About a year ago, I got a GPO Candlestick #150 off Craigslist. It is hooked up to a WE 685A subset and has a bakelite Kellogg reciever with a modern ITT earpiece transmitter. So it's a bit of a mutt.
The problem is , if you plug it in you can dial out ok, but the phone will not hang up. The hookswitch and cradle , it you jiggle it, always stay on. I think it is a contact issue. When I have worked on electromechanical pinball machines, I have cleaned the contacts to get it to work, but I was wondering if this is similar?
Perhaps Stephen or Scott (GPO man) could help me. It looks like a daunting task to take these apart. Here's a website to help you and give information. Thanks.
http://www.britishtelephones.com/candle1.htm
Dan,
Sam Hallas also has information on stripping down a 150 in the 'Let's take a phone to bits' section of his site; there's a link to it on this page:
http://www.samhallas.co.uk/telecomms.htm (http://www.samhallas.co.uk/telecomms.htm)
I have to admit that I've never seen the inside of one; mine has not arrived yet, though the cheque has just shown up on my bank statement, so it should be here soon. Sounds most likely to be a hook switch issue, but it's possible that there's a leakage through it somewhere that's drawing enough current for the exchange to think it's off-hook when it's not.
Does it seize the line as soon as you plug it in, or only when you take the receiver off-hook? Is it wired up correctly? Sam's 'take it to bits' document includes the wiring diagram from N250; Is yours connected up the same way. I don't know anything about the WE 685A subset, is it reasonably similar to the Bellset 1 or 25 shown in N250? I believe that the British candlesticks were very similar to the American ones, and indeed some of the earlier ones were actually imported from AE. Many of the 150s were converted from earlier, non-auto models. Since the thing is made mainly of metal, unlike almost all of our later 'phones, is it possible that something's shorting out against the inside of the column?
I've never seen a candlestick actually in use, though some must have survived into my lifetime. Some of the next generation, the 162 pyramid 'phones were still around into the '70s. The British Railways 'Modernisation Plan' was launched in 1955. British Transport Films made a number of productions about it under the title 'Report on Modernisation'. The first of these was released in 1959, and the second in 1961, and in one of these, I think the first, There is a shot of the inside of the control tower of one of the new marshaling yards built under the plan, and closed within a few years. This 'new' installation featured a candlestick telephone. It was mounted on one of those extending criss-cross arm wall bracket things, which I've seen in old advertisments under the strange name of 'Wallygraph'. I suppose the column of a candlestick would be easy to attach to one of these; maybe that was why it was used at so late a date.
Dan:
I would say that the biggest problem is the subset. You are using a 685 which a more modern subset based on the network found in a model 500 telephone.
From the pictures in the link, the GPO 150 seems to be a pretty straight forward sidetone model similar to the WE 40 candlestick.
I am not saying that it could not be wired to the 685, but I would need to do some thinking to see how to adapt it, if possible.
If you could get your hands on a 584, 534,334, or 295 you may more success. If you have Meyer's book, you can see examples on pages 71 and 72.
To know for sure, I would need to see a daigram of the GPO candlestick. Does someone have access to the diagram of the GPO phone itself?
-Bill
Stephen, if you plug it in it comes alive just as if you plugged any modern phone in with a jack (with the receiver OFF the cradle). The phone always thinks it is off hook. You can dial with it, it transmits, people can hear me, I can hear them, but you can't hang it up. It can't receive calls because when you plug it in, it acts as if it is off hook all the time. The subset wiring looks good, the wall cord looks good. Inside the phone the wires are all connected in the base to a modern block.
The network is just like a WE 500 (425E actually). Here's some pictures.
Phonesrfun, Stephens link has a wiring diagram for this.
Another important thing to know is the seller siad he had to jiggle the hookswitch sometimes, but it worked great .
Telephone and subset
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/yardsale.jpg)
Network wiring and close up of network
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/yardsale006.jpg)
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/yardsale008.jpg)
Nice looking candlestick! Are you able to get at the hookswitch mechanism to see why it's misbehaving?
Dan:
The schematic is pretty standard. The schematic is of a regular sidetone phone which needs only three wires connected to the subset. Your photo shows four wires connected at the following points in the subset:
L1
L2
C
R
B
So, I have two questions:
First, can you take the phone apart and tell me to which terminals inside the phone each of those four wires are connected.
Second is more basic, and that is when you take the phone apart and look at the three contacts on the hookswitch, are all three springs opening up when the hook is in the down (hung-up) position? This might be the more important question.
-Bill
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it's the subset. The 685 is a much newer subset that's not designed to be used with telephones which require subsets. Those older types should use a 534, 584, 634, 684, or one of the oak boxes. If a 685 is used, there are several wiring changes that need to be made inside the phone to make the setup work. I'm thinking that the 685 has been used without the proper in-phone wiring modifications, or that the wiring in the subset is incorrect. Either way, I'm guessing the problem revolves around that subset.
Bill here's a picture of the block under the base. I don't know if this helps. I can slide the hookswitch off the stick, but the block with the electrical tape will have to be disconnected to get to the hook switch .(and that quite frankly, scares me a little bit--)
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/yardsale010.jpg)
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/yardsale009.jpg)
Bingster, the seller said the phone was wired by a pretty reputable guy (even though it looks sloppy to me) . He sold me the phone cheap because he hated the weight and overall talking on it.
Bill if you need me to unhook the wires off the electrical taped block to get to the hookswitch , I can do this .
Would the hookswitch contacts need to be rubbed clean (oxidation? )
Here's a picture of the block with the old electrical tape removed , if this helps (I CAN put back electrical tape, so I'm not too brave here)
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/yardsale011.jpg)
The two brown cords are from the receiver earpiece
Ay, yay, yay!
That phone has been heavily modified.
In order to check the switch, you will need unhook it and open it up. I agree, that is a scary proposition. However, in order to solve the problem, we need to first and foremost find out if the switches are opening. If that solves the problem, we may be able to stop there. However, if that doesn't solve it, we need to know if the phone was modified to operate with the 685 subset. The home-brew connecting block is an off the shelf thing that is not an original part of the phone, and as you can see, the newer wiring to the dial and to the switchhook are also not original.
So, it's up to you. BTW, I tend to agree with Bingster about the 685 not being compatible with the older sidetone (especially candlestick) phones for reason of where in realtion to the transmitter and receiver the hook switch is located and what parts of the phone are switched. There have been some threads about that in the club forums over the years, and I seem to remember that it either flat out won't work, or it will work but not optimally. I just studied the 425 network, and I cannot see a way to do it without some modifications.
It may be that the phone wiring was modified just for th 685. If that is the case, it may be that we can get it back to working again, but we are now trying to make sense out of someone else's work.
Not the news you wanted to hear.
-Bill
I'm going to get some masking tape and label all the wires so I can get them back in place once I get them unhooked off the block. I will then show you a switch pic because I don't know what it means when it opens up?
Here's the switch exposed.
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/sqwitch002.jpg)
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/sqwitch001.jpg)
Would the little blue and yellow area that is visible that has metal on the end which could be hitting the candle stick metal somehow be a problem? A guess. Also, if you see the little brown paper between the switch blades, it's loose and can be removed
So, the question is:
When the hook is in the on-hook (hung-up) position, do the contacts open up completely?
Also check to see that the soldered-on connectors are not inadvertantly touching each other, which would have the same effect as a switch that does not open.
Lastly, can you make out what that reddish or rust colored square thing is in-between two of the contact? It appears that it is holding at least one set of contacts permanently open. It may have been modified on purpose to do this.
Is it within your realm of your patience to map out where each wire is connected within the phone and to the block and also to the wires going to the 685?
It may be that the guy modified the switch to go to the 685 the way a 685 is needing it. That may be why he has only one set of contacts working. But do check to see that they open up when the hook is down.
-Bill
The contacts do open up completely when it is hung up(the top two leaf layers move from closed to open) . The red rust square does hold the contacts (layers two and three of the leaf switches) permanently open , but can be removed. Will this mean if I take it out, the phone will hang up? Maybe this piece of paper is the problem?
I think that the rust colored insulator is not the problem. The problem is that something is remaining closed, and the paper is holding that section of the switch open. I rather think that it is part of a modification for the 685 subset, so I would not remove it. The more likely thing at this point is that there are some wires touching that should not be. Can you at least map out where the connectors to the two springs that are opening and closing actually are connected?
An alternative would be to have you box up the phone and send it here and I could look at it. Other than that, all we can do is dig deeper.
-Bill
Leaf switch #1 wire coloured green and yellow goes to the 425 E network at the spot labelled RR, while leaf switch #2 yellow in color goes to the block (aftermarket ) and then continues s to F on the network (most likely) (another yellow wire goes to L2 , less likely the switch wire)
Does this help? You are going way overboard for me, I really APPRECIATE it!
Actually, this is telling me that the switches are indeed modified to be used on the 685.
I have a hunch and I need to look at the 685 schematic, but I am needing to sign off tonight. I think we can get this done....
Let's continue tomorrow.
-Bill
Goodnight, I'll catch you tomorrow, and thanks
here's a schematic (with a 202 connected)
http://www.telephonecollectors.org/library/weco/202-685.pdf
Quote from: Dan on August 08, 2009, 09:13:17 PM
Another important thing to know is the seller siad he had to jiggle the hookswitch sometimes, but it worked great .
I disagree that this is an important thing to know. If he had to 'jiggle the hookswitch' then it didn't work great, did it? Was the seller telling the truth? Were they somebody you know; would you consider them to be reliable? Maybe they just decided to get rid of it because it wasn't reliable; maybe it was working for them, but in moving it to you something has moved, and is shorting out somewhere. I don't like the look of that soldered joint; it looks like it could touch the metalwork when the 'phone is assembled.
QuoteBingster, the seller said the phone was wired by a pretty reputable guy (even though it looks sloppy to me) . He sold me the phone cheap because he hated the weight and overall talking on it.
It looks sloppy to me as well. I was going to say that you really needed to trace where all of the wires go, and draw up a new schematic to see how the circuit is actually connected, but I'm beginning to doubt that there's any point. You can't tell anything from the colours of the wires, because they're new, and not the same colours as the originals. Frankly, I think this looks like a badly done conversion, and I think you need to start again.
The 150 contains nothing other than the receiver, transmitter, hookswitch and, if fitted, dial. Receivers and transmitters are pretty standard, even if they've been replaced by modern ones; the size and shape may change, but they each have just two wires to connect, and are electrically compatible. The dial seems to be a number 10 slipping cam model, which would be correct for this 'phone, but was also used on later ones, such as my 232. A switch is a switch; as long as it has enough n/o and n/c contacts, it should work.
I think the best option may be to strip all of the 'new' wiring (make a note of which wire goes where, in case you need to put it back) and start again. The N250 diagram will tell you which terminals on the dial are the pulse and shunt contacts, the transmitter and receiver have only two terminals each, and it doesn't matter which way round they are connected. By looking at the hookswitch you should be able to see which terminals open and close when the 'phone goes off-hook.
By using that subset you won't have a 150, you'll have a different 'phone, an anti-sidetone one, but this may be an advantage if you want to actually use it. Using a diagram of a 202 circuit work out how and where to connect each component to the subset. Check the hookswitch contacts, make sure that they all make/break when they should. Connect it up neatly, insulate anything hat could possibly short out, secure the cords so that they're not pulling on the conductors. I would fit new cords which look something like the original GPO ones, there's a seller on Ebay who sells reproduction ones, he's very helpful and should be able to provide you with suitable ones.
The only problem would be if there aren't enough contacts on the hookswitch for the anti-sidetone circuit. If this were the case then there would seem to be four options:
1. Obtain a subset more like the original Bellset No. 1.
2. Try to modify the existing subset to convert it into a simple sidetone one.
3. Install an additional switch to provide the extra contacts; I have various switches designed for use in 700 series telephones, and it might be possible to install one of these and rig up a mechanism to operate it.
4. Install a small relay operated by the original hookswitch contacts. I don't know if you could draw enough current from the line to operate this, if you could you'd probably need to fit a choke to block a.c. signals going through it, or if you'd need a battery. Since you'd only be drawing current when the 'phone was off-hook, a battery should last quite a while.
If only one pair of switch contacts is being used at present then it sounds like the subset is not being used as it was intended to be.
Before you do anything I think you need to make a decision about what you want; do you want a telephone which provides good sound quality for actual use, or one which is as historically authentic as possible? If the former then use the WE subset which you have. If the latter then buy a GPO Bellset No.1; there have been several on Ebay recently, one seller said he had seven of them. The Bakelite Bellset 25 could also be used, but not the identical-looking Bellset 26 as this does not contain the induction coil.
The Ebay seller who can provide the reproduction cords is called chipmunk_2004; he also provides the double diodes to connect across the receiver to reduce the loud 'clunks' in the earpiece. I recommend fitting one of these.
There's one Bellset No.1 on Ebay at the moment, and at a good price if you look at what a complete 150/bellset combination sells for.
http://tinyurl.com/m2tsqz (http://tinyurl.com/m2tsqz) ( dead link 06-28-21 )It ends in a few hours, but there have been several others recently, some of which have not sold, so they may well be relisted, if you wanted to go that route. The price is generally higher than the one that is there now however.
Thanks for your imput Stephen. If I have to go with a new subset, the auction you listed currently cost more for the subset than the entire telephone originally cost me.
Rewiring it may be the way ultimately to go, but it is way out of my league. Hopefully Bill has an idea, his last post was intriguing.....
Dan,
If you paid less than that for the 'phone and the subset then you got a very good deal, even if it does need a bit of work doing on it.
I know what you mean about the money; I've recently bought three 'phones that I've had to put on the credit card. I shouldn't have done, but they were all at very good prices, which I'm not likely to see again.
I really would recommend a re-wire, and I'm sure there are plenty of people here who can help you. I'm not familiar with the circuit of that subset, but I could probably work it out if I sat down with the diagrams.
In the meantime, try insulating that solder joint with a bit of tape, though some very small heat-shrink sleeve would be better for a long-term fix. I can't tell if that wire is touching the metalwork of the 'phone, though it may well be. If it is, then I don't know where that wire is going, or what else may be connected to the metalwork of the 'phone, so it's not possible to say what the effect would be if it was touching. There's some rust there, which might result in an intermittant fault.
Remember the 'jiggle the hookswitch' thing; you shouldn't have to do that, something is not right, but it shouldn't be too difficult to fix.
You got a good deal with that 'phone. Just keep any original parts that you remove, and you'll have the option in the future to frstore it to original condition if you want to, and you find a bellset at the right price.
Thanks, that's good advice. I bought the phone for $50; it is quite elegant looking. I like it a lot better than a WE150 AL, for instance. The brass had a patina on it that was green, so I went ahead and polished it up (not as original now, but prettier to me). I will definately cover the exposed solder joint, which may hit the inside of the shaft and mess up the switch some how.
BUSY day for me. I'll be back tonight. Hopefully Bill will have some ideas later . Enjoy your Sunday
I see what Stephen is saying, but lets, for now go down the path we are on.
In the photo, we have been talking about the switch contact that is in the foreground. Then there is the rust colored insulator, and then behind that is what appears to be a second set of contacts. Are they, in fact contacts, and if so, where do they go? Next will be to find out where the two wires from the dial pulse springs go. If you cannot readily see which are the dial pulse springs, they are the ones that open and close for each digit dialed. You can see a little rotating cam opening and closing the switch contact as it goes around. Where do those two wires connect, and do they, in turn go to the subset?
-Bill
Dan,
The dial pulse contacts should be on terminals 4 and 5 on the dial. It the dial is held looking at the back of it, with the finger stop at the bottom, and the terminals along the top these are the two rightmost ones. It looks like these are the ones with the green/white and green/yellow wires in you photograph of the inside of the base.
Don't worry about polishing the brass making it non-original; the state that it was in when it came to you wasn't original either. The brass parts on these 'phones were originally painted black. I think you could reasonably have them either painted or polished, whichever way you prefer. Paint has the disadvantage that it doesn't wear very well, at least not the paints available in those days. I think the GPO realised this; the 150 was the last 'standard' phone to be painted; all of the later ones, the 162, the 200 series, the 300 series and the 700 series, including vatiations such as the Trimphone and the Compact Telephone which were based on the 746 were in self-coloured plastic. I've seen photographs of these 'phones when they were still in use, where the brass is clearly polished. I suspect that people polished it when the paint started to wear off. Also, many of the 150s were built using parts recovered from withdrawn older models, and the GPO did a great deal of modification and refurbishment of recovered 'phones before they were re-issued, so it's probably debatable what should be considered original condition anyway.
Back from a BUSY day. The hook switch contacts are as follows. Top one as you look down on the picture is open in the hang up position. When you lift off the receiver, the top contact is closed enough to get a piece of thin paper between with slight resistance.( I would say closed) Next layer of contacts under these two is open in the hang up position and open in the position with the receiver off . (the rust paper insulator keeps then open @ all times).underneath this is another layer of contacts in the closed position with the receiver off and on.
The yellow wire off the top leaf switch (the one that is open in the hang up position, closed with receiver off goes to the aftermarket block and then F on the 425A network. The second leaf switch is soldered on under this and goes to the spot labelled RR on the 425A network.
Here's a picture of the dial . As you can see there are five screws on it with wires. One row of two on the left as you look @ the picture and one row of three from top to bottom on the right are present . It looks like the right row of three - bottom screw wire comes off the dial springs and goes to GN on the subset network (orange and red wire on picture). This switch opens up with dialing lower numbers , and with larger dialed numbers like 9 or 0 you see top right screw switch open up( This is the predominately green and slightly white wire). This wire goes to RR. Understand, the dial works perfectly as of now.
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/sqwitch.jpg)
Dan:
I too am back from a busy day. I am ready to go back to this, or maybe it would be a better more effective thing to do over the phone. If so let me know when would be good for you. Most any night except Tuesdays are good for me, including this evening and right now. I can give you my phone number. But, to get things started again, are you saing there only two wires going to the hookswitch?
-Bill
hello, yes there are only two. I replied to your PM
OK, so lets proceed.
We can use the phone as a last resort.
I have printed all the pictures you have sent. The photos are very helpful, but what they don't always show exactly is where a wire starts and finishes.
Some questions. First can you list the 8 wires by color and connection going to the subset? Some are pretty hard to distinguish from the photo. Also a wire that is mostly white with a blue stripe, the convention is to show it as Wht/Blu, with the major color listed first, a slash, then the minor color. Abbreviate any way you want or spell it out.
What I have inferred from the photos is:
L1 - Blu/Red
L2 - ?
C - OR/Wht
R - Red/Blu
B - ?
GN - ?
F - ?
RR - ?
I know you have addressed F and RR as coming from the dial in your description, so I think one will be Wht/Grn, and the other will be Grn/Wht
More questions to come, but as I ask these, things will start to fill in. Kind of like putting a puzzle together.
-Bill
Here's a good pic.
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/network.jpg)
L1 is actually wht/gray
L2 - blu/brn
C -org/wht
R-red/blu
B grey/wht
GN - wht/blu
F wht/grn
RR grn/grey
I am hoping to produce a diagram of your phone by the time we are done.
Stand by for a couple more questions. I need a few minutes to digest this.
Did you see the candy dish phone someone posted a link to on e-bay?
Your patients would probably like that......well.... stock it with sugarless
yes look @ my response, we are channeling each other!
OK, back to the phone.
The wire in the photo of the hookswitch appears to be Blu/Yellow. Is this correct, or is the color deceiving? I cannot see where a blue/yellow comes out in the bottom anywhere. So, can you confirm, and also can you tell me where the two hookswitch wires connect to the 6-position terminal block? The photo of that block that I am using as a reference is the one below For now, lets say that the terminal that has the red/blue on the left is terminal 1 and the one that has the orange/white is terminal 6.
it is green yellow, actually. it comes down the shaft and connects to the DIAL (look at the dial pic post #26)
hook switch two will follow next (have to look @ the pic)
second hook switch goes to the block @ terminal three
Ok, next question. on terminal strip #5 there is the blue/red that goes to L2. Hooked to that terminal is a yellow/brown. Is this the same yellow brown that goes to the dial? Probably is, but confirm. Then there is a brown/yellow going to the dial. I cannot tell where that connects at the strip.
the yellow brown @ position 5 is going up to the leaf switch that controls the hook switch .the yellow brown from the dial goes to position one on the strip
Actually, it would make more sense if the two brown dial wires were hooked to terminals 1 and 4. This is probably more correct.
so position five yellow brown should be moved to position 4?
No, I was just getting the similar colors mixed up.
Now, what looks like a brown/yellow on terminal 6, where does it go? Also to the hookswitch?
to the dial , bottom right side as in reply #26
OK, time for some back tracking, and I am sorry if I have mis-noted something, but we will get through this. :)
At present, it does not make sense to me for a connection to the dial to terminal number 6, but I am not ready to start moving things around just yet, because I need to fully understand the connections, so lets continue with the questions.
On terminal strip position 1, there is a fabric wire going to the receiver, and I believe a red/brown going to the transmitter, and of course the red/blue going to R on the network. There seems to be another wire, yellow, brown, I believe, Where does this go?
Second, regarding the hookswitch you confirmed earlier that there were only two wires going to it; a yellow that goes to terminal 3 and a green/yellow that goes to the dial. Then in post #37 you said "the yellow brown @ position 5 is going up to the leaf switch that controls the hook switch"
Sorry if you have already clarified this and I missed it.
yellow brown terminal one wire goes to the dial left side bottom screw
yes i clarified it post #37 is th ecorrect one
OK, believe it or not, we are getting somewhere. We are getting to the end of this whole thing.
So the hook switch does have two sections. The first has the yellow and the green/yellow. The second has the yellow/brown that we just discussed. Does that second section have another wire, and what color is it, and where does it go?
I pulled the hook switch completely out of the candlestick tube. A yellow-blue wire has now broken off a blade. My camera died so I can't post a pic. There are three screws under the blades with colored wires attached. A green-yelow isnt on a screw, it's soldered on a blade switch, a yellow blue that atttac hes to position 3 on the block that is now cracked off the blade (this may be the ULTIMATE problem, a crack in this blade), A yellow brown to position 6, .
In summary two yellow browns(position 6 and 5), a broken soldered yellow blue(i think I have been calling this one yellow) and a green yellow soldered
Look @ reply #12 top pic, this is the broken solder joint
OK, that helps. Sorry about the break and the switch. I am going to digest this, and maybe the crack in the blade may be the problem. Who knows. I would like to get a picture of the complete switch assembly, but it is late, your camera died, your wire has broken, and it is probably time for us to call it quits for the night.
What I have learned is that the combination of the 2-section switch and his taking the dial and the switches out of the circuits that they were originally hooked to is so that it can be hooked to the 685 subset.
What was really baffling me is that with the two section hook switch, if one side was shorted out and thus always turned "on", the other side would have turned the other side of the line off and it would not have had the hang-up problem you started out with. If there is a cracked spring, it may be interfering with other parts and causing the problem.
Anyway, I am going to mull this over, and I really need to ferret through the posts. One thing that has gotten in the way are all the brown/yellow, yellow brown wires and multiples of them. Sheesh.
Anyway, If it is ok with you, I'd like to continue tomorrow or sometime after you have had a chance to take a picture of that other section and maybe resolder the wire.
-Bill
goodnight, I got an intense root canal patient tomorrow anyway . I'll charge the phone and get some pics up for you 8PM est (approx) Thanks
Here is the diagram I have come up with. Actually, this should work fine, and other than the switch wiring, I do not think there is any other re-wiring to do. (After all that)
This absolutely should work the way it is drawn.
The one thing that the hookswitch does not provide is muting of the receiver during hookswitch operation. The hookswitch you have has been really modified and therefore I absolutely do not recommend trying to put yet another section in for receiver muting. What this means is that when you lift or press down on the hook to hang it up or take it off hook, you will always hear a pop in the receiver. Fortunately, you will almost always be putting the receiver on the hook or taking it off the hook during this moment, so the receiver will be well away from your ear. However, if you should click the hookswitch while the receiver is up to your ear, you will hear the pop.
Here is the diagram.
Next step is repairing the hookswitch and getting it back together.
-Bill
:o
Beautiful schematic! I have never soldered on a leaf switch before but that will come later. Talk to you tonite. Thanks again
I'm impressed, Bill. Great job. :)
Oh, but we still have to get it working....
-Bill
Here is a couple of hook switch pics (overheard and side views) to help you confirm your work. Whats next? Repairing the broken solder area? I have a gun with some lead solder. Thanks again. One more thing, despite the sloppy wiring routing, does it look like the guy knew what he was doing? I don't know him, it is only hearsay from the craigslist guy (whom I also don't know)
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/aswitch001.jpg)
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/aswitch002.jpg)
I am just now leaving from work to home, and I need to make a stop at the store for a few minutes en route.
Those pictures are going to be a great help. Now, just like the dentist asking for an X-ray, can you get a shot that shows the switch contacts both a frontal view and a side view (from both sides)? That would also help.
My ex-wife was a dental assistant for many years, and she once told me the lingo about mesial, distal, lateral, etc, but I can only come up with frontal view and side view at the moment. These shots will show me what you mean about the split contact.
Oh, and to answer your question about soldering...
Soldering is not hard, but you need to make sure the heat does not destroy things around it. That probably won't be a problem here, and you probably know about heat conduction. Also the way to do a good solder job is to first bare the wire, second, wrap it around the the thing you are soldering to, and then hold the solder gun tip right on the thing being soldered and wait for the thing + the wire to come up to heat. Then touch the solder to the joint, but not directly to the solder gun tip. The goal is to let the solder sort of flow in and around the parts, but touch the solder mainly to the joint itself.
If possible, you may want to take the soldering gun tip and swipe it over the joint ahead of time to remove the broken off piece of wire still stuck to the joint. Otherwise you will wind up solering the new wire right over the broken off piece.
Remember that less is more when it comes to soldering. You don't want a big blob of solder, and you don't want a cold solder joint. A cold solder joint is one that you have just heated up the solder and not the joint itself, and you just wind up with a solder crust so-to-speak around the actual joint.
Lastly, one thing that has gotten my attention from the start is the way that terminal for this joint sticks way out to the side. It may be rubbing against the inside of the candlestick shaft. If there is a way to bend it inward some to get some of that overhang out, that would be great. By bending, I mean front to back, and not in an up or down direction from the shaft. We can talk about this more, because it is hard for me to describe.
So, I will be back in the saddle at home in an hour or less.
-Bill
Here's a side view. The two wires go up to the mouthpiece. from top (the shortest leaf) to the bottom there are four leaves. In the unhung position is the picture . Between layers two and three is the rust colored insulator. Hanging up the receiver only opens the small leaf from the stack, the insulator keeps layers two and three open, while the space between 3 and 4 is closed in hang up or unhung position
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/aaaswitch001.jpg)
I am back...
In the un-hung position, it appears that the two leaves at the top of the stack, which is one set of the two switches seems to be closed, which is what you want. I cannot see from the photo what the bottom of the stack switches are doing, but they too should be closed (contacting each other). When the hook is in the hung-up position, both sets should open up. Can you confirm?
-Bill
I just read your post more carefully. What you are saying is that the second set (3 and 4 leaves) do not open when the receiver is on-hook. That is a problem.
BTW, do you have an ohm meter?
My guess on the whole problem:
1. The bottom switch is not opening on hang-up.
2. The top switch has the one terminal that was rubbing inside against the shaft of the stick.
This phone has two sets of switches, and even if one failed to open, the other one would still cut the phone out and hang it up. However, with the one contact rubbing against the inside of the shaft, if somewhere else in the phone there is contact with the body from another point, it would possibly short out that switch too, causing the phone never to be hung up. A likely candidate for another wire to be touching the phone would be inside the transmitter. That would definitely cause it. With an ohm meter I think we could check this and other things to see.
I think I asked you a long time ago if you had one and I think it may have been you that said you had an old one that your dad had years ago. If that's the case, if you can break it out and get a new battery for it, that would help. If not, we can just proceed to make sure that terminal (once re-soldered) does not touch the side of the phone.
BTW that would also explain why jiggling the switch-hook would have at one time made it work. It was probably not absolutely rubbing, but since has shorted out to the shaft all the time.
-Bill
The hang up switch pressed against leaf four. I slid paper between layer three and four and even floss. I can't even get floss between layers 3 and four of the leaves also . OHM meter yes, I just don't know how to use it.
BRB, I am going to check out a photo of the unmodified 150....
Should I unscrew the leaf swiches and see if three and four are stuck together?
here's some pics of a 150, if you need them
http://www.britishtelephones.com/candle1.htm
Take a look at this picture of the original 150. Where the hang-up mechanism presses against leaf #4 there should be a rubber bumper to aid in the pushing to open it up. Yours also seems to have this, can you verify that? Also, would a little bending and cajoling be able to open #3 and 4. I suspect not because it is probably already backed up against the wall so to speak.
Also, I don't want to spend a whole lot of time on leaves 3 and 4, because we can work around them and only use one set of contacts in the switch.
So, check these things out, and we can do this without the ohm meter, that would have been a nice to have but not essential. Are you getting ready for the solder job?
-Bill
Unscrewing the leaf switches may be a can of worms. Can you lightly pry them apart with the tip of a screw driver?
The rubber thing to open layers three and four is there but very little and worn down
yes they can spread apart with a screwdriver
One more thing to check. Notice in the original 150 picture that the back leaf, #4 in our case, is curved toward the hook mechanism so that it naturally is in the path of that rubber bumper to open it up. Yours seems to be more flat, but is possibly welded to #3 from a spark at one time.
OK, well, forget the welded together. Again, if you can adjust it into behaving itself, then fine, otherwise we can work around it. One other thing to try is to add some insulating substance to the end of the rubber bumper to open it up. If you press with the screw driver tip on the very end of #4 will it open up?
yes, it will open, but you must press VERY hard
You are probbly coming to this same conclusion, but the only two things that will make this part of the switch work the way it should is to (A) curve it lightly towards the hookswitch part with the rubber bumper; and (B) extend the rubber bumper. I don't know how you would do (B) unless you actually glued something to it.
Part A would work but I can't bend it up because the leaf 4 is trapped under the hook switch. I don't know how to add to the rubber (solution b)
What if I pry up towards leaf three between layers three and four. Would this could open up the space and make the contact open?(between 3 and 4)
Wow, my number of posts in the forum has sure gone up these last couple of days....
I promise not t put you above 1000 by the time we are done:)
Yes, give your last suggestion a try, carefully. I don't know how fragile the switch pile-up is.
Two rusty screws hold the swirtches in place. If I unscrewed them I could bend layer 4 up tighter or I could be 'screwed too"
That's just it. In the spirit of conservatism, lets not. We can do without this section of switch if we can properly solder the other one on and make sure it does not rub inside the shaft.
By the way, switch pile-ups are a royal pain, even when not dealing with rusty screws and home-made leaves.
Quote from: Phonesrfun on August 10, 2009, 10:18:22 PM
Yes, give your last suggestion a try, carefully. I don't know how fragile the switch pile-up is.
I literally pryed up switched leaves 1,2, and three 1/2 inch up from 4. They spring right back in place and hit tightly against 4 in the hang up and unhung up position.
Take the leaves apart next to get to #4 and bend it up tighter towards the former rubber grommet, or do you wish to bypass this somehow?
looks like you answered me, lets leave (no pun atended) the leaf 4 alone
I'm going out to get the soldering gun , BWB
looking back @ the old pics, where do I solder this yellow/blu wire. It looks like it is near leaf one, but since you know the schematic and I don't where does it go?
Take a look at posts 12 (photo 1) and post 52 I believe it goes onto the protruding terminal that looks like someone's arm hanging out of a car window.
Can you send a photo of your soldering gun and the solder you are using so I can get my bearings here? Did my dissertation on soldering I sent this afternoon make any sense?
-Bill
Did the whole terminal break off???? I was thinking just the wire came off the terminal.
here's the solder kit. The solder is rosin-core, if that matters
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/solder.jpg)
look @ pic 2 reply 52, the whole thing came off
I was reading your post 46 "looks like a crack in the blade may be a problem" you nailed it.
OK, now I understand. (Did you ever see "Being There" with Peter Sellers...."I understand perfectly...:)
Ahh. First of all, your solder and solder gun are good!. Second, I believe the broken piece goes to leaf number two, and that the Green/Yellow wire is soldered onto a stub that is on the top leaf, #1. At least that is what reply #54 shows as well as my schematic and notes. You may want to verify that to be sure.
Now, we have a practical problem. The contact that was connected to (I believe) leaf #2 has broken clean off. How to re-attach it? When we were talking about soldering, I was thinking that only the wire had broken off the terminal. This may involve opening up the stack. Now I defer to you. Do you have any ideas about hooking this back up?
I just read your most recent post that you sent regarding the crack in the blade (leaf?). Can you get a picture of that? Also, something in another prior photo just caught my eye. The brown/yellow and yellow/brown wires are both connected to binding nuts which in turn go to leaves #3 and #4. It almost looks like one of the spade tips is touching the other post. Can you make sure they are not. (Probably does not make any difference if this switch is permantly closed).
But lets talk some more about the crack in the blade.
Wait a minute, I have an idea for connecting this...
sorry for the confusion , there is no crack in any blade, just the "thing" that the yellow blue wire attaches to obviously has a crack, as it cracked off. I meant this homemade thing may have had a crack in it. Glad the gun and solder are good. Could I unscrew the leaves, shove the broken piece between layers two and three, and retighten it.? Would it require solder over the "sandwich"-
Thaks for the clarification about the blade and the crack. When I gave it more thought, that is what I thought.
My idea is similar to yours.
Let me study the photo in # 54 for a moment....
Yes!
In looking at the stack from the top down, I see at the very top a metal cap.
Next is an insulating piece
Next down is leaf #1
Next is another insulating piece,
Then leaf #2
Then another insulaing piece
Then it goes on down to leaf 3
An insulating piece,
Leaf #4
Then finally an insulating piece at the very base.
Can you confirm?
yes the "cap" is the top of the two screws that hold the whole thing together everything else is as you described it
Next clarification is:
The blade that broke off...Did it physically break off of leaf #2 or is there another piece of metal that the blade was attached to that was sandwiched in right under or over blade #2 with no insulator between. This is important.
looks like the first scenerio -it broke off leaf 2
look @ reply #12 pic 1 see how it is right on the blade?
Here is my idea:
1. Unsolder or cut the blue-Yellow wire off the blade. Probably just cut.
2. Bare about 1/4" of insulation off the wire.
3. I am assuming the wire is stranded. Twist the bare end of the wire with your finger to achieve a nice twist so its not all flared out.
4. Loosen the two screws holding the stack together, but do not take it apart.
5. Using a screwdriver or whatever you want, open up a space between the bottom of leaf #2 and the insulator beneath it so you can slide the end of the blue/yellow wire in between.
6. Re tighten
7. Check to see that the leaves #1 and #2 still open when hooked, and close when un-hooked.
This will re-attach the wire to leaf #2 by the compression of the screws holding the stack in place.
If we can successfully do this, we may be done.
Out of curiosity, did you check to see if the two brown wires connected to the two nuts for leaves #3 and #4 were or were not touching each other?
-Bill
Add to step 5 that the blue/yellow wire must be in contact with the metal part of leaf #2.
Dan:
You had earlier asked about the apparent knowledge of the guy who did the modifications to the phone. Here is my take:
First, I would hate to be the one coming in behind some of the past stuff I have done, especially in my earlier years. He may have done this purely for his own enjoyment and not initially intending to resell it.
He knows how a telephone is to be wired. That is for sure. His mechanical abilities with the hook switch are kind of backyard techniques at best, but on the other hand, unless you have a machine shop, you just cannot do any better. I know, because I have had to make switch springs for pile-ups for phones that were damaged or incomplete, and I did not at that time have access to parts.
Wiring could be much better, and the connecting block too. Kind of raw. Would have been better to use a wider variety of colors, and as far as the wires that go to the subset from the block, he could have used the color codes in the order that they are usually used. His seem to be a haphazard approach.
I do not know what the condition of the GPO 150 was when he started. If it was a bunch of parts that he was able to bring back to life, that is one story. If it was an original and functioning 150 that only needed an older subset, the there are some collectors such as Stephen Furley who are going nuts at the very thought of this kind of modification.
So, there you have it. A knowlegeable guy who could use some mechanical help, and maybe a guy that does not appreciate the aesthetics of an original phone.
For me, I would rather have a phone be original and experience the original use of it, rather than to try to make it into something it is not. But, I am 58 years old, and I have learned the hard way by trying to convert everything under the sun.
When they get too carried away with the conversions, they are sometimes called Franken-Phones.
So, Lets just assume he had a pile of junky parts to start with and made something out of it all.
-Bill
Brown wires are not touching each other. Got the wire under leaf 2 properly, retightened. the little piece of insulator came out that was between leaves two and three. come out (the little square). Funny noe the switch opens up upon hangup between leaves two and three, while leaf one stays closed all the time. Should I put thelittle square back?
Yes, you need to put that back, otherwise it will short out the whole thing.
Was that insulator broken? Normally, they are rectangular in shape with two holes for the round black insulators/spacers that the screws go through.
PS This is one of the pitfalls that make taking a stack apart treacherous territory.
well, I will put the little brown square back. I need to retighten until I get #1 to open again, not two and three , right?
Correct. Two and three should still have that insulator between their tips also, so they also need to be insulated from each other in the stack.
leaf one always touches two now, this is all new to me. Can I pry it up a little or--- since I can tighten screw one first, then two, then in the hangup position then in the unhung up--way too many variables!
With the stack tightened down, is it solid? That is hopefully you cannot easily twist it with your thumb and forefinger around as if it were loose, despite it being tight. This would be caused by the leaves and the insulators getting hung up on the tubular spacers that the screws go through. If it does wiggle, you may need to loosen ever so slightly and twist back and forth a bit until things seat and then tighten. I hate dealing with switch pile ups....arghhh.
it's all tight, the space between 1 and two doesn't open.
Lets call it a night here. I bet if I can get the leaf to open up between one and two then all we have left is to reassemble it according to your schematic (which you said was exactly like it was already wired)
In summary, do you think the uninsulated switch between stacks two and three was hitting the candlestick metal, causing the switchhook to malfunction?
I'll chime in tomorrow night. I have a feeling this switch stack has infinate positions and I will be a while. I just have to remember to be patient and not bend it. It acts differentl y now....
I definitely think this was the source of the problem all along. That, coupled with the fact that the second switch is not opening. We can go into why one switch will do at a later time, but we will be ok if we can just get leaf #1 and #2 to open when the phone is on-hook. As a practical matter, if #2 and #3 wind up touching, since we are going to do without that second set, we can disconnect it entirely and hard wire around it rather than leaving it wired in-place. So, the most important thing at this point is to get leaf #1 and #2 to open and close properly and to be insulated from each other at all times.
You might consider going to Radio Shack and picking up an inexpensive analog Volt-Amp-Ohm meter. The cheapest bottom of the line one they have will do. I think they are under ten Bucks, and probably more like $7 or $8. My digital one cost me all of $80 at Radio Shack. You would be surprised how they come in handy in phone work. That way we could check the switch as we are getting it back together but still all disassembled, rather than hoping it is all OK, then putting the phone back together and finding out it is still not functioning.
Good night, and good working with you.
-Bill
Good night. I will get out Dad's OHM meter and you can show me how to work it tomorrow. I also got switch ! to open from two. I am worried that the little pice of insulation between 3 and 4 will eventually fall out, since it is only held in by friction and not any physical holes or anything. If we could take 3 and 4 somewhat out of the equation llike you said...
Thanks again. This is what this forum is all about.
Any teeth questions chime in......
You say it is now all working??
yes it opens between one and two again
Wonderful! And if #2 and #3 are insulated from each other, we should be in business for re-assembly, and completely done.
What did you do to get it to work?
Also, did you see my comment on getting an inexpensive meter?
Are you planning on bagging it for the night or re-assembling tonight?
I looked @ my "lateral "picture you suggested of the switch assembly. What time is it where you are @, by the way. It's 1 AM here.
If you look @ the lateral switch pic, you will see space on the left screw assembly side, while the right has less space between the leaves. I just loosened the left a little, tightened the right, and boom all is well.
I will reassemble tomorrow. I want to take Dad's OHM meter to work and check it it has battery leakage, it works or whatever, than if not I'll hit a Radio Shack on the way home.
You can show me how to measure switch current, electrical continuity, and all those other things I don't know
You ARE the MAN Bill
We'll resume tomorrow arounf 8 pm est if this is good w/you Thanks
Thank you for the nice words. And yes, let's resume it's 10pm here Pacific time, so not nearly so late. I hope others have had a chance to follow along....Not in detail, because even the two of us have had to work at that :) But follow along if nothing else to see what might be involved in stepping through a discovery process. What I have seen with this is that from the very start, I and others (and perhaps you too) had thought that we were dealing with a stock GPO phone, and the conclusion was that it would never work with the 685 network. Well, we have learned a lot since then about this particular phone, and how it was changed. Then we had to do two things. One was find out what it was supposed to be doing, and then find out why it wasn't. Wow, what a process.
Years ago, I was a stereo repairman in a HI FI shop Same sort of things that one has to step through.
I do not envy the guys that have to work on today's cars!
-Bill
Oh, and one more thing.
On the stack where you loosened up the one end and tightened the other. If that screw is now loose, it may get looser yet and fall all the way out someday. You probably need to find something that you can wedge in there so that you can tighten the screw while maintaining the spacing. Otherwise you will loose the loose screw and only have the one screw holding it all together.
-Bill
Well done Bill!
I had a message today from the seller to say that he has posted my 150, and depending on whether the Post is on strike I might get it tomorrow. When it does come I won't be here to receive it, so I will have to collect it from the depot. I'm not sure when I can do that, I'm having to go in to work early this week, and on Saturday I'm going on a course all day, on Blacksmithing.
Well, Bill, I put it together earlier. The hookswitch works SOMETIMES. When you hold the receiver down TIGHTLY, it is recognized as being hung up. If you hold the receiver to your ear, you hear the popping off and on as you move the hookswitch up and down. When I knew it was hung up correctly, I rang it, the bells didn't work. I know the leaf stack may need adjusting so that I don't have to push down the receiver quite so hard . Maybe 1 and 2 on the leaves aren't opening all the time. Maybe 3 and 4 should be open? I do have an OHM meter that I will show you. It won't be hard to take it apart again, If I have to.
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/ohm.jpg)
Sounds like the leaves are still at issue. We should use the ohm meter and try to determine what is happening. The ringer is a separate issue and is totally outside of the phone housing and within the subset.
I have a little less than an hour before I need to run off to a meeting at 7pm my time (10 yours), and I will be back about 8:30 or so.
Looks like a good digital DVM; I assume you got a battery for it. :)
-Bill
Thanks, I will take it back apart and we can look @ the leaves. Since you won't be back until 11:30 PM EST, let's take this up Wednesday night because I have to get up @ 5:30 Wednesday morning. Let me know when you are available Wed night. Until then take care, Dan
Yes I have a battery for the OHM, we'll resume this on Wed night.
Will do, and by the way, congratulations on the success you are having with it!
I think Wed is pretty open for me.
Cheers,
Bill
Good , it is SO Close, I can't wait to call and say "Sarah , get me Mount Pilot."
I love it! I sure remember those shows.
I still catch them once in a while on cable.
Dan,
What shape is the mouthpiece on your 'phone; is it more or less cylindrical, or does it flare out in a trumpet shape, making the whole transmitter look rather like a daffodil in shape? the flared type is older, but the later type takes a standard transmitter insert, as used on the bakelite 'phones, and is said to give better sound quality.
I've received my 150 today, somebody kindly took it in. It's very similar in shape to yours; if anything, the column on mine looks slightly taller, but it's difficult to be sure from the picture. If it is, the difference is only a few milimetres.
Is there a number stamped on the left side of the transmitter mount on your 'phone? If so, does it just say 'No. 150', or is there an earlier number which has been struck out?
This is the first time that I've seen one close up, and the first thing that struck me is how heave it is, both in total, and in particular, the weight of the receiver. I'm told that the receiver housing is brass, but covered in what has been described as 'enamel'. This is a very strange material; it looks almost as if it's made out of Toffee! Whatever it is, it seems to be very hard-wearing; there's no marking where it's been i contact with the rest. The receiver cap has a groove cut in the end of it, I remember reading about this, but I can't remember what purpose it was supposed to serve. The cords are original, the receiver cord is two-conductor twisted, looks rather like the sort of flex you might have had on a table lamp about 60 years ago. It's in very good condition, just very slight wear where it goes into the receiver housing.
I don't know if the transmitter is original, but it's certainly the original type; they were still standard in the '50s.
The dial is not original; it's a No.12, looks almost identical to the No.10, except that the finger stop is slightly narrower. It has a 'Trigger' type mechanism, rather than the 'Slipping cam' type of the No.10. It has the correct early type dial card, but I think it's a reproduction. If it is, it's a good one. There's no number on it.
I doubt that the paint is original, but it doesn't looks like it's been recently done. There's no brass showing through, and no wear on the steel parts; it looks like it's not seen much use. There are a few 'bubbles' at the back, near the cord entry, where there is some rust under the paint, but it's not much. There's also a bit of rust inside the base, and some rust stains on the wiring diagram, but again, it's not much.
The bellset cord is also original, very thick three-conductor plaited brown cotton, still with the original bindings. It's in good condition, but there's just one problem; one of the wires has been cut off short right at the binding. I have no idea why this was done, but it looks like it was done long ago. The tails would have been too short to reach the terminals in the bellset anyway. It was probably intended to be connected to a block terminal, with cable from there to a remote bellset. I've applied a new waxed cotton binding about 50mm further up the cord; I'll have to remove the original one, straighten out the conductors from that point, splice some stranded copper wire to the cut core and then re-bind that core with wire and cotton. It's not going to be a quick job, and the 'phone is not going to work until it's been done.
Will post some pictures soon.
Dan:
Possible source of the most recent problem, and it even could be what caused the whole thing in the first place, but let's not even think of that.
Perhaps the hook is bottoming out in its notched guide in the shaft of the candlestick, and not allowint the rubber bumper to push in enough to open the switch contacts.
See the attached picture for what I am talking about.
If that is the case, you may need to devise a way to extend the rubber bumper, or even glue an insulating spacer on the end of leaf #4 which is what the bumper comes into contact with. It would have to withstand the rigors of all the hookswitch action over time.
-Bill
-Bill
Hi Stephen, Mine flares out like a trumpet. It says W15 with 4001 under this with NO1 to the right of the W-15.Mine is very heavy also, you could probably identify my dial better than I could. It says PAT289244 on the bottom of it. How do you take off the dial card? It is like a WEstern Electric 500 with a metal dial?
Can't wait to see your pics.
Quote from: Phonesrfun on August 12, 2009, 09:23:11 PM
Dan:
Possible source of the most recent problem, and it even could be what caused the whole thing in the first place, but let's not even think of that.
Perhaps the hook is bottoming out in its notched guide in the shaft of the candlestick, and not allowint the rubber bumper to push in enough to open the switch contacts.
See the attached picture for what I am talking about.
If that is the case, you may need to devise a way to extend the rubber bumper, or even glue an insulating spacer on the end of leaf #4 which is what the bumper comes into contact with. It would have to withstand the rigors of all the hookswitch action over time.
-Bill
-Bill
Funny you should mention that because when I moved up the shaft part, the hook mechansim worked better! I think you have the answer here Bill.
Well, what would you like to do next? Do you want to try different positions and see if it will work? l
Bill do you think the tiny square of insulation (Rust colored) between leaf three and four should stay in place? I know the guy put it there to keep them apart. I thought maybe it broke off from a sopt closer where the screws are that hold the leaves together and maybe three and four should touch? You are the electrical guy, however and could you explain why three and 4 should be insulated from each other and not touch?
Quote from: Phonesrfun on August 12, 2009, 09:30:38 PM
Well, what would you like to do next? Do you want to try different positions and see if it will work? l
Should I find a tiny piece of rubber and wedge it on top of leaf 4 , thus forcing it up (towards the upper three leaves and more importantly up towards the hook switch. Are you saying this would help the overall performance of the hanging up and recognition of the phone recognizing it is on and off hook?
According to your picture , is the piece glued to the left arrow or the right arrow (I am guessing right)?
Well, the purpose of that spacer separates the two switch sections from each other, and if both switches were opening the spacer would be absolutely necessary, because one switch opens one side of the incoming line and the other switch opens the other Take a look at the diagram and you will see that the switches are hooked directly to L1 and L2. If they came in contact, it would short out the line and you would hear nothing at all.
Now, having said that we know that leaves 3 and 4 are not really working, which is switch 2. Switch 2 is staying turned on, but that's ok since switch #1 (Leaves 1 and 2) are doing just fine. No real reason to have a switch on both sides of the incoming line anyway.
So, if we actually unhook switch #2 (Leaves #3 and 4) from terminals 5 and 6 on the terminal strip by unhooking the brown/yellow and yellow/brown wires at the terminal strip, and then move the solid Orange/White wire from terminal 6 to be with the Blue/Red on terminal 5 (Leaving terminal 6 empty) then you would be free to take that rust colored spacer out because the swich would then be a single section, and then you may have a lot more latitude in how you adjust it.
All that was pretty wordy, but in essence we would be simplifying the thing a bit. If you have difficulty understanding how to do it, I don't mind going over it again.
I am sorry, I don't understand the question you are asking just before my last (lengthy) post
First of all , I know EXACTLY how to take switch two out of the equation and I will move the three wires accordingly.
Should I tape off the two brown-yellow wires with electrical tape so they don't short out something?
Disregard my confusing other question, thanks.
I think I will move the three wires now.
Yes, tape them, or remove them from under the small nuts that hold them onto the hookswitch.
Just for curiousity sake, I will try the phone now before removing the little insulation square between leaves 3 and 4.
OK, good.
Amazingly, now it doesn't hang up at all, the switch doesn't pop or anything. Do you want me to put the wires back as they were and see if there is a difference?
That is odd. It may be ohm meter time. That tells me that when you were pressing down hard, it was switch #2 that was opening and switch #1 is not behaving. All along I thought #1 was ok and #2 was the culprit.
Don't give up.... we are dancing around it, and we will get there, soon...
I'm wiring it back as it was and testing it again......
Now the hookswitch works, albeit intermittantly, and only if I push the hangup switch down hard.
OK, then, for some reason, even though visually switch #1 (Leaves 1 and 2) are opening, there is some way that they are making contact either withing themselves or somewhere else. We need to check this by first looking at the swithes again and looking very closely for some thing that is causing leaves 1 and 2 to be touching eath other when the phone is off hook. Secondly, we can use the ohm meter to positively confirm this.
oops spelling withing = within
Ok , I'll have to take it apart from the six screw block and we'll look @ the switches. Also, I have NO Idea how to even use an OHM meter. I'll take it apart to get to the switches again.
Using the ohm meter per se is pretty easy. Having the ambidexterity to hold the probes in place while playing with the hookswitch is another story.
Switch is now exposed. I notice right off the bat that 1 and 2 are BARELY open when I push the hookswitch down hard. Should I fool with the screws to try to get 1 and 2 open farhter, or do you want to wait on this and start with the OHM Meter? If so walk me through it. My son is an extra pair of hands if I need one.
Lets go right to the ohm meter.
Turn the ohm meter to the ohm setting (Greek Omega symbol) with the big dial on the front. Did the display come to life?
yes, omega is ready
OK, on mine, when the meter is on but not hooked to anything the display reads L.0 (For some reason that is supposed to indicate infinite resistance) I don't know what yours reads, but that is what mine does.
Now, when you touch the tips of the red and black probes together the display should change to 0.00 (meaning zero ohms) Can you try this and see what happens?
22.38, at first it reads like yours, look @ my OHM pic reply #112. Do I even have the probes in the right holes?
probes are in the correct holes. Black= COM = Common, Red= V(olts) and Ohms, which is correct. We are only going to use this as a continuity checker and not really measuring resistance, so any change from infinite to some measurement will be ok for our purposes.
Next step is to connect the probes to the wires from switch #1 which are the Blue/yellow and Green/yellow wires. Some meters have alligator clips built into the probes, but if yours do not, you are going to have to hold them on with your (or your son's) fingers.
With the hook in the hung-up position, we want the ohm meter to read infinite L.0; With the hook in the un-hung position we want a reading similar to (It may net be exactly) the number that you are getting when simply touching the probes together; 22.38 or an indication that the switch is closed. What it sounds like is we are going to see the 22.38 more than we want. You might also check to see if by lifting leaf #1 off of #2 with your fingernail with the meter still connected, you are getting a reliable change from open to closed on the meter. If that is the case, then adjust the switch screws to get the best behavior with the hook doing the work.
Some ohm meters are sensitive enough to give a very small reading just from the coductivity of your finger tips, so it may change from L.0 to .000XX or something just by touching the wires while having it connected. That is OK too. Even if that happens what we are looking for is a transition from even that small decimal reading to something like the 22 ohms with the action of the switch/
In the hung up position, touching black probe to yellow green and red to blue yellow, I get 19.02
in the unhung position 39.0 same wires measured
That means that the switch is not working. Did you lift the leaf while measuring? Any change there?
Can you get a close-up photo of where you re-attached the blue/yellow wire? I want to make sure you attached it to leaf #2 and not to leaf #1.
unhung with leaf 1 up 4.48, hung up with leaf 1 pulled up (opened) 4.1
photo coming up soon
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/switchwire.jpg)
the wire goes under leaf 2, between it and the insulation above leaf three
Just for the heck of it, put one probe of the meter on the top leaf (#1) and the other probe onto any part of the metal frame. Do you get a reading?
Also examine the stack very carefully and check that there is no other way other than the switch activating for leaf # 1 and 2 to contact each other. Something is shorting them out.
question 1 zero reading :)
That is good.
There must be something else that is causing the two leaves to mechanically touch each other, or there is something coming into contact with both 1 and 2 that is somehow bridging them.
question 2 I don't exactly know what you mean
Bill I think I need to adjust the stacks to get 1 and 2 to open in the hung up position better. As of now it probably is only opened 1/2 a millimeter (barely). These stacks are hard to adjust. Good idea?
Hard to verbalize because I know the results of what I am after, but not exactly what to look for in this instance.
I just sent you a PM to call me.
Good idea.
thanks for the info Bill, I'll let you know if we can get switch 1 working better. Goodnight
Quote from: Dan on August 12, 2009, 09:26:19 PM
Hi Stephen, Mine flares out like a trumpet. It says W15 with 4001 under this with NO1 to the right of the W-15.
Where does it say this? Is there anything stamped on the side of the brass part which attaches the transmitter to the top of the column? If it's an Ex. GPO 'phone there should be a model number on the left, possibly with a previous model number struck out it it's been re-built from an earlier model. On the right there should be a single letter followed by a number, these are the makers code, and the date. Below these there should be another number, but I'm not sure what this means. Of course, if your 'phone was made for somebody other than the GPO then it's likely to have different markings.
QuoteMine is very heavy also, you could probably identify my dial better than I could. It says PAT289244 on the bottom of it. How do you take off the dial card? It is like a WEstern Electric 500 with a metal dial?
That is a No. 10 dial. The number 12, which mine has, looks very similar from the front; the difference is obvious when looking at the back. The pulse contacts, the top ones in your picture, have to open once for each number position, e.g. six times if you dial a number 6, but only as the dial runs back; they must remain closed as you pull the dial round clockwise. There are several possible ways to do this, of which two are used on British dials. These are known as the 'Slipping cam type', found on older dials such as the number 10, and the 'Trigger' type, found on later types, such as the number 12. If you look at your dial you will see a copper object which looks rather like a flower with petals. This is found on the slipping cam type. Turn your dial slowly in each direction, and you can see how it works.
The trigger dial has a lever which is dragged into one of two positions as the dial starts to rotate, one position as it rotates clockwise and the other anti-clockwise. The first of these positions dis-engages the pulsing mechanism.
On this page: http://www.britishtelephones.com/dial1.htm (http://www.britishtelephones.com/dial1.htm) there are pictures of the front and back of the No. 10 and 12 dials, which show that they look almost identical from the front, but quite different from the back. Interestingly, the 'late' No. 10 dial on that page has the narrower finger stop, like that on a No. 12, I've only seen them with the slightly wider type, as seen on the Australian example.
There's an explanation of how the two types of dial work here:
http://www.britishtelephones.com/dial1.htm (http://www.britishtelephones.com/dial1.htm)
QuoteCan't wait to see your pics.
I should have some up over the weekend, of both the 150 and the 232.
I've reconstructed the cut back wire in the cord this afternoon, that went quite well, wired it up to the bellset and, it doesn't work. No dial tone, no sound at all in the receiver, no signal out when I speak into the transmitter. The hook switch is doing something, as if I plug in another 'phone the dial tone on that get's slightly quieter when the hook switch on the 15 is closed. also, the bell in the other 'phone tinkles as the shunt contacts in the 150 dial open and close. This seems to indicate that me repair to the cord was successful. Test meter needed; I'll try to look at it tomorrow or Sunday. I'm trying to avoid opening up the 150 if I can possibly avoid it. I've got the blacksmithing course all day on Saturday.
When we've both got our candlesticks working maybe we could arrange a time that I could call you one day, taking account of the different timezones. There can't be many calls between two candlesticks these days, albeit with lots of modern digital stuff in between.
here's a picture , this is where I got the first set of numbersW-15, NO .1 and 4001 (it is faintly on the picture)
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/gpo001.jpg)
After a closer look, Stephen, I also see near the screw behind the mouthpiece the followingW23, with 235 under this, and under the screw 4029. On the other side above the screw, it says NO.2
I hope this helps. What is the approximate age of this brass beauty?
It would be phone to call across the Atlantic and connect two GPO brothers.
I am currently trying to get the hangup switch fixed, although it dials out great. I also need to get the subset ringing too.
Good luck on yours.
Dan:
From post #3 I can almost make out how the ringer is hooked up, but not quite. There are 4 ringer wires:
Ringer wire hookups on the 425 network:
Black should go to L1
Red to L2
Slate to K
Slate/Red to A
Slate is the fancy official word for a gray colored wire.
Is the black wire on yours taped? Has it been repaired at one time?
-Bill
Bill after spending a LOT of time on the switch stack on Thursday, I think I'm going to send it to you as you offered. . Please PM me your address. Please leave the little masking tape stickers on the end of the wires. Your schematic could probably help me get it all back together, but the labels give me a little more comfort ::), since this is complicated to me.
As far as the subset goes,
slate-red (grey) is indeed on A
black (looks more greyish to me) goes to L1
red is L2
and slate is K
This is exactly as you suggested. The tension spring has been moved in the unlocked position and the lever has been moved to the louder position (gongs further apart).The wall cord has the usual green, yellow and red----yellow on G, green on L1 and red on L2. The black wire off the ringer coil is definately on L1, where it belongs..
Many times on my WE500's I have to move the black off G and on to L1 (Dennis Markham said this was party line ringing position). This ringer is indeed wired correctly, but it isn't ringing yet....
Quote from: Dan on August 12, 2009, 09:26:19 PM
Hi Stephen, Mine flares out like a trumpet. It says W15 with 4001 under this with NO1 to the right of the W-15.Mine is very heavy also, you could probably identify my dial better than I could. It says PAT289244 on the bottom of it. How do you take off the dial card? It is like a WEstern Electric 500 with a metal dial?
Can't wait to see your pics.
Sorry, I missed your question about the dial card. The card, and it's plastic cover are held in place by a large internal circlip, which fits into a groove inside the dial centre. The gap in this is at the bottom. The left-hand end is bent backwards into a hole in the dial, there's usually a small notch at the bottom of the card to take this, similar to the notch on the right side of a WE card. The other end of the clip is cut at an angle, which allows you to get a small screwdriver blade behind it, and spring the clip out of its groove. There's then a screw exposed which secures the finger wheel.
Here's a quick shot of my 150 and bellset; the line cord with BT plug is one of the modern reproductions; the other cords are original.
Good news, the 150 is now fully working. Didn't need to dismantle it. The problem was actually in the bellset.
Quote from: Stephen Furley
Here's a quick shot of my 150 and bellset; the line cord with BT plug is one of the modern reproductions; the other cords are original.
Please excuse me while I drool.
It cost me quite a lot of money; I shouldn't really have bought it, but it was in nice condition. I've had to put it on the credit card. I paid about 130 (pounds) for it, plus the bellset. I can't remember how much the bellset was, but it wasn't a great deal. Fully restored candlesticks, with bellset, seem to go for about 400 (pounds); I wouldn't have paid that much. Dan got a real bargain with his one, even if it does need a bit of work to sort out the switch.
I bought the bellset first, with the intension of just waiting until the right 'phone happened to turn up. As luck would have it, it turned up just a few weeks later. I had to recreate one wire in the cord, which had been cut back for some reason. I've borrowed a digital camera from work; I'll post some pictures of that repair, and of my almost complete 232 restoration tomorrow. I'll also post one of my first bit of blacksmithing which I've just done today. I've still got the blister on my thumb from it!
Great looking candlestick!
Dan:
Here are some pictures with the fabric cord. Not very good pictures.
Looks beautiful Bill, I sent you two PM's. Thanks
Once I get your repair back, my next step it to "do a little drywall modification"-as I tell my concerned wife.
Anyone have one of these in their home? I need to do a little woodwork restoration on it.I think the GPO hybrid candlestick would look great sitting here.
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/wallbox.jpg)
"little drywall modification" = $800 and 32 hours of sweat, tears and profanity. ;)
I have never done drywall before, I hope I am not opening up a hornet's nest.
It's certainly a doable project, and probably not all that involved if you can just cut out a section to fit the housing into. You never know what you will find when you have an older house, my walls look like drywall but they are not, it's actual plaster over lathe wire, so cutting a hole is tricky. You may have to cut some studs as well, but overall it should not be that bad a deal.
(Should) :)
Thanks for your second answer, I have more confidence now :D.
To cut plaster and wire lathe (or the older wood lathe) you can use a masonry blade mounted on a regular circular saw. It will make a lot of sparks and dust, so wear mask and goggles. To help keep the dust down, you can have a helper hold a vacuum cleaner tube next to the saw as it cuts. Just be sure that you don't cut into any live electrical wires!
QuoteJust be sure that you don't cut into any live electrical wires!
Did that once, it was shocking. :o
Okay, bad pun.
Really it was no big deal, the saw was insulated and had a plastic handle so all that happened was the lights went out as it tripped the breaker.
Yep, careful as I am with electricity, and always shut down the circuit breakers before doing any household electrical work, I've still accidentally cut live wires a few times. One time was when I was assistant for an electrical contractor. The guy was super smart and was actually (no kidding) an ex-brain surgeon, who got into electrical work as just being much less stressful. So I trusted him with electricity. Heck, it's not brain surgery (Yeah, he got sick of hearing that.)
Anyway, I was under a house and about to cut a wire in the pleasantly claustrophobia encouraging crawlspace, and the boss assured me that the circuit breaker was off. Not. POP! (sparks fly). It turned out that the large wire I was cutting was actually controlled by two circuit breakers for some reason. Anyway, I was fine thanks to insulated pliers (which did not survive the ordeal) and the second breaker tripping itself. Well, I was fine except for the black widow spider who now came out to investigate what all the commotion was about. It got the plier treatment too. :P
I once had 415V across me; it was not an experience that I would want to repeat. I've had 240V about half a dozen times, mainly as a young child taking things to bits to find out how they worked. I've only had it once as an adult, and that would be nearly 30 years ago now. I was setting up a portable Xenon 16mm projector. I connected the cables from the rectifier to the projector, then connected the power cable, but for some reason plugged it in to the mains, and switched on at the socket, before connecting the other end to the rectifier. The connector at this end was a metal one, with a screw on locking ring, and a Bakelte core. The Bakelite was cracked, and as I grabbed hold of it a piece broke off, exposing the live conductor. Nothing since then I tend to be more careful now. In those days I was young and healthy; now I'm much older, and I suspect that it's quite likely that I wouldn't survive the same thing now. My heart was better then.
Stephen, can you approximately date our candlesticks for me? Are they around 1910-1930? That's my generalized guess.
That seems to be about right. I think the 150 was introduced in 1924, when it was already rather dated. The 162 was introduced in 1929, and I would guess that the 150 was dropped soon afterwards. The 162 used te same bellset circuit as he 150, bt it was actually an anti-sidetone circuit, using a second coil in the 'phone itself. My 150 seems to have built new in 1927, though the dial is a 1940s one. My bellset is 1930. Your telephone seems to have been converted from a No.2, so some parts of it are probably older than mine. I'm not sure when the No. 2 was introduced, but 1910 is probably a bit too early though.
To 'finalize " this, Bill replaced the wall cord and simplified the hangup switch. He also repaired the subset (coil winding was bad). It came back today. The phone works great and I will add some weight to the receiver since it has an ITT transmitter and not the original one.
Thanks again Bill for all of your time, help, and patience. This forum is a great example of good people helping others .
Dan,
Glad you finally got it working. Nice 'phone, and you got it for a good price; well done.
I actually used my one today. After I sorted out the wiring problem I just picked it up, checked that there was dial tone, and put it away. About a week ago I took it to work to use in a photo shoot for something, and it's been there since. Today I got it out and connected it to an analogue port that I've got patched through to my desk for testing. I made several calls from it over a couple of hours, and received one, which almost made the others in the room jump out of their skin when they heard how loud the ring was.
I've never used one of these before, and never seen one that was still connected and working. The first thing I noticed about it was that it's too low to use comfortably when it's sitting on the desk, so you have to pick it up, which means no free hand to use for anything else. I'm used to having at least one, and sometimes two, hands free when using the 'phone (I often use a headset at work). The next thing I noticed was the amount of noise in the earpiece, loud clunks from both hookswitch and dial, and just general handling noise being picked up by the transmitter; this was much worse than on a modern 'phone. There was also more sidetone, but I found that this really didn't worry me after a few minutes, I just got used to it.
The overall quality of the sound was pretty good, I've certainly heard worse from much more recent 'phones. The level of the transmitted sound was also pretty good, it's louder than my 232, and I even managed to access the voicemail system via a hand-held tone caller held to the mouthpiece.
Thanks Stephen. It strickly is a "novelty" piece. It does feel odd not having one free hand available. Even with a WE500 you can cradle it between your cheeck and shoulder and use your hands. I like it and look forward to seeing my son's friends try to work it. (I had to teach most of them how to use a rotary)
Lastly, these are HEAVY! I can see these lasting another century.
dan i always love to see those "phone nooks" in the older homes. your candlestick will look cool sitting in yours.
sawz-all is what you need & a hammer. ;D better send the mrs away for the weekend :-[
i've drilled thru a customers power. no damage to me, but smoked my drill bit & left the customer eating dinner by candlelight. it was valentine's day, & they laughed about it. i was mortified, as i had only been on the job about a month.
also being "up the pole" when lightening strikes is a little un-nerving. that was the last time i tried to get the job done before the storm hit. now i just wait them out :o
I've made several more calls with the 150 today, and I've noticed that I tend to hold it further from the mouth than I would with a normal handset, and that sometimes causes problems.
Dan:
I am glad it works. That was an interesting phone. I am on the road this week end in Seattle. I hope to meet up with Brinybay.
How many of us here have working candlesticks now?
I think I have 5 that are working. All Western Electric.
I have one-thanks Bill
Quote from: Phonesrfun on September 02, 2009, 03:49:12 PM
I think I have 5 that are working. All Western Electric.
Five! Are they late ones, like Dan's and mine, or older types? British Candlesticks seem to be pretty similar to American ones, I think some were actually imported from over there. It was with the handset models that the designs really parted company, with Bakelite pyramids here and round and oval base metal models there.
Given that the last of them must have gone out of use about 50 years ago, and they are made of metal, which has scrap value, I'm surprised that quite a few of them seem to have survived.
Stephen:
As I mentioned, mine are all Western. I can post pictures tonight when I get home. I also have one here at work on my bookshelf, but no camera here.
-Bill