Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Identification, Repair & Restoration => Technical "Stuff" => AE => Topic started by: HobieSport on October 27, 2008, 04:02:11 PM

Title: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: HobieSport on October 27, 2008, 04:02:11 PM
Howdy All,

I just received my first AE 40 into my hot little hands today.  I'd never seen one up close and personal before. Must say she's impressive.  All in working order, VERY clean inside, dial is very smooth, and this is not a refurbished piece. 

As far as I can tell, the only thing done to this phone is the line cord was replaced with a cheap modern cord just to go modular.  Only parts missing are the dial card ring and rubber foot gasket, and she'll get a new cloth line cord just for looks, and of course a good cleaning/polishing. Not bad for $20. :)  Naturally I'm very pleased and a bit in awe, and will post before/after pics when I get the parts and spiff her up.

So just one question:  Where does one find the date(s) on an AE40? (One place I haven't been able to look is in the earpiece on the headset, as I can't get it open.  Any tips on unscrewing a stuck headset?)

-Matt :P
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: benhutcherson on October 27, 2008, 05:48:14 PM
I've had my AE40 apart inside and out, and have not found a date on it anywhere. So, sorry, I don't have any answers for you there.

As I recall, the transmitter cover on mine was nigh on impossible to remove. I was able to get it to come off using a strap wrench, but not without some effort.

In the time since, I've had several other phones where I couldn't get the caps off, especially G1 handsets refurbished with thermoplastic caps(not all that uncommon). In all of the cases since then, I've had good luck first sticking the handset in the freezer, and then using the strap wrench.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: McHeath on October 27, 2008, 07:11:47 PM
Never seen an AE 40 in person but they are pretty in pictures.  Looking forward to seeing yours, and that is odd that there are no date codes on it. 
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: HobieSport on October 27, 2008, 07:50:32 PM
Yes McHeath, The AE 40s are one of my favorites, just for looks.  They seem very well built also.  Mine looks just about like the rest of them in basic black.  No chrome on this baby except the cradle buttons.

Ben,  Just curious, what did your AE40 interior look like when you first opened it up?  I'm really surprised how clean mine is and I don't see any evidence of a refurbishing job.  Really too bad AE didn't date the components like WE and the others.

I suspect mine is a later model, just because of the great condition, but darnit I'd really like to know her birth year!  -Matt
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: benhutcherson on October 27, 2008, 08:48:04 PM
Matt,
Mine was an absolute filthy wreck when I first got it. Mine belonged to a great aunt, who had, apparently, used it illegally in an upstairs bedroom for several years(the ringer was disconnected)-all in all somewhat surprising since she has several nephews who worked for the phone company.

In any case, I found it on a shelf in her basement after she died, where I would guess it had been for years. The dial was completely stuck, which would be my guess as to why it was taken out of service in the first place.

This same aunt used a single 554 mounted in the center of her house, with a really long handset cord, right up until her death in 2004.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: HobieSport on October 27, 2008, 08:57:51 PM
Ben, I got the handset cap unstuck with the freezer method.  But no dates.  Lot's of numbers all over the phone tho.  I wonder if some can be translated into dates.  I'll keep looking and asking around.

Ah, the venerable 544.  That was our family phone.  Black. Black metal dial.  In the kitchen/dining room. 1959-1971. Never serviced.  It might still be there now for all I know.  I'll ask, as I know who lives there.  I still remember our phone number.  Ah...Memories... ;)  -Matt
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: McHeath on October 27, 2008, 09:38:05 PM
My mom used a 554 in the kitchen as the main phone from 1955 until 84' when Pacific Telesis took it away from her and gave her a 2554 in it's place.  She is of course still using it, still in the kitchen, with a 25 foot cord, as her main phone. 

Speaking of still using rotary phones, I came across a student last week who could dial my rotary phone in class with no problems, first time ever that a student has known what to do with the dial.  When questioned as to how he knew that he replied that they have two of them at home, "with that turn thing on them", one is a desk phone in the bedroom and the other on the wall in the kitchen.  Further questioning found that they have no other phones, no cell phones, no touch tone, just what I assume is a 554 and 500. 
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: mienaichizu on October 28, 2008, 03:24:08 AM
someone has offering me an AE40, an ivory colored one, I still did not get it because it is sold part by part, not as a whole

I also want an AE40 for my collection but its hard to find here in the Philippines, mostly AE 80's are available here, and only the black color
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: Dan/Panther on October 28, 2008, 12:12:28 PM
Matt;
If you are having trouble dating your AE40, maybe she's too old for you, or not your type.
D/P
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: HobieSport on October 28, 2008, 12:56:06 PM
Dan, I thought of giving the AE40 a box of chocolates, flowers, and a pink princess phone.  Dinner and a movie is not out of the question.  I guess I got spoiled with Western Electric where dates were printed. :)





Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: HobieSport on October 29, 2008, 01:52:41 PM
Well I guess we have the answer:  I emailed Mike at Old Phone Works and here is what he wrote:

"Hi Matt,
You guys are not alone. The AE date code has always been a mystery and it looks like it will remain that way. We have talked to collectors from all over and no one is sure how this worked. We have even talked to former AE employees who did not know. If you ever turn something up, please let us know.
Thank you, Mike"

So that's it, I reckon.  -Matt
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: pdemming on January 10, 2011, 07:41:47 PM
Hi guys and Gal's (are there any here?), anyway, new to the site.
     I just finished refurbing an AE40 produced ~1953. I know this because the wiring diagram label glued to the inside bottom was printed in that year. But I am curious if anyone has a general idea of when production began and stopped? Also, did this phone ever have the chrome rings on the handset. I think that would really make it look tough. Also, I am having the same problem so many of you have had with the stuck transmitter cup. Theres a cup strap in my future....
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: jsowers on January 10, 2011, 08:18:56 PM
The Telephonearchive site says 1939-1950s. I would say about 1955 or 56 may be the approximate end date. But they were installed and used far beyond that date. I grew up with one of these as our only phone. It was installed in 1953 when my parents built their house and used up until sometime in the 1970s when we got an AE80, also black.

They had chrome bands on the handset and a chrome fingerwheel sometimes, but in my experience those were the fancier private line models that had straight line ringers (not frequency ringers like ours). Ours was black with no chrome except on the fingerstop and handhold.

They were made of Bakelite and you should beware of cracks in them. They also came in color with gold fingerwheels and handset bands (see link).

http://www.telephonearchive.com/phones/ae/ae40.html (http://www.telephonearchive.com/phones/ae/ae40.html)

And welcome to the Forum. Yes, there are gals here too. We're all one big happy family.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: bushman on January 10, 2011, 10:06:07 PM
Thread Hijack!  Which years did they use the pivoting butlers handles?  I will be looking for one once I finish the shell repair.

Bushman
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 10, 2011, 10:54:22 PM
I think there was some overlap in production of the AE40 and the AE80. Therefore I think they were still making them until close to the end of the 1950's. So probably a run of almost 20 years.

I guess it was up to each operating company whether they ordered them with or without chrome and where they used each variation. Here in British Columbia I have never seen any indication of a higher rent on the chromed 40's so I have no idea why they ordered some with and some without.

Around here I ssem to find at least 25% of the 40's and 50's with chrome bands and maybe as many as 35%. We had our own shops that refurbished our phones over and over again so mixtures of chrome developed as well. The available chrome options include the two handset bands, the fingerwheel, the carry bar and the plunger buttons.

A guy I work with sticks to the story that he removed some manual 40's from an old hotel in Vancouver in the late 70's that had a chrome piece fitted between the base gasket and the bakelite phone body that rose up each side with slots cut into it at the vents. I suspect he was dreaming it but who knows for sure. There is always the possibility that they were an experimental dress up item from AE (or maybe just AE Canada) that happened to get installed at this hotel and they lasted until an automatic PBX was installed. He "recovered" them (turned them in rather than taking things home like I do) because they didn't have dials. CRAP....

I would speculate that the Buttlers Handles were from the early days. At introduction the 40 didn't have a way to carry them around at all. The two indents in each side by the plungers was molded into the bakelite as a place to put your fingers and squeze to prevent the phone from falling from your grip. There was an early model with completely smooth sides too. Paul might have a picture on his web site?

The earliest 40's had the metal blocks that the plungers protrude through because the hook switch pileup screws into the back of these blocks. Early blocks didn't have the little holes drilled into the side for the buttlers handle but many did have the holes presumably because they originally came with buttlers handles (or they were an option maybe?). The buttlers handles are rarely seen these days because they tended to come out of the holes and get lost.

The final outcome of the quest to build a better handle is the common carry bar that includes the blocks for the plungers. It isn't hard to see that this was an afterthought when you look at it as it awkwardly sweeps backwards from the blocks to allow room to "almost" get your fingers in under it to carry the phone without too much chance of dropping it.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: Greg G. on January 11, 2011, 04:56:29 AM
Good timing on this question.  A lady friend was admiring my AE40, and I cannot find the manufacture date on it anywhere.  Where did they usually put it?
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 11, 2011, 10:55:08 AM
Quote from: Brinybay on January 11, 2011, 04:56:29 AM
Good timing on this question.  A lady friend was admiring my AE40, and I cannot find the manufacture date on it anywhere.  Where did they usually put it?

They didn't. You are on your own trying to figure it out. Back then BC Telephone inspected all the phones in our shops when they arrived from the manufacturer and we placed a dated sticker on the bottom. The only problem is that of course they got a new dated sticker when they came back in for rehab and redeployment. I have seen some of these phones on ebaY a long way from British Columbia. The sticker has "Canadian (BC) Telephones & Supplies" on it. That is the company I began my career in the telephone business with (CT&S). CT&S was the company that installed all of BC Tel's switching equipment in the CO's as well as being the "middleman" supplier of all materials to BC Tel.

One thing I would like to do one day is open up a bunch of 40's & 50's to determine when they changed from fabric to plastric wiring inside to help narrow manufacture dates down.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: Greg G. on January 11, 2011, 05:19:40 PM
Quote from: ae_collector on January 11, 2011, 10:55:08 AM
Quote from: Brinybay on January 11, 2011, 04:56:29 AM
Good timing on this question.  A lady friend was admiring my AE40, and I cannot find the manufacture date on it anywhere.  Where did they usually put it?

They didn't. You are on your own trying to figure it out. Terry

I'll quit looking for it then.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 11, 2011, 05:30:01 PM
Quote from: Brinybay on January 11, 2011, 05:19:40 PM
I'll quit looking for it then.

Yeah, give up looking while you're still ahead"! I REALLY wish AE had been more like WECo and NECo as far as dating things goes.

They did get around to dating most of the 80's and 90's era phones in one way or another but only the base plate of the phones.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: HobieSport on January 11, 2011, 06:11:30 PM
Yep, it's always bothered my that AE didn't put dates on the components for the AE 40s and 50s. It's just that it takes some of the fun out of them. I just love reading dates on phones and figuring out what was going on in the world "in those days..."

Thanks for the general manufacturing dates though. So do we concur circa 1939 to 1956? And it's nice to know any other date-identification clues (dates on circuit labels, plastic vs cloth covered wires, etc..)

-Matt
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: JorgeAmely on January 11, 2011, 08:03:03 PM
Quote from: ae_collector on January 10, 2011, 10:54:22 PM
...  He "recovered" them (turned them in rather than taking things home like I do) because they didn't have dials. CRAP....
...
Terry

With the sole purpose of preserving telephone history, of course.  ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 11, 2011, 09:19:21 PM
Quote from: JorgeAmely on January 11, 2011, 08:03:03 PM
With the sole purpose of preserving telephone history, of course.  ;D ;D ;D

Someone has to do it! And it sure isn't the company I work for. There is no "past" as far as they are concerned.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: JorgeAmely on January 12, 2011, 12:06:52 AM
Terry:

I hope you don't take me seriously. I just love your candidness.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 12, 2011, 02:19:08 AM
Of course not. I just get serious when I think of how many times I have tried to get them to have some sort of display relating to the companies first 100 years but there just isn't any interest at all.

So I'll have to do it myself.  ::)

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: rdelius on January 12, 2011, 12:03:15 PM
I have seen the US navy version of the type 40 (type a?) with mid 1970s dates . The dials were a cross between the brass type 24 with some of the late plastic parts like the type 80e sets.Bought some NOS type 41 handsets that were late 70s-early 80s also
Robby
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: pdemming on January 12, 2011, 04:08:05 PM
Like I said my circuit diagram sheet glued to the inside bottom was dated. Also there is a remnant of a sticker that says Ontario, Canada. Guess it swam across Lake Erie to get here. ;D
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: LarryInMichigan on January 12, 2011, 04:34:53 PM
My AE50 was made by Phillips Electrical Works in Brockville, ON.  Production there ended in 1954, so any phone which was made there cannot be any later than 1954.  My phone probably crossed the Detroit or St Clair river :)


Larry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 12, 2011, 07:08:38 PM
Quote from: pdemming on January 12, 2011, 04:08:05 PM
Like I said my circuit diagram sheet glued to the inside bottom was dated. Also there is a remnant of a sticker that says Ontario, Canada. Guess it swam across Lake Erie to get here. ;D

Must be "AE Canada" or maybe even "Philips Electrical Works", both from Brockville Ontario. AE built a plant in 1953 or 1954 at Brockville and took over manufacturing AE equipment from Philips at that time.

So production at Philips ended in 53/54 but not necesarily the end of production of the AE40 in Canada. Philips stayed in business producing wire and cable as they always had done.

Don't know if your question about chrome banded caps ever got answered properly. You just need to find the caps WITH bands and replace the caps that are on your phone. The actual bands can't be put onto your existing caps unless you are real good with a lathe.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: recrum on November 19, 2011, 05:27:32 PM
Just adding more info to the mix to help with dating the 40's.  Maybe the experts have an idea which one is newer.

https://picasaweb.google.com/103615949723585341984/AEType40?authuser=0&feat=directlink ( dead link 03-11-21 )
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on November 19, 2011, 08:41:00 PM
Ah, one with routed grooves in the caps. Any chance you can do my AE codes survey to add the statistics to my data base. One day I hope to be able to decipher more of the codes on the base/back of these AE phones and possibly be able to narrow down the dates that any particular model was made.

AE Code Survey Thread:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=5514.msg67058#msg67058

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: recrum on November 19, 2011, 10:17:11 PM
Sure can!  Just printed it out.  Any thought on these two?  I'm just trying to get an idea of a parts timeline on when they would have used what, if that makes sense.  I wanted to piece the chrome banded one back to life, but didn't want to get things out of order so to speech.  But then I found out the parts phone I purchased was also kind of rare itself leaves me on the hunt for another parts phone.  Oh where does the insanity end.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on November 19, 2011, 10:48:03 PM
Quote from: recrum on November 19, 2011, 10:17:11 PM
Sure can!  Just printed it out.  Any thought on these two? 

Only in that cloth cords would be the oldest type and vinyl cords the newest. Rubber would be in between somewhere. Check inside to see if the inside wiring is cloth or plastic insulated. Also check to see if the dials are mounted to bakelite tabs in the dial opening or if they have the steel mounting ring that I tried to picture in the codes survey thread.

Another difference that comes up in these is the newer smaller ringers versus the older larger ringers. And some have two sperate capacitors in them, a large one on the base and a small one mounted to the side of the case while others have just the large capacitor with two seperate capacitors inside of it. I have wondered if the two seperate capacitors are used with certain frequency ringers that would have needed a different value capacitor.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: recrum on November 19, 2011, 11:40:03 PM
neither had the medal mounting ring for the dial, but both had two capasitors.  Rubber outside cloth inside.  I filled out the survey and posted to you thread.  Hopefully with the info someone maybe able to decipher which one is older.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: rdelius on November 20, 2011, 12:10:58 AM
Some of the earlier type 40s had no finger holds on the side like the type 34 sets.Have seen type 40s with black felt covered bases and a paper ae tag.These might have wartime .
Robby
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: recrum on November 20, 2011, 12:14:49 AM
what about holes in the plunger blocks?  I mean would the ones with holes for the carry handle have been earlier?
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on November 20, 2011, 12:27:48 AM
Quote from: rdelius on November 20, 2011, 12:10:58 AM
Some of the earlier type 40s had no finger holds on the side like the type 34 sets.Have seen type 40s with black felt covered bases and a paper ae tag.These might have wartime .
Robby

I have seen a picture of an Ivory 40 without the finger grips molded into the side. Would love to have one of them! I too have seen the paper tag rather than the gold transfer decal and I might have a 40 with the felt base. I recall a discussion about those on one of the lists a couple or more years ago. I think the conclusion on that might have been war time lack of rubber for the ring so felt was put on the base instead. And someone noted that a lot of the sets thus equipped seemed to be military and equipment destined for the military and other officail uses would have been all they were making for at least a couple of the war years.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on November 20, 2011, 12:32:29 AM
Quote from: recrum on November 20, 2011, 12:14:49 AM
what about holes in the plunger blocks?  I mean would the ones with holes for the carry handle have been earlier?

The indents in the side were the first thing added to help carry the phone around but most likely the version without the finger grips were just early field trial sets.

First came the plunger blocks without holes and then with holes for the Buttler Handle. Then the Carry Bar replaced the blocks and Buttler Handle. I think any phones that would have gone through a refurb process by AE or a Telco quite likely had a Carry Bar put on it to replace the earlier blocks so not a large number of 40's are seen with blocks.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: recrum on November 20, 2011, 12:53:00 AM
Sorry.  Link fixed to access whole album.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: GG on November 20, 2011, 06:20:05 AM


Felt-covered bases: that's new information.  Previously I would have thought a felt-covered base to be someone's attempt to refurbish a 40 without having the correct parts in hand, and doing the best they could.

However, as it turns out, during WW2, *rubber* was the scarcest resource, and gasoline rationing was done largely to reduce the consumption of *rubber tires!*

Back in those days, the US was not only fully self-sufficient in petroleum products, we were a net exporter.  Even with the war, petroleum fuels were not an inherent problem, other than the need to minimize consumption of all resources overall, to ensure there could be no sudden supply or price shocks at an unexpected moment.

However, rubber was the pinch point: there were no satisfactory synthetic replacements for it yet, despite the best efforts of both Allied and Axis powers to come up with something (and of course all of that work was classified).  Rubber was produced in only a few places in the world, primarily in South Asia, and every effort had to be made to prevent the Axis cutting off Allies' rubber supplies.  So by rationing gasoline, two goals were accomplished: preventing sudden changes in demand for petroleum, and more critically, reducing the consumption of tires, enabling the vital supplies of rubber to go into the war effort.

Toward that end, noncritical uses of rubber had to be curtailed for the duration.

And that dovetails perfectly with the finding of a felt base on a WW2-era Monophone. 

It also begs the question of why AE stuck with rubber in the first place, when leather and felt had proved satisfactory to WE and others.  Rubber as a few advantages: when it gets wet it's easily dried, it provides a firm grip on a tabletop, it doesn't tear in the manner of felt, and by leaving most of the baseplate exposed, it allows easier access to various mounting screws without need to have perforations in a leather or felt cover.  However, the manufacturing issues about perforations would be easy enough to solve.  This may have been a "tradition" thing with AE, using rubber gaskets since the type 21 desk stand and seeing no reason to switch (until the war made it necessary). 
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on November 20, 2011, 12:24:19 PM
I have seen the felt base with the paper AE label glued to the felt so that was not likely a reurbishers work. Of course gluing a paper label to felt wasn't ideal but it got the job done in a pinch.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: recrum on November 20, 2011, 01:42:44 PM
another difference I've spotted after further looking at the photos (which it's kind of obvious, don't know why i didn't see it earlier).  The coil on the one had a medal base and holes to kinda route the wires going to the base of the phone.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: recrum on November 20, 2011, 03:11:22 PM
One question?  where the patents specific to each individual phone?  The phone I have with the chrome bands and dial wheel has the patent number for the extensicord while the other phone does not.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: dsk on December 30, 2012, 01:20:33 PM
http://tinyurl.com/a9ml9m6
$35  seems to be OK for a SL ringer version?
dsk
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: HowardPgh on December 30, 2012, 05:03:57 PM
With out seeing the inside it is hard to tell. Even then there are no solid clues.  The SL sticker on the bottom probably says when a SL ringer was installed 1959?
The best place to start with the age is to know when the 40 model was discontinued.
Howard
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on December 30, 2012, 05:19:31 PM
AE 40's ran for about 20 years. They were introduced in either late 1938 or more likely 1939. They seem to have been produced until about 1959 or maybe even 1960 even though the replacement AE 80 was introduced in about 1955.

The receiver cap on this one looks to be either an early black painted brass band type or maybe more likely the grooved bakelite to look like a brass band. Either way, these are the very early style caps for this handset. The transmitter cap is smooth bakelite which is the much more common type produced. So which cap is original to the phone? No one knows. If it has cloth insulted wiring inside it is obviously one of the older ones. Plastic insulation is newer. One day I hope to find something that narrows down the time frame when they switched to plastic insulation. Lekely fairly soon after the war?

$35 is a decent price for this if no cracks. Too bad the caps didn't match though. The sticker would quite likely indicate iot has a SL ringer but the sticker is not a regular AE part, someone has added this. Probabaly refurbed in 1959 and sticker indicates that it is (or was then) a SL ringer.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: rdelius on December 30, 2012, 08:34:03 PM
The Navy version of the type 40 was built into the 1970s . Long enough  for the brass frame dial to get plastic gearing.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: JohnInWI on December 31, 2012, 08:10:46 PM
I think it was manufactured prior to 1955.  In 1955 GTE accquired AE and moved manufacturing from Chicago to Northlake, IL.  The newer model 40s have the Northlake location on the patent decal.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on December 31, 2012, 08:14:13 PM
Another thing to look into is when did "Chicago" change to "Chicago 7" and what is "Chicago 7", a Postal Area? I tried Googling quickly but it seems there was an incident in 1968 referred to as "The Chicago Seven" that most links lead to. If adding the "7" was something that happened on a large scale on a certai ndate, that would help narrow some date ranges for AE equipment.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: LarryInMichigan on December 31, 2012, 08:21:54 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on December 31, 2012, 08:14:13 PM
Another thing to look into is when did "Chicago" change to "Chicago 7" and wat is "Chicago 7"? A Postal Area, Congressional Area, or ??. I tried Googling quickly but it seems there was an incident in 1968 referred to as "The Chicago Seven" that most links lead to. If adding the "7" was something that happened on a large scale on a certai ndate, that would help narrow some date ranges for AE equipment.

Terry

The "7" was the postal zone code for the area in Chicago where AE was located.  In 1963, the local codes were replaced by ZIP codes, so just about anything which shows a one or two-digit postal code was printed in 1963 or earlier.  The zone which was "7" would now be 60607.

Larry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on December 31, 2012, 08:39:43 PM
Any idea when the zones started though? I see lots of old AE tags with just Chicago on them and others with Chicago 7 on them. Maybe AE just didn't bother with the 7 initially even though it existed.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: LarryInMichigan on December 31, 2012, 09:17:24 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on December 31, 2012, 08:39:43 PM
Any idea when the zones started though? I see lots of old AE tags with just Chicago on them and others with Chicago 7 on them. Maybe AE just didn't bother with the 7 initially even though it existed.

Terry

I think that the zone numbers go way back.  It is certainly conceivable that AE or others would show "Chicago" on their label without being more specific about where in Chicago it was.

Larry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on December 31, 2012, 09:49:40 PM
Yeah it may have just been a small change for AE to add the 7 rather than a change that a date could be tied to. Too bad!

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: poplar1 on December 31, 2012, 10:13:37 PM
2,272,474 is the last US Patent on the decal. What is the date for that?
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: LarryInMichigan on December 31, 2012, 10:32:55 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on December 31, 2012, 10:13:37 PM
2,272,474 is the last US Patent on the decal. What is the date for that?

It looks like the patent was granted in Feb 1942 (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2272474.pdf (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2272474.pdf)).

Larry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: JohnInWI on January 01, 2013, 07:58:04 AM
According to wikipedia, the US Postal Service introduced postal zone codes for larger US cities in 1943.  Therefore I think the phone was manufactured after 1943.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 01, 2013, 11:35:50 AM
Quote from: JohnInWI on January 01, 2013, 07:58:04 AM
According to wikipedia, the US Postal Service introduced postal zone codes for larger US cities in 1943.  Therefore I think the phone was manufactured after 1943.

Okay, that is what I was looking for. Thanks John.

This AE base tag has 11 different patents listed which I think is the most that any have. I have always meant to put together a list of the patent numbers on various AE's of this era and then look them all up. This could help narrow the manufacture date down a little further.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: poplar1 on January 01, 2013, 11:44:31 AM
2,272,474 covers the change to two plungers to replace the single plunger design of the AE 34. It was filed July 22, 1938 by Herbert F. Obergfell and issued on Feb. 10, 1942.

The diagrams also show a metal bracket for the dial. This bracket was discontinued on later AE 40s.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: LarryInMichigan on January 01, 2013, 11:46:42 AM
Just for fun, here is  the tag from the bottom of one of my AE40s.

Larry

Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: LarryInMichigan on January 01, 2013, 11:53:38 AM
Here are two more.  The one which is printed straight onto the metal is on a phone which had the "butler's handle" (long since gone).

Larry

Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: wds on January 01, 2013, 12:12:28 PM
I was looking at that patent drawing from 1938 and noticed it used the metal bracket to hold the dial - I always assumed the metal bracket was from the later models.  I have one of those that I was saving for a parts phone, but now I think I'll restore that one first.  It also has the nickel plated metal plunger bracket with the holes for the butler handle.  Of course I have not been able to find the butler handle yet.  It also has the patent label that is stamped on the bottom in red.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: LarryInMichigan on January 01, 2013, 12:15:57 PM
I have at least one AE40 broken shell with a metal dial bracket.  I would have to look for the base that came with it.  I bought the phone for parts.

Larry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 01, 2013, 12:28:07 PM
Yes it is really just the very oldest AE 40s that have the steel bracket for the dial. At least I am pretty sure of that. Cloth wiring in those sets will confirm that itbisthe older rather than the newer phones.

Something else I should mention is that in Canada (so most of my AE's) the stickers on the AE's just show a list of years that patents were issued rather than the actual patent numbers.

I always assumed that two AE 40's each with 11 patent numbers would have the same 11 patents, WRONG. I just checked two phones and only three patent numbers are the same between the two. I wrote them down and will look them up.

Nothing is ever easy with AE!

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: LarryInMichigan on January 01, 2013, 12:40:04 PM
The broken shell with the metal dial bracket does have cloth wires, and I believe that it is Canadian.

Larry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: poplar1 on January 01, 2013, 12:43:47 PM
1,689,598 filed in 1925 shows the 3-winding induction coil. I guess this must be the anti-sidetone coil. It was issued 10/30/28 so would have expired in 1945.

Happy New Year everyone. Off to eat some collard greens and black-eyed peas for good luck.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 01, 2013, 12:52:44 PM
I guess there won't be an infinite number of different stickers and stamps of patent numbers on these. The first gold sticker that Larry posted with 11 patent dates is identical to one of the two I just looked at here.

The other two that Larry posted have 9 and 6 patent numbers on them. Some of the patent numbers match the ones i have here and some don't.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 01, 2013, 12:55:21 PM
Quote from: LarryInMichigan on January 01, 2013, 12:40:04 PM
The broken shell with the metal dial bracket does have cloth wires, and I believe that it is Canadian.

Does it have patent numbers on the base? If it is Canadian it will probably just have years instead of patent numbers listed.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: wds on January 01, 2013, 01:08:38 PM
Here's a picture of the inside of my phone.  Now I remember why it's a parts phone - it's missing the metal tap for the base plate screw.  Top of picture.  Notice this one has a third hole for the base plate screw on the side.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 01, 2013, 01:32:48 PM
Dave:

Something tells me that I have seen a similar dial bracket in a phone with no brass insert for the front base screw. I was wondering if the screw went through there and threaded into the back of the dial bracket?

That third hole on the side is for a second capacitor which is sometimes hung on that screw. Most often it was used when the capacitor on the baseplate was a single where as the one in your picture likely has the 2 in 1 capacitor on the base (4 wires connected to it).

This may have been to do with different frequency ringers needing different ringer capacitors.

I see chrome bands on that parts phones handset. You must have another AE that can make use of them!

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: LarryInMichigan on January 01, 2013, 01:44:13 PM
I don't know where the base from the Canadian AE40 is at the moment.  I took a look at the shell though, and it also has the extra hole on the side.  The hole in the front has a threaded brass piece which screws into the dial bracket.  I unscrewed it and took a picture of it. 

Larry

Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 01, 2013, 01:50:37 PM
That's right! Now I remember. That thing screws into the dial bracket holding it firmly in place and then the base screws into it. Clever except it is another part to go missing! No wonder someone at AE said "hey, why don't we just mold in bakelite tabs to mount the dial to?

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: HowardPgh on January 01, 2013, 01:59:04 PM
The version of the 40 with the metal dial bracket seems to be more delicate in the front.  I had a couple of them with a hairline crack right on the front middle where the hole for the screw in bushing goes.
Howard
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: wds on January 01, 2013, 02:20:56 PM
That's the piece I'm missing!  Now to find one...........   And yes, I'm saving those chrome bands.  Now that I've decided to restore this one, I'll probably just keep them on this phone.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: LarryInMichigan on January 01, 2013, 02:26:47 PM
I looked a bit more.  The broken shell with the metal dial bracket is not the Canadian one.  The Canadian one has the dial mount molded into the bakelite, and the bottom plate is plain aluminum with nothing printed on it.

Larry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 01, 2013, 04:34:30 PM
Do you think it is actually Aluminum larry? I dont think that I have seen an aluminum AE40 base but silver colored steel is quite normal. Find a magnet!

Someone must have a smashed 40 housing with the metal dial brack to swipe that screw thing for the front base screw. I'll keep my eyes open around here.

If anyone else has pictures of the details of the stickers (and inked stamp patent info whether red or black ink) on the bottom of AE 40's post them here. I would like to see how many variations there are in patent mnumbers and then look them all up in my on going efforts to find a way to narrow the manufacture date of AE 40's and other models.

I will probably move most of this part of the discussion into the AE Base Code Survey topic.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: wds on January 01, 2013, 05:08:44 PM
patent numbers - kind of hard to read.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 01, 2013, 05:54:23 PM
Since the groups of patent #'s seem to be following a pattern on these, a couple that are hard t oread can easily be figured out by comparing to others. No "7" after Chicago on that one and it has the older group of 11 patents tha tmostly begin with ones.

Thanks for the input wds.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: LarryInMichigan on January 01, 2013, 06:03:45 PM
QuoteDo you think it is actually Aluminum larry? I dont think that I have seen an aluminum AE40 base but silver colored steel is quite normal. Find a magnet!
It sure looks like aluminum (or is that aluminium?) to me.  It does not attract a magnet.

QuoteSomeone must have a smashed 40 housing with the metal dial brack to swipe that screw thing for the front base screw. I'll keep my eyes open around here.
I am sending wds the "screw thing" from my broken shell.

Larry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 01, 2013, 06:09:18 PM
Quote from: JohnInWI on December 31, 2012, 08:10:46 PM
I think it was manufactured prior to 1955.  In 1955 GTE accquired AE and moved manufacturing from Chicago to Northlake, IL.  The newer model 40s have the Northlake location on the patent decal.

John:

Do you have any with Northlake illinois on them? I am not sure if I have seen 40's or 50's with Northlake on the stickers or not. AE80's and 90's do but nmot certain about 40's and 50's. I don't see too many tha tare made in USA though since I am in Canada. If so, that would be an excellent way to determine the AE40's made from about 1955 an on.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 01, 2013, 06:15:08 PM
Quote from: LarryInMichigan on January 01, 2013, 06:03:45 PM
It sure looks like aluminum (or is that aluminium?) to me.  It does not attract a magnet.

Maybe it is Aluminum. (I think there are two ways of spelling and saying Aluminum / Aluminium). Could it be brass that has been tin plated or maybe chromed but not shiney chrome...Industrical Chrome (?)

Quote from: LarryInMichigan on January 01, 2013, 06:03:45 PM
I am sending wds the "screw thing" from my broken shell.
Larry

I hadn't put two and two together there...honest! I didn't realise that yours was smashed though you probably did say that. So wds is moving into the AE field...welcome wds!

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: LarryInMichigan on January 01, 2013, 06:29:09 PM
The proper name of the metal is Aluminium, but it was misspelled many years ago, and the misspelled name took hold in the USA.  The Canadians probably came for the ride on this one.

The base really looks and feels like aluminum to me.  Brass would be heavier.  I am pretty sure that this is the Canadian one.  I bought it for $5 or so from an ebay seller in Milwaukee, WI who was offering it for parts.  I salvaged the dial and SL ringer.  I don't remember how the handset was.  I have alot of type 41 handsets in poor condition.

Larry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 01, 2013, 06:46:12 PM
And we make LOTS of aluminum here in BC so you can call it whatever you want, just don't stop buying it from us!

And speaking of going for a ride, I couldn't decide about merging this into the AECo base code survey so I've moved it to "Technical Stuff" and made it a companion topic to the AECo base & Patent # Survey. It would be like putting a man on the moon to get a few easy ways to roughly determine the manufacture date of these AE phones so I hope to keep working at it.

So far we have AE40's made from:

Prior to 1943 (approximately) should have "Automatic Electric Company Chicago" on the base label.
1943 (approximately) and on should have "Automatic Electric Company Chicago 7" on the base label.
August 15, 1957 and on should have Northlake Illinois rather than Chicago 7 on the base label.

Terry


Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: wds on January 01, 2013, 07:07:00 PM
Thanks to Larry now I can finish this phone up.  And Terry, I actually have several AE 40 phones, including a nice model 47, but it seems like every one of them has something wrong with it.  Here's a picture of my first 40 - beautiful case, nicest ringer sound, and I use it on my desk in the basement.  It did not have the carry handle, nor does it have the holes for the butler handle.  Instead, someone installed a rod for a carry handle.  I've seen several of these phones with the same rod - must have been an aftermarket add-on.  With that screw that Larry is sending I can finally have one completely original 40.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: wds on January 01, 2013, 07:10:10 PM
And by the way, the base with the red printing on the bottom is not magnetic either, and does not seem to be brass.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 01, 2013, 08:06:55 PM
I either recall a discussion here about "the Rod" or maybe saw one on ebaY? If you have seen several of them, I bet it was a refurbisher or a certain Telco that did that. The earliest AE 40's had no carry bar or buttler handle. The blocks at the pliungers had no holes for the butler handle. Then the holes for Butler Handle and then finally the solid carry bar.

How did they get the rod in there? Drilled right through one side and then only partially through the other side? Did they fill the hole that went all the way through?

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: wds on January 01, 2013, 08:11:31 PM
I've always threatened to remove the rod, but it would still have the holes.  It looks like the rod only has threads on one end, so they drilled all the way through the first hole, then threaded into the other side.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: JohnInWI on January 01, 2013, 08:17:46 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on January 01, 2013, 06:09:18 PM
Quote from: JohnInWI on December 31, 2012, 08:10:46 PM
I think it was manufactured prior to 1955.  In 1955 GTE accquired AE and moved manufacturing from Chicago to Northlake, IL.  The newer model 40s have the Northlake location on the patent decal.

John:

Do you have any with Northlake illinois on them? I am not sure if I have seen 40's or 50's with Northlake on the stickers or not. AE80's and 90's do but nmot certain about 40's and 50's. I don't see too many tha tare made in USA though since I am in Canada. If so, that would be an excellent way to determine the AE40's made from about 1955 an on.

Terry

Terry:

I do have 2 Navy "Type A" AE 40s with the Northlake decal on them.  As someone had mentioned, AE made these for the Navy into the 1970s.

-John
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on January 01, 2013, 08:28:57 PM
Quote from: JohnInWI on January 01, 2013, 08:17:46 PM
Terry:

I do have 2 Navy "Type A" AE 40s with the Northlake decal on them.  As someone had mentioned, AE made these for the Navy into the 1970s.

-John

Oh Okay, that could stand to reason then if that type of phone was made much longer than the others. We will see if anyone else finds one with Northlake on the sticker. I would think that by the time the new plant at Northlake was built, it was probably set up to go crazy building the new AE 80's and 40's would have really been few and far between by then.

Quote from: wds on January 01, 2013, 07:10:10 PM
And by the way, the base with the red printing on the bottom is not magnetic either, and does not seem to be brass.

I went and found a magnet and was shocked to find that in many cases what I thought was a steel bottom also isn't interested in my magnet! If the bottom is silver and looks like steel, it isn't. Any of my base plates that have even a hint of the Gold Anodizing" on them are made of steel.

That is interesting how they did "the rod". I would have thought that the carry bar would have been out and available quite early on in production and it would be a lot easier to swap out the blocks for the bar rather than doing "the rod".

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: Babybearjs on February 19, 2013, 01:06:55 AM
Terry, interesting discussion. reminds me of when I got my first AE87. I wanted to register it with Pac Bell back in the day when you had to register extention phones with there FCC Reg. No. which AE never included on any of there phones... W.E. didnt either until the breakup. My AE 40, and 50 both don't have any date codes, but AE finally got them on the 87A phones... in the 60's. all I know is my AE 40, and 50 are from the 1940's... thats enough for me.
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: Contempra on March 13, 2013, 01:04:34 PM
Quote from: wds on January 01, 2013, 07:07:00 PM
Thanks to Larry now I can finish this phone up.  And Terry, I actually have several AE 40 phones, including a nice model 47, but it seems like every one of them has something wrong with it.  Here's a picture of my first 40 - beautiful case, nicest ringer sound, and I use it on my desk in the basement.  It did not have the carry handle, nor does it have the holes for the butler handle.  Instead, someone installed a rod for a carry handle.  I've seen several of these phones with the same rod - must have been an aftermarket add-on.  With that screw that Larry is sending I can finally have one completely original 40.

Beautyful Telephone  anyway. :)
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: HowardPgh on March 13, 2013, 03:13:28 PM
Did Automatic Electric do their own Bakelite molding process?
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on March 13, 2013, 07:29:24 PM
I have no idea. I have seen bakelite bodies that seemed to have a little GE logo molded inside which made me wonder if they were molded by by GE or if GE just had something to do with the process or equipment used.

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: LarryInMichigan on March 14, 2013, 11:41:19 AM
GE is big in the plastics business.  They have a big office building about 4 1/2 miles from here.  I wouldn't be surprised if they made molded shells for phones.  I have many bakelite and possibly Plaskon clocks with "Chicago Molded Products" molded into the insides of the cases.  I think that I have seen the same name inside of bakelite Leich phone shells.

Larry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: rdelius on March 14, 2013, 12:08:04 PM
I think that  I saw GE on the AE-Philips sets from Canada  but not on US sets. I think AE has better quality Bakelite than other sets
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: DavePEI on March 14, 2013, 12:59:45 PM
Quote from: rdelius on March 14, 2013, 12:08:04 PM
I think that  I saw GE on the AE-Philips sets from Canada  but not on US sets. I think AE has better quality Bakelite than other sets
Yet, when I was a kid, I saw cases being molded at the GTE/AE plant in Brockville one time I visited.

Now, it is possible that Phillips Electrical Works had someone else mold their cases before the new plant opened. I couldn't say for sure, as I was only two years old when the new Strowger Blvd. plant opened and the Electrical Works plant changed over to Phillips Wire and Cables.

Dave
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: AE_Collector on March 14, 2013, 01:20:02 PM
Yeah that would make sense. When they built the new AE plant at Brockville maybe they included the equipment to mold their own cases rather than buying from GE.

Now if you just had " a couple of cases" of spare cases......

Terry
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: DavePEI on March 14, 2013, 01:57:05 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on March 14, 2013, 01:20:02 PM
Yeah that would make sense. When they built the new AE plant at Brockville maybe they included the equipment to mold their own cases rather than buying from GE.

Now if you just had " a couple of cases" of spare cases......

Terry
Could be. Wish I did have a few cases of NOS AE40, 80, and 34 cases!

Dave
Title: Re: AECo Bakelite Era Phones - Manufacture Date Discussions
Post by: unbeldi on August 17, 2015, 07:08:43 PM
Here is the decal on the bottom of a Northlake AE40 made in October 1958, the date is right next to the decal.

See also: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=14784.0