Candlestick Recommendations

[McHeath]

Sometimes I get the feeling my post are invisible

What?  Did you hear something?  Who said that?



Hey at least you post things of actual substance, I'm just a fanboy of old phones.  When folks ask real questions here like how to wire things or what such and such number means I'm lost in the woods.

[Bill]

The 102 and 202 aren't desk stands.  A desk stand is a "candlestick." 

Ah, that's one of the things I really enjoy about old phones, and this forum in particular. In contrast to old radios, where I also hang out, old phones involve a lot of imprecise, confusing, and sometimes contradictory information to be sorted through.

My bible is Ralph Meyer's book "Old Time Telephones - Technology Restoration and Repair". Lots of good info, both technical and historical. In this book, Chapter 10 is titled Candlestick Desk Stands and Chapter 11 is titled Handset Desk Stands, and includes discussions of the 102 and 202 desk stands, among others. Hence my observation.

By the way, I am also confused about the difference between a 102 and a 202 - but I'll put that in a different thread.

Bill

[BDM]

By the way, I am also confused about the difference between a 102 and a 202 - but I'll put that in a different thread.

Bill

Bill, you should also purchase Larry Wolff's book Desk Stand Telephones. Another telephone bible for W.E. equipment. 102 = sidetone, 202 = anti-sidetone. The proper designation for the telephones themselves are A1, B1, D1, H1. Also, you may see D3 or H4 indicating specific use. Really it should be A B D or H mount.

I've read plenty of debate over this, but most of the telephone guru's state the proper usage of 102 or 202 as pertaining to sidetone.

[bingster]

Some of the info found is definitely confusing.  Add to that, the fact that different manufacturers each used different terminology to refer to the same parts, and it can get really bad.

Since my main focus has always been the Bell System, I've always tried to use the terminology used by Bell and Western Electric.  In their terminology a candlestick is a "desk stand," and the B1/D1 is a "handset mounting."  So are the C1, G1, H1, etc., for that matter.

102 and 202 are easy to understand, if you take the B1/D1 bases out of the equation.  102 is a standard residential, handset-equipped, sidetone telephone.  202 is a standard residential, handset-equipped, anti-sidetone telephone. There's no more difference than that.  Originally, all B1 mounts contained the 102 wiring scheme.  Most D1 mounts contained the 202 wiring scheme.  For this reason the wiring scheme numbers and the mounting numbers have always been used interchangeably.  The fact is, though, that depending on the mounting cord used, each mounting can use both wiring schemes.

Confused yet?

[bingster]

I was fifteen seconds late.

[BDM]

I agree. Desk stands 99% time, mean candlesticks. "Letter" designation for mounts indicate handset/cradle telephones. Years ago Larry corrected me FAST on proper terminology. I've never deviated back since

[Bill]

OK, so my confusion seems to be this. There is general agreement that 102 means sidetone, and 202 means anti-sidetone. But isn't sidetone vs anti-sidetone determined by what is in the subset, not what is in the base? Therefore, a 102 could be either sidetone or anti-sidetone, depending on what subset it is connected to. Ditto the 202.

My D1 base (202?) came with a 334A subset. Three-wire base-to-handset cord, 3-wire subset-to-base cord, and No. 20 induction coil. Doesn't that make it a sidetone phone? I suppose someone could have put on the wrong subset at some point, and changed out all the cords - but why?

It also has the E1 handset with the old microphone element and spitcup, which I think implies that it was one of the early production units - probably between 1930 and 1933.

Yup, I'm confused!

Bill

[HobieSport]

I'm just confused.

[bingster]

OK, so my confusion seems to be this. There is general agreement that 102 means sidetone, and 202 means anti-sidetone. But isn't sidetone vs anti-sidetone determined by what is in the subset, not what is in the base? Therefore, a 102 could be either sidetone or anti-sidetone, depending on what subset it is connected to. Ditto the 202.

Ahhh, I see.  Technically, you're right--subsets are either sidetone or anti-sidetone by virtue of their induction coils.  Telephones aren't inherently one way or the other.  Rather the telephones themselves are either capable of taking advantage of the subset's anti-sidetone properties, or they're not capable of it.

Whether they are or not is determined by the number of contacts in the phone's switch-hook pileup, which is why we say that really old phones (with only a few contacts) can be connected to an anti-sidetone subset, but it won't make the old phone an anti-sidetone phone--such old phones just aren't constructed to be able to take advantage of that technology.  B and D mounts, though, DO contain the switch contacts to allow them to take advantage of a subset's anti-sidetone properties.  

So even if you have a mount that's capable of being part of an anti-sidetone setup, if it's got a three conductor mounting cord, and/or is connected to a sidetone subset, it won't be an anti-sidetone phone. It's capable of it--but only with the correct mounting cord and subset.

[Bill]

Thanks, Bingster. That is perhaps the most cogent discussion of the matter that I have seen, and it has cleared up my confusion.

By the way, I'm having trouble finding an actual source for Larry Wolff's book. Lots of mentions, lots of sites that say it is a great book - but none that actually seem to have it for sale. Nothing on Amazon, not on ATCA, etc. Ideas?

Bill

[BDM]

Try here. I called them and confirmed they have it in stock. It's a re-print, not the original book. But it has everything from the original book.
http://www.phonecoinc.com/topic.asp?map=1&horh=home&gorl=list&group=main&category=Books&topic=01001

[Bill]

Ouch! $40 for a xerox copy in a GBC binding? I may have to find a copy elsewhere - maybe the library.

Many thanks for taking the time to check it out and post the link for me, though.

Bill