This problem occurs if you're outside the US and want to have correct North American dial tone, busy tone etc for US phones.
At the moment I use an Auerswald 4020 PBX to handle all my phones, but it provides only German tones. But I want US tones for my phones. So I'm thinking of the best way to do so. I don't have the space for Chuck Richards tone plant fur sure, even if that would supply old dial tone! So what to do? I was thinking of using a Panasonic PBX after my Auerswald (guess it provides correct tones) but there are difficulties. 50hz here, not 60. There would be a possibility with transforming 110 Volts 60hz to 220 Volts 50hz but that is expensive and mybe not the smothest way. Anyone here with a better idea? If there is a possibility in getting the old US dial tone would be great but "standart" modern North American dial tone etc will do.
Haf
I've used Audacity in the past to generate tones (dial tone, ringing tones, busy tones, etc.), but haven't a clue how you'd go about injecting them into an electronic PABX without poking about inside the thing with an oscilloscope to find where the tones come from and break into the circuitry physically to replace them with an externally generated set of tones...
twocvbloke,
generating the tone is not the problem, even if the old US dial tone seems to be a bit more complicated. Bill Guerts can tell you more about I believe. But you're right, how to insert the tones to my Auerswald, if? I even wrote to the manufacturer, but no answer. I guess the manufacturer should have the possibility to upload those tones to the ram (or whatever, no expert in this).
But there must be another, more simple way. at least I hope so. But as you're here, let me confirm something. I read that there is a Panasonic UK version with 220 volts and 50hz. Does this unit has US or UK tones? and are they maybe changeable?
Haf
The UK Panasonics have the same tone generated within the units, the only difference is the ringing cadences, external calls are the .4 on .2 off .4 on 2 off type ring, and the internal calls are the 2 on 4 off, the voltage & frequency have no bearing on what the unit generates... :)
As for whether they can be changed, I don't know that either, I've had a look around inside both my 308 and 616 and couldn't really identify what does what so don't know where the tones are generated...
Quote from: twocvbloke on January 27, 2018, 07:16:14 PM
The UK Panasonics have the same tone generated within the units,
And is it the UK or the US tone? If they where sold in the UK I suppose equipped with UK tone.
Haf
It's a tone unique to the Panasonic units, presumably sounding different to differentiate between an internal and external call, I don't know what frequencies they use to generate the tone, but it's nothing like the UK or US tone...
Oh, well...then this is not the solution. Whould have been to easy, wouldn't it? The Auerswald PBX I use simulates the German dial tone. Maybe someone has another idea for my problem. I still believe it can be done somehow.
I did some research in the past, this is the tone what I am referring to as old dial tone:
http://elmercat.org/phone/chuck/
Haf
Yeah, using modern means to generate tones that were often electromechanical in nature isn't easy, after all, it's hard to compete with the real thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzIXvO6RahQ
With Audacity, I can make a tone that kind of sounds like the dialtone there, by generating a 50Hz sawtooth wave (some exchanges also used 33Hz), but doesn't sound as good as the real thing, even piped through a telephone... :-\
yeah...even if it looks way complicated doing this with electromechanical devices (and believe me, I do not understand a single of those diagrams) it should be more or less easy be done with a computer. In the article is one to me familiar name: "Bill Guerts built it that way and he says it sounds fine."
The maybe hardest thing is...how to provide it to my phones? I can support POTS, ISDN and VoIP here with one or another of my devices. So whatever can provide old or at least North American modern tones to my phones would be fine.
Raiding the CO is no option btw ;)
There is one option for getting the tones to your phones, assembling your own switching exchange... ;D
I was really considering that option, yes. Already took a short look on ebay about equipment offered. But, as I wrote, matter of space, money and knowledge. Must be a more easy way...at least I hope so :)
Haf
I think the easiest way was as I'd mentioned earlier, probing the inside of a PABX to find where the tone comes from and interrupting the circuit to inject an external (MP3 player?) audio source with the appropriate dialtone on there, which sounds a lot easier than it probably is...
Haf, If you look at this document: https://goo.gl/nFY2dT you may see that also the UK dial tone has been used in the US.
Not sure about the Difference between US and US Panasonic exchanges, but they should not relay on mains frequency since battery backup is an option. By that reason you should be able to run a US exchange an a 50Hz supply of a suitable voltage.
I may try to get a you a recording of the UK Panasonic dial tone.
dsk
The dial tone (UK Panasonic KX-T 616 10) looks like this.
To get a sound: enclosed zip files are allowed. or listen here: https://instaud.io/1I3e (https://instaud.io/1I3e)
Picture from: https://academo.org/demos/spectrum-analyzer/ (https://academo.org/demos/spectrum-analyzer/)
My guess is approx 350+440 Hz Maybe, a little under as 340+420 Hz
The 350+440 has been used in UK and USA according to the pdf in my over.
dsk
Looking at that file in audacity, it looks to be around about 350+450Hz, doesn't sound right when generating tones in another Audacity window though...
How does the recording sound in your ears?
dsk
Your recording sounds the same as my two Panasonics, but the tone I put together in Audacity to try and replicate it sounds more like a regular dialtone from a phoneline, I don't know how the Panasonic tone is generated, but it seems to be different somehow...
This is not a reply, nothing to add to the conversation, but I got to say you guys are deep into the weeds in this topic and I love it. Following along and learning new stuff (like that mechanical tone interrupter video), etc.
One suggestion, Audacity generates such a clean, clear tone at one frequency, anyone want to try to "fuzz" up each of the two used to see if that sound more like the old sound.
I did a quick and dirty mix of 350 and 450, each on two different tracks, and then used the Audacity Whawha effect to dirty up the tones. I used a different setting for each track using settings about 3, 0, 100, 10, 90 for one track and then slightly different for the second track and then mixed them down into one mono track and got the attached file (sorry, it's a wav file in a zipped folder - no time to upload it to YouTube). Whawha was the first effect I tried that sort of worked. Other effects may be betterv - short on time here.
It's not perfect but shows you can dirty up each tone, using whatever effect you want, to make each tone fuzzy but different so the combination of both tracks yields, in this case, what I attached - something not like the pure tones.
You have to download and open the zipped folder to play the wav file.
Thanks for all your suggestions. I guess how to generate the tone is quite clear (for the ones able to understand those diagrams, ...so not soo clear to me), take a look on the link I posted. I wish phonesrfun would join at this point as he seems to have done it all before. But still the problem how to supply to my phones. It seems to be easy solved if you know which part of the pbx support the tone and simply change it by uploading something that is more appropriate- I don't have the slightest idea how ;) Of course the Auerswald has the possibility to connect an extern sound device, but only for announcements or whatever, tone is different, as it has to be the right one according to the status of dialing...dial tone, ringback tone, busy tone. Bit more complicated. If no solution can be found here I will again write to the manufacturer if he sees any possibility in uploading it to the pbx. If anybody should know about how this can be done, he should.
But mayb we'll find something else.
Oh, and dsk, I found something for you:
http://www.bayern-online.com/v2261/artikel.cfm/203/Ruf-u-Signalmaschine.html
Tone generator from Norway :)
Haf
Use a VoIP ATA (analogue terminal adapter) to provide the US tones to the phone, and the FXO / line pass through port to connect to your switchboard, and set the ATA dial plan to route all outgoing calls to the FXO line. This will give you US dialling tone, but all the other call progress tones will be returned by your switchboard.
Owain,
even if I just understand half of it (sorry for my lack of knowledge) it sounds maybe promising.
But I just regognized I should better explain my current setup.
My main provider is German telekom, providing me with internet and VoIP phone (only one available here in Germany, POTS and ISDN are discontinued). After first wall outlet there is my Speedport W 925V router. This one manges the VoIP numbers from German Telekom and my other VoIP providers, like a very basic PBX. But it has simulated ISDN via S0 Bus, this is where my Auerswald PBX is connected to. It's a ISDN PBX. From the Auerswald all my phone numbers (8 at the moment, 6 German, 2 US phone numbers) are divided to the belonging phones. At least 1 for each number.
Were would you suggest to integrate the ATA? After the router but ahead of the Auerswald? I have to admit I don't really know much about ATA's. Does the ATA provide dial tone itself? And what about ringing voltage an frequency? My PBX has a ringing frequency of 25 Hz, 30 Hz would do to, but 50 Hz for example won't. All my phones need a frequency of about 25-30 Hz and pulse dialing of course.
Haf
Is it possible to alter the tones on your VoIP box? I think I set my Linksys PAP2T to different tones & cadences (for fun) in the past through its' advanced settings pages, so that could be a way to change tones to ones you like, though I don't know if it'll do the "city tone" that was shown earlier... :)
twocvbloke,
no I don't think so. As I wrote, only a very basic PBX. The Auerswald can alter the ringing cadences (but not the tones sadly), as far I remember I have about 9 or more different ringing schemes (which are not in use now but maybe helpful when simulating party line ringing)
Oh, and I forgot to mention that my home is wired with a special payphone line, 3 wires, R, T and GND for the 110 volts to operate the coin relays of my payphones. All controlled in my own little "Central Office" with Stan's controller. But this has nothing to do with my problem discussed here of course.
Quote from: Haf on January 28, 2018, 04:58:22 PM
Oh, and dsk, I found something for you:
http://www.bayern-online.com/v2261/artikel.cfm/203/Ruf-u-Signalmaschine.html (http://www.bayern-online.com/v2261/artikel.cfm/203/Ruf-u-Signalmaschine.html)
Tone generator from Norway :)
Haf
Great!
Now, take a good look at it and make 2, then adjust speed until you get the right tones, then connect it to replace your sound source in your exchange ... problem solved! ;D ;D ;D I hope listening to the sound I recorded helped you about deciding to test or not to test a Panasonic.
Another problem with those really old dial tones are the interference with the DTMF recognision, that makes the ATA idea less worth, you need the exchange accepting pulses, changing the dial tone may result in an exchange not accepting touch tones.
After some advice's from other hobbyists my payphone (AE 120B) has a dial tone on the ATA made of 200 and 233 Hz, this is not the old dial tone, but most people do recognize it as the old dial tone. DTMF works great.
With the right setup on the linksys pap2t and a diy payphone controller the phone collects if party answers, and returns when no answer. All calls: 25 cents :)
dsk
Haf
Assuming you were able to use a Panasonic 616 or similar PBX in Germany would it give you all the tones you're looking for without any further complications?
Stan S.
Stan,
as I learned here, the Panasonic has its own tone, not the real North American dial tone. If there would be another PBX providing correct tones and able to handle old pulse dialing phones- yes, that would be a solution. If anybody knows a PBX doing that, I would be glad to hear about.
Oh..and all the tones, well..old dial tone rather not, no matter what PBX I guess, unless tones are changeable or able to modify.
Haf
The PAX from TN dated 1972 had a tone unit as a module, this one modulated the tone (transistors), and a rotating motor with Cams made the dial tone (morse signal) busy and ringing, I am pretty sure this could be replaced with some other tone source(s) I that might be an idea. T&N should be available in your country.
dsk
dsk,
most RSM (Ruf- und Signalmaschine) here where build either by Siemens or Lorenz. T&N made ones too? well, I found some on ebay but missed them. Those units show up on ebay from time to time and are not that expensive:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Ruf-und-Signal-Maschine-2-VA-C-Lorenz/162771415898?hash=item25e5eeb35a:g:yBcAAOSwldRaFzkC
https://www.ebay.de/itm/RSM-15-VA-Ruf-und-Signal-Maschine-SIEMENS-Fg-RSM-60-15-19-Nr-L2-458/322947635405?hash=item4b312dd8cd:g:kYQAAOSwCMFaOWeX
https://www.ebay.de/itm/RSM-Ruf-und-Signalmaschine-aus-Bundespost-oder-Bundesbahn-Vermittlung/202124805060?hash=item2f0f93c3c4:g:QAEAAOSwZB9aGZK-
But...they produce German dial tone again. I don't know if you can modify them to produce US city dial tone, even if those where build similar with cams. The one in the picture would be just perfect...but I don't want to imagine shipping costs if ever possible to get one at all.
And if I take and possible modify the German RSM, still have to integrate it into my system somehow. Or change everything to a PAX like you have. Btw, do you know about electricity prices here? ;)
I just found something interesting (to save as pdf you have to upgrade to premium, didn't want to do that, so only the link)
http://www.instructables.com/id/Electromechanical-Tone-Generator/
Way obove my abilities and knowledge of understanding, but for those of you who understand maybe something of interest
Haf
I think this would dowhat you want,I used them in the payphone industry. You insert one or more dial tones and it shares it over multiple stations. The dial tone generated is fake American dial tone on the phone placed on the station side. So the trunk plunged in I assume it only sees the voltage. So it should translate the dial tone. In other words you would never hear the dial tone except for what is genarated by the line share device. It can also be daisy changed. So you could provide dial tone to a entire collection without having to buy a PBX these are also fairly cheap and do appear on eBay.
http://www.lineshare.com/products/specifications/series4000_mod4000.htm
Quote from: Haf on January 28, 2018, 07:06:10 PM
Were would you suggest to integrate the ATA? After the router but ahead of the Auerswald? I have to admit I don't really know much about ATA's. Does the ATA provide dial tone itself? And what about ringing voltage an frequency?
The ATA would go on the analogue extension ports of the Auerswald, and the ATA provides dialling tone, and ringing voltage/frequency/cadence for VoIP calls -- different ATA might provide ringing voltage/frequency/cadence for analogue calls, or might simply pass-through the analogue line.
You'd need one ATA for each analogue extension port. Some handle pulse dialling, some don't.
Just a short update.
I'm still doing research and working on that problem. If an ATA is needed for any phone it would be difficult and quite expensive as many are needed then.
Jims solution, if I got it right then for every CO line one is needed and can then be diverted to the phones with that number. I have 12 different Numbers so far, so would need one for every number...too much either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=83&v=uaQm30DDHL8
This are the tones I would love to have. Working on it.
Haf
That dial tone will not work on a service accepting DTMF, only rotary. My PAX has something close to that made by an electromechanical buzzer tuned to something slightly over 425Hz, but the resonant more or less harmonics makes that sound, how to solve it? I have no solution so far.
dsk
Quote from: dsk on March 03, 2018, 10:09:56 AM
That dial tone will not work on a service accepting DTMF, only rotary. My PAX has something close to that made by an electromechanical buzzer tuned to something slightly over 425Hz, but the resonant more or less harmonics makes that sound, how to solve it? I have no solution so far.
dsk
Quebec City had Digitone (DTMF) converters in Step-by-Step 418-524 C.O. -- with the old dial tone in 1984.
dsk
that was why they changed to precise dialtone, yes, because of the DTMF. I don't have anything that modern here so the old one would work just fine :)
Haf
Long ago but not forgotten, here is a little update.
I bought an XLink BTTN Bluetooth gateway. A step ahead but haven't reached my goal so far. I have North American dial tone, rinback tone etc when only have a cellphone connected. As soon as I connect landline, it overrides the tones. We'll work on that. And it does not have "old tones" but..
Here is a mail I wrote to XLink support: ".....Second, would it be possible to add old US ,,City dial tone" to the selection the Xlink BTTN is providing to choose? This would be great and time accurate for collectors of pre war US phones.
I attach you three wav files with the 1936 examples of different tones I'm talking about. If you need further information, I would be pleased to help you...."
And their answer:"2. Thanks for the information about 'old' tones. I did not know this. I might be able to generate them, but I need the information of what frequencies they are. I have the ability to generate 4 sine waves. I cannot use mp3 files.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Cheers,
XS"
Sounds promising :) But I can't tell how those tones are mixed up and if those mentioned 4 sine waves are what you need. Anyone here can help please what I should answer to XLink?
I attach 3 wav files with a "cleaned" version of Dial/Busy and Ringback tone, taken from a 1936 AT&T film about the new self dial service. This is how I imagine old tones have to sound for my phones. I would wish it might be possible for the XLink BBTN.
Haf