WE 7C Dial Assembly and dial speed adjustment for various dials

[TelePlay]

The topic will show how to put together an early Western Electric 7C rotary dial that was taken apart for proper cleaning including
lubrication points during assembly. "Early" refers to a governor gear train that is held together with machine screws later builds may have 3 riveted posts holding the gear train plates together as in the 9C dials).

A few of the images used below were taken during disassembly. These dials go back together so easily, I forgot to take a few images needed to point out lubrication points and main spring positioning/tensioning assembly. It takes less than 15 minutes to put one of these back together including time for lubrication.

[TelePlay]

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[TelePlay]

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[Scott]

So I had been saving a dial to try the instructions TelePlay posted. The only thing I had ever done with a dial is to lubricate it or send it to Steve Hilz. It took longer since it was the first time but over all it wasn't the terrifying experience I was expecting. I know others have been doing this a long time and may have your own techniques but for anyone that hasn't tried disassembling a dial TelePlay's instructions were easy to follow. I only printed out the disassembly instructions but had to go back and look at the re-assembly instructions when I ran into issues. My opinion would be to print out both instructions before starting. Also screw tightening took a little trial an error. The dial looks like it may have been a fire so the biggest difference is of course is the bezel but you can see the dial didn't turn on its own but afterwards it works great. Thank you TelePlay for taking the time to post these instructions. I will have no hesitation on tackling another dial.

Regards,
Scott K.

[Babybearjs]

I have one on a yellow 564 and looked up the adjustment BSP. the governor wasn't braking and I wanted to adjust it. after reading and tinkering with the dial I discvovered to leave it alone as it took care of itself.  the phone works fine now. I haven't had to send any dials to steve in years and always wonder if he's still around and working on the phones. wonder what is going to happen to this service once he's gone....

[TelePlay]

I have one on a yellow 564 and looked up the adjustment BSP. the governor wasn't braking and I wanted to adjust it. after reading and tinkering with the dial I discvovered to leave it alone as it took care of itself.  the phone works fine now.

Post a link to that BSP. I doubt it exists. While the governor can be adjusted AFTER a dial is disassembled, cleaned and properly oiled during reassembly, this was not a field service function so I'd really be interested in reading how WE refurb shops did it instead of reading your undocumented findings from a BSP.

Best would be to scan or print that BSP as a PDF file and attach it for everyone to read.

Knowing how to adjust a 7C governor and having adjusted many, I doubt that BSP exists so prove me wrong, post it as a link or attachment and I will be forever grateful to you for providing it.

[kleenax]

Post a link to that BSP. I doubt it exists. While the governor can be adjusted AFTER a dial is disassembled, cleaned and properly oiled during reassembly, this was not a field service function so I'd really be interested in reading how WE refurb shops did it instead of reading your undocumented findings from a BSP.

Best would be to scan or print that BSP as a PDF file and attach it for everyone to read.

Knowing how to adjust a 7C governor and having adjusted many, I doubt that BSP exists so prove me wrong, post it as a link or attachment and I will be forever grateful to you for providing it.

I think that I have a copy of the BSP that shows how to adjust governor on #7 - #9 dials; I will look tomorrow.

[HowardPgh]

Will this procedure cure the dial that is hard to turn when dialing? Dial returns fine but it is hard to turn in the clockwise direction.
The dial I have is the Kellogg equivalent of the 7C.

[rdelius]

Your governer clutch spring is stuck to the shaft. there is no adjustment for this. This is not the spring that is visible on the back of the dial that sets the speed. You might try penetrating oil on the clutch spring to loosen it. . This is the older dial so the part can be removed to work on it

[TelePlay]

First, I'm still waiting for someone to post the BSP on how to adjust the pulse speed for a #6, #7 or #9 type dial.

Now, to follow up on what redelius posted about your Kellogg dial in reply to your question

Will this procedure cure the dial that is hard to turn when dialing? Dial returns fine but it is hard to turn in the clockwise direction. The dial I have is the Kellogg equivalent of the 7C.

There are 3 springs on this type of dial, the main spring which powers the dial, the clutch spring which rdelius said seems to be frozen to the shaft running through it and the brake spring which controls the governor speed. Thanks to redelius for mentioning that, I've never had a clutch spring stuck to a governor shaft in all the dials I've ever worked on.

The gear train cage can be taken apart (if held together with 3 machine screws and three brass spacer tubes) to clean the gears but two shafts, the pulse shaft and the governor shaft, are press fit onto the top plate of the gear train cage. Removal of the governor shaft may be possible but I've never done it. Once the cage is taken apart, there is plenty of access to both of these press fit shafts to clean them and lubricate the bearing and surface contact points during re-assembly.

With your Kellogg dial, if the gear train cage is held together with 3 machine screws, the cage can be taken apart giving you free access to the suggested frozen clutch spring so it can be worked on to loosen it from the shaft, cleaned and lubricated.

If you gear train cage is held together by 3 posts that are riveted to the top and bottom plates, the cage can not be taken apart and you will have to work on the gears, shafts and clutch spring from outside the cage, a bit more difficult but not impossible to do.

This is the dial's main spring



This is the dial's brake spring



This is the dial's clutch spring



These are the two press fit shafts, one of which has the clutch spring




When dialing a number, the clutch spring and the small gear between the spring and the governor rotates but the governor mounted to a internal concentric shaft does not turn. When releasing the finger wheel, the clutch spring, the small gear and the governor shaft rotate.   The governor rotates on return to maintain a dial speed within spec (~10 pps). If you look at your governor while dialing 2 or 3, if the spring is frozen to the shaft, the governor will be turning backwards and catching on the governor race making it hard to dial. When releasing the finger wheel, the governor will rotate as it should, forward, to control the dial pulsing speed.

Please watch your governor when dialing and let us know if the governor turns when the finger wheel dials a number and when it is released. Also, pictures of the back of your dial showing how the gear train cage is put together would be helpful.

[TelePlay]

I think that I have a copy of the BSP that shows how to adjust governor on #7 - #9 dials; I will look tomorrow.

I really doubt that a service BSP for a #9 dial exists other than to say remove the bezel from the malfunctioning dial, throw the dial mechanism away, put the old bezel on a brand new 9C dial and install that into the phone.

The #9 dial used a governor that was different from that used on a #7 dial. The governor on a #9 was not open and as such, did not provide access to the internal spring or brakes.

If there is a BSP for adjusting the dial speed (and I'm still waiting for Babybearjs, kleenax or anyone else who knows where it is or has access to it to post the BSP as a link or a pdf attachment), it would only be for the #6 and #7 dials, not the throw away #9 dial.

Along those lines, the #2, #4 and #5 dials used a different type of governor which was meant to be adjusted to bring a dial back into spec and there is a BSP showing how to do that, even in the field.

[Key2871]

I've never seen a BSP covering dial repair for a 9C. As you said around here if the dial had problems the bezel was removed and a new dial was used. But a new dial consisted of a new bezel and it may not have been the color you wanted or needed.
In some cases where the dial was an older one and replacement was needed they pulled one from stock and installed it to get by until the correct color could be ordered and then the dial was replaced again. The the dial that was  temp, was discarded because it was used.
A lot of waste, but that's how it was done.

[poplar1]

Both the 7C/7D and the 9C have ITT equivalents. They are probably covered in the ITT manual.

[paul-f]

Post a link to that BSP. I doubt it exists. While the governor can be adjusted AFTER a dial is disassembled, cleaned and properly oiled during reassembly, this was not a field service function so I'd really be interested in reading how WE refurb shops did it instead of reading your undocumented findings from a BSP.

Best would be to scan or print that BSP as a PDF file and attach it for everyone to read.

Knowing how to adjust a 7C governor and having adjusted many, I doubt that BSP exists so prove me wrong, post it as a link or attachment and I will be forever grateful to you for providing it.

For starters, try a Google site search in the TCI Library for "dial speed adjustment."

There are several promising references (both WE and non-WE). One BSP that has adjustment info for 5-type dials is:

https://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/search?q=501-162-100+i8

6-type and later were intended to be replaced.

[TelePlay]

6-type and later were intended to be replaced.

That would seem to be correct and as such, no BSP for adjusting dial speed of a #6, #7 or #9 (if it had this type of governor) would exist.



Replacement back in the day would have been easy with a truck full of new parts but today a #6/7/9? out of dial speed spec can only be adjusted (not replaced with a new dial), so the old out of spec dial must be adjusted, and can be adjusted, but not easily.

Only the above governor on a #6/7/9? can be adjusted.

If the #9, or any other dial, has the enclosed governor, the one with the 3 holes showing



the internal spring, it can not be adjusted.

That's why I was so interested in learning where Babybearjs was reading about adjusting the above coiled brake spring type of governor in a BSP.

I have one on a yellow 564 and looked up the adjustment BSP. the governor wasn't braking and I wanted to adjust it. after reading and tinkering with the dial I discvovered to leave it alone as it took care of itself.  the phone works fine now.

The image below showing the loosening of a set screw and movement of a metal plate to increase or decrease a dial speed is easy to do on a #2, #4 or #5 dial as proscribed in the BSP and having a dial speed tester.





Basically, if the governor is like the above governors (the set screw), it is adjustable as stated in a BSP, the speed can be adjusted.

If the governor is like the first image above (with the coiled spring holding the brakes), it can be adjust in a tricky, time consuming and tedious way but there is no BSP (unless Babybearjs can provide a link to what he was reading) showing how to do it.

And the #9 enclosed governor (the second image above showing the governor with 3 holes in the top of the case) can not be adjusted.

If the dial is an AE type with the dual wing brakes, those can be adjusted and the tech document for that in the TCI Library, a copy of which in pdf format is attached found by Google searching the TCI Library thanks to paul-f's suggestion.

Of course, any attempt to adjust the speed of any dial requires the use of dial speed measuring equipment or software mentioned many times on the forum. The dial speed has to be measured to 1/10th of a pulse per second or better to see the results of the adjustment, or re-adjustment, etc. to know when to stop adjusting. That applies to any company's dial that is adjustable.