little change. The body of the phone is better but like Bill points out seems to be fading along with the yellow. I do not see how this method is going to show an aqua phone bright aqua again like original.
I also have found a very thin crust, of a very hard like material that can be scraped off with a finger nail, and appears to be like a coating has formed in crevasses. Just procede with caution on exspensive phones. Treat at your own risk so to speak. Do we really know what we are doing here. We may find later on that the plastic truns brittle, or begins to flake, we just don't know.
The first photo is after 3 treatments, the second, and I don't know if it will show up well or at all, is the crazing I found. It appears as spokes from the center out.
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 11, 2009, 01:42:22 AM
I'm beginning to lean toward the thought that the Hydrogen Peroxide method works on phones that have had environmental discoloration such as smoking, and cooking vapors in the home. I think that phones that are faded or yellowed by UV rays, are hopelessly destined to be yellow, or a faded shell of their original color.
I base this on two phones. One a pink 500, that though I have removed the yellow color, the shell will not polish up to the original pink on the inside.
Secondly, a Blue princess that I replaced the receiver cap with one from another phone. The other parts have been returned to near original color, but the cap from a suspected UV faded phone will NOT turn blue, after 4 treatments. I don't know what to think at this point.
Someone mentione it is a bleaching process, and I'm beginning to agree.
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 11, 2009, 02:04:34 AM
Here is the same cap, after 5, 6 hour treatment, 3 of them using a black light.. Folks it ain't gettin any better than this.
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Phonesrfun on June 11, 2009, 03:57:28 AM
I agree.  White is great and it works great on the smoking-type yellowing, but I think the UV damage on all but white phones goes too deep, and has actually chemically changed the plastic.  The darker the original color of the phone, the more likely overall lightening will be evident.   Sanding may be able to get beneath the damage, but again, it depends on the extent (therfore the depth) of the damage.

I did some more on my white or beige or something?? Princess today, and the results were generally good.  I also had it out in the direct sunlight all day today with the gel on it.  Today was a very sunny day, and we are approaching the summer solstace, so I cannot get any better UV than that.

Even though I say the results were genreally good, it still does not get all of it.  This was treatment #2.  It is much, much better than it started, but I just do not think this treatment is the silver bullet we would like it to be.

-Bill
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan on June 11, 2009, 10:29:31 AM
Bill, you may have to go three and even four times.
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Phonesrfun on June 11, 2009, 12:27:16 PM
I will.  I thought a bit more about that last night and came to that same conclusion.  I assume you are talking about this light colored Princess. 

I am going to go out of town for a few days and when I get back, I will take it up again.

-Bill
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 11, 2009, 01:06:43 PM
This method defineately works on white phones and will remove yellowing from most other colors. I just don't want people to be over zealous and do damage to one of your expensive phones. It appears that the darker the phone, it will remove yellowing, but will also lightly fade the original color. It may polish right up to original, it's just at this point I'm not completely sure.
D/P
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: DavePEI on September 22, 2012, 05:09:13 PM
Hi All:

I tried giving my wife the gel treatment, now her hair is bleached, but she just about killed me! She's definitely an oldie, so I thought.... ;)

Dave
Title: Re: I'm giving an oldie the gel treatment.
Post by: AE_Collector on September 22, 2012, 05:14:48 PM
Wrong forum Dave.....

Terry