German ZB SA 24 found

[countryman]

I found a ZB SA 24 on eBay classifieds.
After the ZB SA 11 and 19 this was the third model designed for CB automatic by Siemens & Halske in cooperation with RTV (Reichstelegraphenverwaltung, a department of the state Post). Zentralbatterie Selbstanschluss means just this, CB automatic (literally "self connecting"). The model was not only produced by Siemens but also by many contractors. This specimen was made by Wilhelm Dauernheim in Berlin, one of the least known and most irrelevant makers  Without the help of a German forum it would have been hard to find out what the "WD" logo stands for. Dauernheim also produced headphones and radio equipment in smaller numbers  but ceased to exist in the late 1920ies. There may be a connection to the later "Blaupunkt" brand of radios, though.
I only found one other "WD" phone on the web, it's in Ukraine.

The phone has been painted in red and white. I started stripping the bottom plate but the result was a bit so-so. The paint came off well but rust showed up. I'll see what the shell does, but did not yet have the time to disassemble the innards. These seem to be original - The capacitor is dated 1925, made by Zwietusch, another manufacturer in Berlin. Zwietusch used to be a major competitor of Siemens, controlled by Western Electric before WW I, but was eventually taken over by Siemens after an agreement. It is normal that parts supplied by S&H or it's subdivisions were assembled by contractors like WD.
The dial is a type N24 made by Carl Lorenz, also of Berlin. C. Lorenz went up in ITT much later. I assume that the dial also is original to the phone.
The handset is fair enough, but not correct on this phone. It's an earlier model, maybe from a ZB SA 19 or more likely a contemporary LB phone (it has a LB transmitter inside). These handsets with the typical German angled cone are often seen on '24 phones and look impressive, but will invariably bang against the shell when used. This has happened here, chipping the breakable celluloid cone. There are no reproductions available, so that even damaged ones like this are acceptable. Often enough the cone is missing. The '24 handsets are similar but originally came with a hemispherical metal mouthpiece (also referred to as "pepper caster" or hygiene mouthpiece).

A nice find, and a lot of work to be done...

[countryman]

Some more pics. Opening a '24 is tricky, the bolt on the back must be turned 1/4 turn with a special tool or needle-nosed pliers, then pulled out. It holds down the cradle with a stack of leaf springs. After the cradle assembly is pulled out, the shell can be lifted up. Here it was stuck, glued on by the oil paint...
I'm looking for suggestions, should I leave this phone alone, apart from cleaning the dial and polishing the nickel parts? Or strip the white and red paint off at the risk of seeing more rust? Sand down to the steel and repaint?

[Jack Ryan]

I've seen a lot of ZB SA 24s with the wrong handset - I don't know why so many end up like that.

In addition to the ZB SA 24s with the wrong trumpeted handset, I am told there are ZB SA 24s with a high cradle that are correct with a trumpeted handset. I think it was Jörg Sannwald who told me this. I have seen a number of ZB SA 24s with high cradles and trumpeted handsets - too many to be just mismatches.

Have you come across these?

I assume that there wasn't a telephone company that painted phones that colour so I think your phone is a candidate for stripping and refinishing. The rust will come through eventually anyway so you might as well fix it properly. You can probably age the refinished paintwork so that you don't end up with a telephone that you can only look at while wearing sunglasses.

On tools:
I would like to find a set of the tools used to turn the case retainer at the back of the phone. The same sort of tool is used for the handset and many other parts. What sort of specialist tool shop would carry those?

Regards
Jack

[countryman]

Thanks for your opinion on the paint job Jack. That is the direction I am leaning to... the red/creme paint is brushed on and for sure not factory.
It seems possible that some manufacturers used the taller cradle from the ZB SA 19 - the base looks identical.

Edit to add: The "WD" ZB SA 24 of the ukrainian guy seems to have this taller cradle and the correct type 24 handset - but with a trumpet mouthpiece minus trumpet (broken off). Many combinations seem to appear. Could have happened during a looong life, could be variations from factory. That phone has a funny finger wheel as well, I've never seen anything like that...

Phone techs of the time would have a dedicated tool for the retainer. Today a universal "face spanner" would do, in my case needle nose pliers worked. Lock ring piers also can be used.

[Jack Ryan]

That phone has a funny finger wheel as well, I've never seen anything like that...

I don't remember seeing that either. Have you asked on the forum at wasser.de?

Phone techs of the time would have a dedicated tool for the retainer. Today a universal "face spanner" would do, in my case needle nose pliers worked. Lock ring piers also can be used.

I haven't had any luck with face or pin spanners - the pins are too big or too far apart. Needle nose and circlip pliers also tend to be too big and slip eventually making a mess of the head. I'd like a precision set but I haven't seen one that fits the bill.

Regards
Jack

[countryman]

I asked over there but it seems to be unknown. Could be a homemade design to replace missing parts.

I now found the predecessor ZB SA 19 which is somewhat rare. This one has a plate "Gesellschaft für automatische Telephonie", a subdivision of Fuld, later TN. The cradle design confirms that, and the handset might be the correct one this time (minus the cord). I'm excited what will arrive... and how the stripping result will come out this time.

The before mentioned '24 came out rusty, I repainted it already. I hope to present it with the '19 soon!

[countryman]

The phone arrived and is a disappointment - almost.
In fact it is not an "ordinary phone co." ZBSA 19, but a Fuld "Model 19" for private systems. The dial is an early Fuld "Type TA-3". I'll need to investigate more into that. Not only the cradle of these Fuld models is different, the innards are different, too. Downside is, these are missing  A previous owner not only painted the phone, but also put in the PCB of a FeTap 611 (1970ies model). Also the ringer and the nice exterior gongs are missing. That will be next to impossible to replace.
What I have is a Fuld Model 19 shell with a nice plate, a working and rare dial most likely original to this shell and the wreck of a handset. The original elements and other parts are missing, the receiver cap was replaced also by a 70ies plastic part. But it has that cover of the terminals that is often missing on those handsets...

Opinions please: Should I part it out and sell the valuable pieces, like the dial and the terminal cover? That probably would bring significantly more than the 30€ I paid for the entire pile.
And then I still have a nice curled cord for Siemens&Halske plastic phones and more gaskets for sewer pipes than I ever wanted 

Or restore the exterior, transplant a half-way suitable ringer or only the gongs with a roughly fitting diameter and call it a phone, hoping the wonder might happen and I find the terminals, correct ringer etc. later?

[Jack Ryan]

Those are hard questions to answer. For me, it would be simple - there is absolutely no chance of me finding those parts here and a large proportion of German sellers won't ship internationally and won't use PayPal.

I would not make a faux telephone. If there is no chance of you finding the parts you need you might offer them for trade or sell them. Sometimes a trade will get you some parts you desperately need while giving someone else the parts they desperately need - win-win.

I think you are well placed not to make a loss and you might, through a trade, be much better off.

If you made a faux telephone you would regret it every day when you looked at it and would eventually avert your eyes or buy one of those enclosures the Americans used to have to hide their ugly candlestick telephones in.

(These enclosures: https://www.ebay.com/itm/164043896412)

Good luck with your dilemma.

Regards
Jack

[countryman]

A hide-a-phone. Fantastic! 
I had not thought of the trade-in idea... reason enough to keep the original parts, though incomplete.

I'm still looking for info on that presumed early Fuld "Type TA-3" dial.

[FABphones]

Screenshot from link above:

[countryman]

Both ZB SA phones have undergone a paint stripping cure now. The first phone I bought, the '24, came out rusty and was repainted. With a little luck I'll soon have a correct handset for it.

On the second one, the model '19, the original paint could be salvaged. I also went ahead and added the missing innards, or completed the phone using more modern parts. No need to hide it though I guess?
Who can name the donor phone of the ringer? A free beer for the right answer 

[Doug Rose]

thanks for posting these pics, I have had mine forever and could not find any information about it. It is such a cool looking phone....Doug

[countryman]

That one is in very nice and original condition Doug!

[Doug Rose]

Thanks Countryman...so mine is ZB SA 24?  Is ZB SA the manufacturer? Is '24 the year it was made or the model number? Is his a Fuld?  I can dream.  I do appreciate the info....Doug

[countryman]

ZB SA was short for Zentral Batterie Selbstanschluss - central battery automatic. 24 or 19 are the model years (of introduction). These models were made for years, also after successors appeared.
These designs were elaborated by the German Post (RTV = Reichs-Telegraphen-Verwaltung, a subdivision of the Post) and Siemens&Halske. They were built by S&H and also by several subcontractors and licensees. Usually there are manufacturer signs on a piece of cardboard in the base.
Fuld and it's affiliated companies were no suppliers for "official" Post/RTV phones but sold and rented out private systems. The "model 19" I presented is a Fuld phone (The plate indicates one of the many Fuld affiliated companies). It's design is related to the Siemens/RTV version but in detail it's independent. The C.... number on the handset is typical for Fuld handsets, as well as the black transmitter cap (now brass, because the original black here did not withstand the paint stripper...)
Harry Fuld (†1932) was jewish, hence his company had to face reprisal from the Nazis after '33. The Fuld family was expropriated and the company renamed (TN was successful post-war, then went up in Tenovis and Avaya). His son Peter Harry fled to Great Britain and Canada where he faced several difficulties. 1951 he got his TN company shares back but did not join the active management. He died in 1962 and donated his inheritance to a charity trust that is still active.