Click This! - Dial Click - Need Ideas to Eliminate

[Dennis Markham]

I'm working on a Western Electric Model 102 - Connecting to a 334A Subscriber set.

When everything is connected I'm getting dial click in the ear piece as the dial comes to rest.  I have had experience with this in the past and have tried my known method to eliminate it in this case.

Here are the details.

E1 handset - Wired properly.

B1 Body - 5H Dial.

3 Conductor Desk Stand Cord for Side Tone Service

334A Subscriber set (Ringer Box)

In the past when there has been what I call "dial click" it was a case of the BB contacts mating with the W bar at the bottom of the contacts while R and BK were still touching.  With the help of Steve Hilsz I was able to adjust the contact just above R to eliminate this problem.  In essence the two contacts "R" and "BB" must float when the dial is first turned slightly off-normal.

I tinkered with the 5H dial and was unable to eliminate the click.

I replaced the dial with another 5H dial and still get the click.

I then replaced the second 5H dial with a 4H dial---same thing.

This is my first experience with a side-tone set so perhaps I'm missing something obvious that causes the annoying click in the ear piece.

The handset cord is wired as normal....white to "W" on the dial, Black to "BK" and Red to "R" on the dial.

The mounting cord is wired Red to "R" on the dial, Green to "GRN" on the left stack and Yellow to "Y" on the stack.

I have jumpered "W" to "BB" and "Y" to "BK".

The problem I had with dial click in the past--when Steve gave me some ideas was on a Model 302 with a 101A Induction Coil.  Steve said at the time that if the condenser were a source of the trouble the click would not have been present with the red wire to "C" on the coil disconnected.  I did not try that with this ringer box.  Is it correct to assume "C" on in the box is as "C" on the 101A induction coil?

I know it sounds confusing so if I wasn't clear on the problem I can re-state it.  I would appreciate any suggestions.  I'm running out of hair..........

Thanks

~Dennis

[JorgeAmely]

Sometimes going back to the basics helps in solving these problems.

Dials have two pair of contacts. One to pulse the circuit between tip and ring and another to short the receiver so when you dial, the interruption of the line current is not heard by the user.

Could it be possible that the pair that shorts the receiver is opening too early? Before the dial comes to rest?

In a later dial, such as 7x series, the short to the receiver takes place by turning the dial just slightly. Maybe there is something bent in the old dial that requires less travel of the wheel before the short to the receiver goes away.

[Phonesrfun]

On the 5H dial the receiver contacts open the receiver, rather than shunting it.  Same with a #4 and a #6 dial.


Dennis:

Can you get a good picture of the hookswitch and the dial, with all the connections?

Thanks

[Dennis Markham]

Thanks Jorge and Bill for your responses.  Bill, I will take some photos.  Going by Bingster's diagram here:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=784.0

I did make sure that the hook switch leafs BK-Y "make" before GN-W.  I AM getting a slight clicking sound when lifted off hook but not nearly as obnoxious as the click when the dial comes to rest.  The pulses are not heard during rewind of the dial.

I'll report back with photos.

[Jim Stettler]

I like those color coded wiring diagrams.
Jim

[Dennis Markham]

Jim, Darrin (Bingster) did a great job on those.  I've referred to them often in the past.

OK, here are the photos.  One the one close up of the dial contacts, the black wires are wrong.  I had just put them on before I took the photo.  The others are correct.  

Mounting Cord
Red to R (Dial)
Green to GN
Yellow - Y

Handset Cord
Black to BK (Dial)
White to W (Dial)
Red to R (Dial)

Jumpers
W to BB (Dial)
BK to Y (Dial)

I made the photos full strength so they can be enlarged for easier viewing of the connections.

[Jim Stettler]

Bingster,
These are really nice, and very easy to read . Did you do any other of the wiring diagrams?

It would be neat to have a diagram thread of various models on the technical page.

Jim

[Phonesrfun]

Now that I re-read your post, I see that the click happens when the dial comes to rest.  This would indicate that either the dial switch that opens during the dialing is closing too soon, or that there is DC getting into the receiver circuit.  DC in the receiver could be caused by something being wired wrong, or back to that cap in the subset.  The capacitor in the early subsets performed a dual role.  They were both a ringer cap and they blocked DC from the receiver when the phone is off hook.  

However, if you are not getting that loud spike when you lift the receiver off hook, it sounds more like the switch timing than the cap.  Also, the fact that the cap is working with the ringer is also a good sign.

I would like to see the photos, and I will be out until about 8:30 Pacific tonight.

[Dennis Markham]

I've been modifying my posting so things may have changed since you first looked at my photos.

Bill, I am getting some click in the receiver when lifting it off hook.  Not nearly as loud.  I am beginning to suspect the capacitor, although it is ringing properly.  My thought on the capacitor over the dial contacts is that I've tried 3 dials in this phone and all get that annoying click in the earpiece as the dial comes to rest.

[Dennis Markham]

Attached is a pdf that I prepared from an e-mail Steve Hilsz sent me months ago when I asked him about dial click.  This remedy worked and taught me to watch for this condition while working with these older dials.  This illustrates what a helpful friend Steve is to all telephone collectors.  I e-mailed him out of the blue and he took the time to sit down and write this very good description for me.


There may be other issues that cause the same condition but this was just one of them.

[Phonesrfun]

Dennis:

Do you have a spare condenser from a 302?  The 302 double condenser (part number 195A) has a 2MF cap on the red and black wires.  Hook one side of the 195A to L2 and the other side to C.  Temporarily desolder one of the existing capacitor wires from the existing capacitor built into the subset.

Try it out in this configuration.  If it works like it should, you will need to replace the 2MF cap with either the 195A from a 302, or go buy a 2MF 250 Volt more modern version.

The reason for desoldering the existing cap is that if it is leaking, and we place the 195A cap in parallel with a leaky cap, we would get the same results.

I need to run out the door.

Bye

[Dennis Markham]

Bill, I have done some experimenting while you've been away.

First I grabbed one of my other B1's and attached it to the suspect ringer box.  Normally wired for anti side-tone I did not connect the black mounting cord lead.  I got the dial click in that phone.

To make sure that phone/dial is working properly I connected it to a 302 type subset.  One of those with Ray Kotke's cover.  The B1, again wired w/o connecting the black lead worked normally.

I then connected the suspect phone to the 302 subset.  Dial click present.  That tells me I have two problems.  One with the copper ringer box and also with the dial or switches on the original phone.

So I decided to work on the ringer box using my B1 as the test phone.

I disconnected the 2MF condenser wire as you suggested and connected a 195A condenser using the red and black leads.  One connected to L2 and the other to C.  The clicking was still present.  This is with the known GOOD phone.

I disconnected the 195A condenser and tried the phone.  Of course it was not working as I had not re-soldered the original 2MF condenser wire.  As I touched the bare wire to the condenser post the dial tone returned.  I re-soldered the wire to the condenser.

So now for whatever reason the box is causing clicking in the "good" phone.  The "bad" phone is not working (without clicking) on either subset or a 3rd subset.  I connected it to a 634A and wired it for side-tone (3 conductor mounting cord) and the clicking was present.  So I'm pretty sure I'm having a dial issue with that original phone.

But the "good" phone works with two of the three boxes---not the copper box that I've been working with the past million years.

Note:  There had been a broken wire on the R terminal before I started this project.  I had re-soldered that wire several days ago.  I gave the repair a tug tonight and the wire broke loose of the terminal.  So I figured maybe that caused the problem with the box.  I re-soldered the wire again and there is no change.

I'll probably sleep on this and go back at it tomorrow afternoon.

Thanks for following me on this.

[Dan/Panther]

Dennis;
I'm not an expert by any stretch but in your first photo, the center set of contacts are much wider apart then the ones are in my set. Maybe they are not closing like they should.
D/P

[Dennis Markham]

You know Dan, you could be right about that.  I'll have to double check them against some of my other dials.  Thanks.

[Dan/Panther]

Dennis;
I edited my post I meant to say they may not be closing when they should.
D/P