Popping sound when dialing a Western Electric 102 B1 wired to a 534A sub-box

[Ktownphoneco]

Western & Northern dials are calibrated to produce around 10 pulses per second (pps) when dialing "zero".   On a field test, if they fall within 8 to 11 pps, no adjustment is needed.      The pulsing contacts are adjusted to a break / make of 60-40.      In other words, they are apart 60 percent of the time, and together 40 percent of the time it takes to dial the digit "1".     Obviously, that 60 / 40 sequence will occur 10 times when dialing the digit "zero".       The top 2 springs on a 5H dial are the pulse springs, the remainder are shunt springs.
Check the bottom 4 contacts in the spring switch pile-up on the back of the dial.   Counting the springs from the bottom 1, 2, 3, and 4.    Look at the dial at rest.    Spring 2 should be firmly against spring 1 (W) connection.       Reach around and start moving the dial off the rest position, as if to dial a digit.     Spring 2 should start moving away from spring 1 and be fully clear of it, before spring 3 makes contact with the 4th spring from the bottom.     If that's what you see, then move to check the hook switch.
Allow the hook switch plunger to release all the way up.      Tilt the set over to any angle where you can observe when the spring switches mate with each other.     Identify the two springs connected to the brass terminals marked (W) and (GN).    Press the plunger all the way down.   Now slowly release the plunger and watch the sequence in which the springs in the hook switch come together.     The spring connected to the brass terminal marked (GN) should be the last spring to make contact, and it will contact the spring connected to the brass terminal marked (W).

See what that does.

Jeff Lamb

[Jf510]

Hey Jeff....Thanks for that info. I appreciate it. I had a 302 that also had a loud pop and your adjustments of the contacts on the dial worked great but the 102 is still has a loud pop. The contacts on the dial and switch look fine according to your instructions. This was the phone that I also changed the sub-box with no change to the loud popping. I have two other 102's that do not pop like that so I am not sure what else to try on this one.

[Ktownphoneco]

The desk set itself is wired correctly, and I have to assume the subset is as well, because I can't trace wires in a harness.       But you have attached another set to it, and it worked correctly, so I'll assume the subset is fine.     Everything now seems to point at the hook switch springs.      The actuator on the end of the hook switch plunger : is there any bare metal part on the actuator touching any of the hook switch springs ?     They shouldn't come in electrical contact with anything else but themselves.
Western made 2 or 3 improvements / changes to the actuator assembly mounted to the end of the plunger.    One of the two I'm most familiar with, had two legs coming off the bracket portion of the actuator, and there were two small, round fiber disks on each arm, which made contact with the nickel switch springs on either side.    But I can't see if they're present on yours, because obviously, if they are there, there hidden by the springs themselves.
Check and make sure there's to switch spring contact occurring with the actuator.    Also take a piece of 600 grit wet/dry emery paper and burnish the contact points between the hook switch springs that make contact with each other.     They sometimes get pitted through years of use.

Jeff
   

[Ktownphoneco]

That 3rd last sentence of my last post doesn't make a lot of sense.   It should say, "make sure there isn't any metal to metal contact between the springs in the hook switch pile-up, and the actuator at the end of the hook switch plunger assembly.

Jeff

[Wallphone]

I'm a little rusty on my troubleshooting right now, but I thought that anytime you hear a pop in the receiver you either have a condenser/capacitor not doing it's job, or you need to put a small one (capacitor) across the receiver. I have most of my phone stuff on my old XP computer hard drive. I'll crank it up tomorrow and see if I  can find any info on this problem.

Doug

[Jack Ryan]

I haven't played with a B1/102 for a while but isn't the "return to normal" pop a feature of that circuit?

The capacitor charges via the ringer when the dial is off normal and discharges via the receiver (pops) when the dial returns to normal. As long as the dial off normal contacts are adjusted properly, the remaining click is a feature.

Try disconnecting the bell - if the pop disappears, that is the problem (feature). Any residual pop might mean that the dial off normal contacts need adjustment.

Jack

[Phonesrfun]

I believe this might be simple.  I have had this problem with 534A and 295A subsets.  These earlier subsets have a single capacitor that serves a dual purpose.  It is both the ringer capacitor and the talking capacitor.  I think you will find that if you temporarily disconnect one side of the ringer wire (Thus disabling ringing) your problem will go away.  This is not necessarily indicative of a bad capacitor, but rather the capacitor discharging slightly through the receiver after being charged from ringing.

The only way to get full silencing (no pops) and not disable the ringer may be to split the ringing circuit into its own with a separate capacitor.  Try disconnecting he ringer and see if the pops go away.


****Update*** I just read Jack Ryan's post immediately before mine.  Looks like great minds think alike 

[Ktownphoneco]

I guess I'm under a misconception here.      I was making an assumption that the "popping sound", is, as I call it, a "snapping sound", was above and beyond the normal that one could, or would, experience with a Western 102 connected to a 534 side tone subscriber set.      If that is the case, I'm way off base, and Jack Ryan and Phonesrfun are correct in the their prognosis with regard to the condenser issue.     W.E. 102 receivers, connected to that type of subset, do produce a (this is my term) slight snapping sound when the dial returns to the at rest position.
However, I did make the assumption that the (I'll stick to the terminology in play here) "popping sound" was in excess of the "norm".      With that in mind, I first wanted to make sure of the spring switch function of the dial.       Without the dial in my hands, and being able to do all the things I normally do with a dial when I service and calibrate them, I have to rely on the picture of the dial as it sites on this web site, and what I'm told.  Since "jf510" advised that the dial "seems" to be functioning correctly, and that he'd tried another subset and was getting the same symptoms, I focused on the desk set itself.      The dial issues aside, I focused on the hook switch actuator attached to the end of the hook switch plunger.       If there is a "metal to metal" contact between the actuator and the hook switch springs, then this can produce inordinate electrical issues, which in the case of a telephone, can be translated to improper noises in the talk / receive circuit.

Since the hook switch actuator appears to be of the "home made" variety, I thought a look at that issue was in order.     Now perhaps Western has "slid one by" me, but I rather doubt it.   I'm only familiar with 3 types.  (1) has a metal bracket at the end of the hook switch plunger, with 2 small composite wheels, which push against the actual hook switch springs on one side, while the other pushes against the (for lack of a better expression) helper spring on the other.    Unfortunateley I can't find a picture of one at the moment.     The other two that I'm familiar with are as depicted in the attached photos.        I've added some script to "jf510's" photo of the interior of the base, showing the existing actuator.       I've never seen one before, and I'm willing to bet it's home made.       But, hey, I've been wrong before.      If it's home made, was it made correctly ?       I can't see it well enough to come to any sort of conclusion, one way or the other.

Have an enjoyable evening.         Pictures attached.

Jeff Lamb

       

[Ktownphoneco]

Sorry folks, as per usual, anytime I try to upload pictures to a discussion, it never seems to work right.    Attached is a single "pdf" showing all 3 pictures that I tried to insert in the last message.

Jeff Lamb

[Jack Ryan]

I was making an assumption that the "popping sound", is, as I call it, a "snapping sound", was above and beyond the normal that one could, or would, experience with a Western 102 connected to a 534 side tone subscriber set.Jeff Lamb

Jeff,

I guess we are both making assumptions - I assumed it was a "Pop", not a "POP". In this case, if the ringer is disconnected we can eliminate the "Pop" and if a "POP" remains, continue the diagnosis. I hadn't noticed the hook switch actuator - good spotting.

In the end, if we can eliminate anything that is easily eliminated, what remains is much closer to the real problem.

Regards
Jack

[poplar1]

There appear to be at least two different factory versions, not including the "later version" Jeff mentioned, which was  used when the WE repair shops  refurbished B1s by adding bifurcated contact springs. (Note the 1936? refurb stamp in Jeff's picture.)

(1) dome shaped black "bumpers" --c. 1928-1929

(2) single rectangular bar (like Jf510's) -- c. 1930

Also, there may be a third version, like the "wheels" on the early D1s with single contacts. Note that the part is reversed in the D1 because the distance from the contacts is different.

[Ktownphoneco]

Thanks Popular1 for the pictures.      I've saved them to file for future reference.    I'd be interested to know the "official" time sequence as to their use, but I think I can guess in which order they were produced.       
Jack, I get suspicious about anything I'm not familiar with insofar as the electrical circuit of a telephone goes.      Since I was unaware of the existence of the actuator on the set in question, I immediately had that "there's something not right here" thought.    Coupled with the fact that it a lot of 102 / 202 telephone sets, are assumed to have hook switch plungers that are totally insulated from the rest of the telephone, they will over time develop a inconsistent physical / electrical connection with the body of the set.     Western, and Northern for that matter, placed a small brass or nickel alignment sleeve at one end of the pedestal at the top of the plunger, which over time, will wear through the paint, on both it, and the inside of the cavity into which it slides, and which is located in the cradle's base.     Once the paint wears away, there's an inconsistent connection between some parts of the actuator and the set's housing.   
But if the said "popping" is of the normal "garden" variety, then there's nothing out of the ordinary going on.       If it's loud and obnoxious like a drunk at a garden party, then there's something else going on.

Have a nice evening.

Jeff Lamb
 

[Phonesrfun]

Seriously, though, try to disconnect one side of the ringer and see if that eliminates the problem. Not permanantly, of course, but just to see.  If all is quiet with no popping with the ringer disconnected, you will know it is not the dial switch or the hookswitch that is at fault.

[Ktownphoneco]

Bill   ...    Yes, that would do it.     

Jeff

[Pourme]

I know this thread is over a year old but, I used sed it today to properly wire my B-1 to a subset and it is now working beautifully!....

Just wanted to thank Unbeldi for posting the photos of the proper wiring....and the rest of the phone whispers for the helpful comments!

Benny