newbie needs help with western electric 325

[rodnokn6]

ok I will give that a shot when I get home from work, Thanx gain

[rodnokn6]

 IT'S  A L I V E !  When I got home from work last nite my 3 year old grand daughter was over and at that point all bets are off because she just wants to play. Soooo I got up early this morning and read your last response to me Poplar1. You determined that it was either going to be the induction coil or the condensor...( I have neither so I had to borrow from my 302.... ) After I swapped out the condensor EVERYTHING WORKED...  I had nice clean dial tone I was able to pulse out and complete a call I was able to ring in and answer the call to include tripping the ringer..  EVERYTHING WORKS !!!! My only question is what about the hook switch that  I messed up ... its working so do I need to do anything else or do you think it will be ok now and I can start the tear down ... Thank you guys so much especially to Poplar1  I can't believe I'm this happy to get this old call box working .... I might have to get my hands on some  more old telephones......

[poplar1]

The diagrams I found (BSP C65.857 and C55.251) don't show the terminals for the hookswitch so I am assuming that 1 and 2 correspond to the contacts that make last and are connected to the Green and Double-Blue wires. If this is true and they are shorted, the only problem is that you will hear a pop in your ear if you depress the hook switch with the receiver to your ear.

I'm still trying to figure out how a bad condenser would prevent dial tone.

[rodnokn6]

It does make a loud harsh click if I operate the switch hook with the receiver near my ear.(I'll try not to do that) As for HOW a bad condensor could affect dial tone ...That makes me think twice on whether this set is actually fixed or not. Maybe I spoke too soon. Poplar1, you are  supposed to convey only the good news to me and filter out the bad... I looked for help here on the forum because I had no clue how to trouble shoot this phone. If it doesn't make any sense to you that a bad condensor could cause a no dial tone condition... then in my experience this tells me that I  probably really haven't fixed this phone and maybe there is an intermitent open somewhere that I may have temporarily "fixed" by moving wires around when I swapped out the condensor..... we shall see .Anyways my plan has always been to disasemble , clean and  R E W I R E  This phone ( from looking around this forum I've seen some beautiful restorations .) If this were a car my goal would be to make it a RELIABLE daily driver... It will live outside under my patio.  It will be a conversation piece both literally and figureatively.   Anyways its all good because I learned alot and I know alot more now then before I started this post.Thanx again for your time and help.

[poplar1]

I always check the secondary circuit in 302-type circuits and AE 40s by removing the transmitter (or the black handset wire inside a 302 or 202). This changes the phone from "TALK" to "MONITOR" just like a hand test set.

Since your hookswitch receiver contacts are shorted, you can try temporarily removing the white receiver wire from W on the dial and see if there is a loud click. There should not be a loud click when you do this if the phone is wired correctly and components are good.

Also, there should not be continuity between the two sets of contacts of the hookswitch.

Anyone have a later diagram than those on the TCI website which would show the 1 thru 6 terminals? What are terminals 5 and 6 for?

[rodnokn6]

There is no loud click when I remove or reconnect the white wire from terminal W @ the dial. ( when I remove the wire from W @ the dial I loose dial tone) Unfortunately , there is continuity from hookswitch terminals(  1 and 2 ) to 3 ,on hook/  3 and 4 when off hook.

[poplar1]

Since the two sets of contacts are shorted together, you should use the two good ones just to open the connection from YL2 on the induction coil to Y on the dial. Remove the other two contacts from the circuit and run a jumper from GN on the induction coil to BB on the dial.

You will still have the click when you hang up but apparently the secondary circuit is workng if you don't hear the loud click when you remove the white receiver wire from W on the dial.

[poplar1]

CORRECTION:

After further experimenting, I find that having the capacitor disconnected (red lead removed from C) or open (defective) does not make the loud click I expected when disconnecting the white receiver lead.  

But having an open (or disconnected) red HANDSET lead does mean that there is a loud click when hanging up (even with a properly working hookswitch) or when removing the white receiver lead. Also, in this case when you remove the white lead, it disconnects the line.  (If the phone is working properly, removing the white receiver lead loses dial tone in the receiver without a click but the line is still offhook.)

So the only way to make sure the capacitor is not open is to unscrew the transmitter cap and remove the transmitter, or disconnect the black transmitter lead from BK on the dial. This again creates a monitor circuit (where you can hear another phone going off hook or dialing, or hear incoming ringing current, without being able to draw dial tone or stop the ringing.)

With the transmitter disconnected, but the capacitor (red and black leads) shorted, there will still be a dial tone instead of a monitor.

[rodnokn6]

ok so any tips on disassembleing a frozen f1 handset???

[HarrySmith]

If you do a search on the forum there is a very lengthy thread about disassembling F1's.

[rodnokn6]

 ok i may Have found the problem although I haven't dissasembled my f1 handset. I will take harrys advice and search the forum. If i go off hook with the 325 it will draw dial tone. If  i tap  the handset on my workbench and monitor the line with a second test set I get static and loose dial tone if I tap it again it  comes back now I really want to take the handset apart  The following was added @ 0700 on 11-14-12// I took Harry's advice and searched the forum for info on taking apart an f1 handset/ One of the posts talked about applying heat via a hair dryer and using a strap wrench ( probably what a plumber uses) anyways I dont own one of those strap wrenches so I decided to look thru my old phone stuff that I had no idea  WHERE it was, I found an old box that I hadnt unpacked since moving to my house in 1996. In this box I found an f1 handset with a coiled cord. I replaced the handset with this one and if I tap the handset I no longer get the stattic nor do I loose dial tone. So maybe my problem was the handset the whole time???

[HowardPgh]

You Cheated!  (Just Kidding)

F1s are easy to get apart.  Just heat the caps with a hairdryer till they are warm to the touch. Just grab and twist them off.  The thermoplastic ones are tighter than the bakelite ones.  Thermoplastic caps tend to shrink more.  You can tell which ones are the thermoplastic ones as they tend to be shinier than the handset.
I had a F1 I couldn't get the caps on to, so I heated the caps and screwed them right on.  Of course they are very tight now.
Howard

[rodnokn6]

when I started working at Pacific Telephone in 1981 i was 19 years old. Some of the guys that I rode with ( trained me) we called the OLD TIMERS One guy in particular had gone to the war, and returned and att held his job for him  .We were supposed to knock on the customer's door and say " telephone repair" well these old timers would tease us "green horns" and tell us to say " telephone REPLACE" This is because by 1981 ma bell had determined it was more cost effeective to just change out the whole set rather then trying to troubleshoot it and make repairs in the field. Sometimes even  us new guys would replace : receivers transmitters, dials, base cords , hand set cords, ringers .Anyways this is probably WHY I was compelled to cheat in order to fix my 325 set..... I was TRAINED to replace.... BTW the problem was usually NOT the phone it was usually inside wire most likely caused by the subscriber...

[AE_Collector]

BTW the problem was usually NOT the phone it was usually inside wire most likely caused by the subscriber...

And wire problems aren't usually the wire but most likely are the terminations or the jack unless it is exposed and run around the outside of the building!

Terry

[rodnokn6]

Especially rj11s because the pins are so close to each other.There would have been ALOT less trouble if they had kept the old 4 prong design ( virtually bullet proof) Anyways I tried the Howardpgh method and applied heat to my f1 handset and it came apart EASILY just like he said it would .And a picture is worth a thousand words..... Needless to say Poplar1 told me to check the transmitter from the get go...  I  THOUGHT  this phone looked like it had gotten wet...... Thanx again to everyone who responded and tried to help me out especially to Poplar1.Now I can take this set apart and clean it and rewire it. I am now on the hunt for another old phone next time I won't overlook the transmitter and wiring....