Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Switching => General Switching Discussions => Topic started by: briantroutman on February 13, 2018, 02:42:35 PM

Title: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: briantroutman on February 13, 2018, 02:42:35 PM
Hello-

I'm new to Classic Rotary Phones—both the website and the hobby. But I've long been interested in old phones, and I'm particularly fascinated by the electromechanical switching systems that were disappearing in my area just as I first began using telephones as a young child in the late '80s.

Perhaps because now even the public copper phone network itself is starting to disappear—and because I have a young child of my own and would like to introduce her to some of the old technologies that I grew up with—I'd like to set up a network of rotary phones in my own home. Again, I'm new to this, and admittedly my knowledge is limited, so perhaps it would help if I broke my "wish list" into tiers based on priority, and we can discuss what would be technically, financially, and practically feasible.

Tier 1 - Basic voice connection
At a very base level, I'd like to have two WE-500-type rotary phones that I can wire together and use to talk from one to the other (like a two-way intercom). I understand this is fairly easy to do with wiring, a lantern battery, and a resistor. If possible, it would be preferable to supply the necessary DC talking current from household power so that I'm not constantly consuming batteries.

Tier 2 - Ringing
Another fairly base wish list item would be the ability to ring one phone from the other (even if this meant needing to press a separate doorbell-like "ring" button in order to do so). From my preliminary research, it seems the challenge would be generating the 90v/20Hz AC required to power the bell. I've encountered widely differing opinions on whether using straight 110v/60Hz current is or is not dangerous for either the phones or the users.

Tier 3 - "Pseudo" switching
At the next level, it would be very nice to be able to dial Phone B from Phone A—even if it was as simple as dialing a single digit to establish a connection between the two.

Some years ago, I saw a demonstration from a Canadian science program that gave me my first bit of education on how phones and mechanical switching work. (Here's a link to that clip: https://youtu.be/uHGmckJMcAc (https://youtu.be/uHGmckJMcAc)). In that video, the host has some kind of rotary stepping switch wired into the circuit that he describes as being "part of an old jukebox". The arm is parked when the phone is on-hook, moves one position for each pulse, then parks as soon as the phone is hung up. Perhaps I'm oversimplifying, but if I had such a switch and wired Phone B into the seventh contact, for example, wouldn't it be possible to pick up Phone A, dial 7, then speak to Phone B? Of course this wouldn't automatically generate a ring, and there would be no dial tone—and I assume it would only be possible to dial from A to B...but not the reverse.

Tier 4 - "Real" switching/expansion
Of course my ultimate desire would be to have everything—dial tone, unique numbers for Phones A and B, the ability to dial between phones, and the option to eventually add a few other phones and run wires through the house so that I could, say, call the kitchen from the garage. I don't anticipate that connecting my personal phone network to the PSTN will ever be a major consideration.

Perhaps the easiest and cleanest solution that would give me all wish list items at once would be to get some kind of a small, older PBX system (I'm assuming circa 1980s-'90s) and use it to connect rotary handsets. I have to say, though, that the idea of using a completely electronic PBX does take some of the allure out the proposition. And I've also seen videos of setups where rotary phones are connected in an internal network via a PBX, and after the rotary phone is used to dial the other phone's extension digits, the PBX audibly repeats the dialing digits as DTMF tones. That's something else I wouldn't prefer to have, but if the alternatives would be impossibly difficult to set up or maintain—or very expensive—a PBX might be the best overall option.

I've also seen some videos of older (I'm assuming '50s-'60s) mechanical PAX systems in operation, and they might be more along the lines of what I had in mind, although I wonder if such a system would be virtually impossible to find, particularly costly, or very difficult to keep running. Another consideration is space; I'm in an apartment currently (as my wife and I consider purchase options in our town), so a refrigerator-sized unit wouldn't be practical in the short term. I'll likely purchasing a detached home with a basement in a few years, so accommodating larger switching equipment and running wires would be possible later on.

I look forward to your input and advice! Many thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: Babybearjs on February 13, 2018, 03:03:40 PM
it can get to be quite time consuming and takes a lot of reading and research.... I have a small 1A1 system with a 9 station intercom... works for me... go to the TCI Library at www.telephonecollectors.info and start there. this forum can help also... plenty of old timers who love to play with phones....(like kids in a candy store....) building a system from the ground up takes a lot of wiring and patients... plus plenty of time and money.... ask any questions and we'll try to answer them as best as possible....
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: AE_Collector on February 13, 2018, 03:31:37 PM
This is a repeat but here goes anyway:

Forget compact and modern, go BIG and get a REAL PABX.

Might I suggest this Hitachi GTX400 Crossbar PBX. This one will run 400 of your favorite rotary phones and should support 100 trunks just incase you have lots of traffic. Your existing electrical service in your house should handle it but you may have to limit use of things like the clothes dryer, stove and heating while you are playing with your phones..

The best news...I know where this one is and it is ready to be picked up and moved to your home!

Here's the link where I posted this previously:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2124.msg34273#msg34273

Terry
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: Babybearjs on February 13, 2018, 03:41:34 PM
Boy Terry..... you sure do like a lot of telephone! have you ever had to wire one of those?
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: AE_Collector on February 13, 2018, 03:44:26 PM
They were sort of modular...boxes and boxes of plug ended cables. I took out way more than I ever worked on though I recall adding a 100 Station line frame to an existing system once. All back in the 70's. I know where this one is abandoned near here but can't even think about doing anything about it!

I would sure like to hear one processing calls again though!

Terry
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: HarrySmith on February 13, 2018, 03:51:45 PM
OK, Terry, you talked me into it. Just drop it off here in Coral Springs next time you are down!
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: AE_Collector on February 13, 2018, 03:56:02 PM
I'll watch for the next Vancouver to Fort Lauderdale Panama Canal Cruise and take it onboard in my luggage. You've got to pick up at Port Everglades. Bring a fork lift!

Brian is probably contacting Dennis to cancel his CRPF membership right now!

Terry
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: Owain on February 13, 2018, 04:42:46 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on February 13, 2018, 02:42:35 PM
Tier 1 - Basic voice connectionIf possible, it would be preferable to supply the necessary DC talking current from household power so that I’m not constantly consuming batteries.

The battery is usually on an open circuit when the phones are on-hook, so current is only used while speaking. This is how intercom phones were installed before mains power and rectifiers became widespread/affordable.

Quote from: briantroutman on February 13, 2018, 02:42:35 PM
Tier 2 - Ringing
Another fairly base wish list item would be the ability to ring one phone from the other (even if this meant needing to press a separate doorbell-like “ring” button in order to do so). From my preliminary research, it seems the challenge would be generating the 90v/20Hz AC required to power the bell. I’ve encountered widely differing opinions on whether using straight 110v/60Hz current is or is not dangerous for either the phones or the users.

Using mains current to ring bells is unwise - phones are not built to the same insulation standards (particularly old ones) and you mention 'a child'. If you want to ring magneto bells use (a) a transformer (b) a transistorised ringing generator (can run from the talk battery) (c) a magneto or (d) replace with DC bells/buzzers.

A line simulator will provide talk battery and ringing voltage eg
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=6141.0

Quote from: briantroutman on February 13, 2018, 02:42:35 PM
Tier 3 - “Pseudo” switching
At the next level, it would be very nice to be able to dial Phone B from Phone A—even if it was as simple as dialing a single digit to establish a connection between the two.

You might be able to find a line simulator that supports this, but if you want an electromechanical one you basically have to start from scratch with obsolete and fairly uncommon parts. However there have been discussions here about building small exchanges and someone was updating the 10-line Telephone Exchange Using 22 Relays
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=6218.0

Quote from: briantroutman on February 13, 2018, 02:42:35 PM
Tier 4 - “Real” switching/expansionPerhaps the easiest and cleanest solution that would give me all wish list items at once would be to get some kind of a small, older PBX system (I’m assuming circa 1980s-’90s) and use it to connect rotary handsets.

It would be, and for practicality is what most people here probably use as their 'central' home exchange, with manual or electromechanical switches piggybacked on it.
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: briantroutman on February 13, 2018, 04:49:01 PM
Thanks for the responses. I know that whenever you join in with a group (online or in real life), there's a certain amount of getting up-to-speed with the regulars, so I expect a bit of ribbing and in-jokes. In other words, don't count me out of the forum just yet!

Quote from: Babybearjs on February 13, 2018, 03:03:40 PM
I have a small 1A1 system with a 9 station intercom... go to the TCI Library at www.telephonecollectors.info and start there...

Thanks for the suggestion and link. I'm reading the 1A1 system description at the TCI library right now. It seems like the 1A1 or 1A2 key systems might perform the functions I'm looking for, and I'll follow up with questions I have after reading. But I can post a few that have occurred to me thus far...

It appears that the key systems' equipment is designed to work together—including system-compatible phones. So instead of using a model 500 desk set, I would have to use something like a 565 with five line selector buttons and a hold button—is that correct? Or given the fact that I don't need to access multiple lines or use a hold feature, is it possible to somehow adapt a single-line phone to work with a key system?

From the system description, it appears I'd be using what they refer to as the "Dial Selective Intercommunicating" feature to call between phones. I notice that in reference to an audible incoming call signal, it says: "The audible signal is operated once for a period of about 2 seconds." So this is descriptive of the kind of ring I would hear?

Do any of the key systems produce dial tone? I can't find a mention of it in the system description. It's not necessarily a deal-breaker, but I wondered.

And finally, other than trying to get into old office buildings and find disused equipment in phone closets, do you have any suggestions of where I might look for key system equipment or if there are going rates for what they cost? I notice that there's an annual phone collectors' meet not far from me in Lancaster, PA (I'm in the Philadelphia area)—might this be a good place to look?




Quote from: Owain on February 13, 2018, 04:42:46 PM

Edited to add: Thanks, Owain, for your detailed response—which just came through as I was typing this. I'm running out of time at the moment but will read thoroughly and respond as soon as I can.
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: HarrySmith on February 13, 2018, 06:21:22 PM
Welcome to the forum. Sorry about the jokes, just me & Terry being stupid or me being stupid and Terry just responding. You will find a lot of great people here with tons of knowledge & experience who love to help. A lot of us use a Panasonic PBX for our rotary phones. I am not an expert on any of the systems but I believe it will do what you want. They come up on eBay often. There is even a topic here where members post sightings of them for sale. We have a few switchers here that I am sure will chime in. Check out member weco355aman, he has several working systems you will not believe! Here is his website: http://www.strowgercentraloffice.com
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: briantroutman on February 13, 2018, 07:32:57 PM
Thanks, Owain! Lots of threads to look through and points to consider.

Quote from: Owain on February 13, 2018, 04:42:46 PM
A line simulator will provide talk battery and ringing voltage eg
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=6141.0

Thanks for the link—and the "lift receiver A to ring phone B" arrangement mentioned in the thread sounds interesting.

Quote from: Owain on February 13, 2018, 04:42:46 PM
However there have been discussions here about building small exchanges and someone was updating the 10-line Telephone Exchange Using 22 Relays
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=6218.0

Building it would involve quite a considerable learning curve, but the 10-line exchange seems to be exactly what I had in mind. Fortunately, my dad has a decent amount of electronics experience from his time working on radar units in the USAF in the '60s, and this could possibly make a good father/son project.

Quote from: HarrySmith on February 13, 2018, 06:21:22 PM
Welcome to the forum. Sorry about the jokes...

That's quite alright...I'm just glad to have a few helping hands as I try to sift through my options. Thanks for responding!

Quote from: HarrySmith on February 13, 2018, 06:21:22 PM
A lot of us use a Panasonic PBX for our rotary phones.

That might end up being the route I decide to take. Provided that my end goal would be to connect less than ten phones with the least possible amount of "intruding modernity"—such as the PBX repeating my rotary dialing digits as DTMF tones—do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions of units I should consider?

Admittedly, I can see how a modern PBX might open up some interesting possibilities—such as configuring longer numbers for the extensions or perhaps allowing me to create recorded call intercept messages. (I'm just guessing—I don't know if these are features I should expect or not.)

Quote from: HarrySmith on February 13, 2018, 06:21:22 PM
Check out member weco355aman, he has several working systems you will not believe! Here is his website: http://www.strowgercentraloffice.com

Terrific photo (and equipment) collection! If he ever hosts a tour, sign me up!
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: AE_Collector on February 13, 2018, 08:38:37 PM
Quote from: HarrySmith on February 13, 2018, 06:21:22 PM
Welcome to the forum. Sorry about the jokes, just me & Terry being stupid ....

I do Stupid well!

Yes I think for someone just wanting to get a few phones working, the Panasonic systems make it easy and inexpensive.

Terry
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: Greg G. on February 13, 2018, 09:20:02 PM
Brian -

Ditto what Terry said.  Make it easy on yourself and look for a Panasonic PBX.  They can be had for not a lot of money.  It will do at least the first couple of tiers you mentioned.  You can either dial the extension or dial an outside line, no wiring or batteries needed, just a line cord with an RJ11.  Most you would have to do is string some line cords through your house if the extensions you want to dial are in other rooms.  If you want to get fancy, they can be programmed with a proprietary Easa-Phone.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/282830947858? 

I mostly use mine to test phones I've been working on.  If you want to drive your family nuts, you can hook up several phones and they ring in cascading order on incoming calls. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILUvbF62yB4

Rigging magneto sets is another matter altogether.
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: Weco355aman on February 14, 2018, 01:25:55 AM
Youtube video of my SXS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivQ7b3dtIzI
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: briantroutman on February 14, 2018, 12:19:02 PM
Thanks for the additional responses, Terry and Brinybay! If nothing else, going the Panasonic PBX route would be a fairly easy and fast way to get started—and compact, too. And if I decide to do something more ambitious in the future (like build my own mechanical switch or buy a heavier piece of old mechanical switching equipment), I'd be able to keep whatever rotary phones I'd acquired...and perhaps even sell the PBX on to someone else if I no longer needed it.

Quote from: Brinybay on February 13, 2018, 09:20:02 PM
If you want to get fancy, they can be programmed with a proprietary Easa-Phone.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/282830947858?

I wanted to ask because I've seen the "Easa-Phone" name used in various eBay ads and elsewhere to refer to either the PBX, the companion Panasonic phones, or the entire system. But I assume you're referring to the companion phone—that the desk set can be used to program some of the PBX functions, right?

Based on the eBay link you provided as well as many other phone collector demonstration videos I've seen, it seems like the Panasonic model 308 PBX is a popular choice. Are there any things to watch out for—such as components that tend to go bad? Or model revisions that make some 308s better than others?

Quote from: Brinybay on February 13, 2018, 09:20:02 PM
If you want to drive your family nuts, you can hook up several phones and they ring in cascading order on incoming calls. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILUvbF62yB4
Funny! Yes, that would be a fun way to drive my wife, in particular, nuts.

Quote from: Brinybay on February 13, 2018, 09:20:02 PM
Rigging magneto sets is another matter altogether.

You're referring to older phones with a crank that was used to signal the central office, correct? I don't anticipate that I'd be getting into equipment of that vintage, so I should be OK on that count. I had planned on using primarily 500-series type phones because I thought they'd offer the best overall combination of durability, availability, and price. But if I'm incorrect, by all means, set me straight.

Quote from: Weco355aman on February 14, 2018, 01:25:55 AM
Youtube video of my SXS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivQ7b3dtIzI

Terrific video! I'm always fascinated by elements like the cam used in the interruptor to generate the cadences of ringing signals, busy signals, and reorder tones. It's that interface between the mechanical and electrical worlds that intrigues me. Honestly, I think my ultimate (and perhaps impossible) goal would be to have my own step-by-step switch in the basement.
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: AE_Collector on February 14, 2018, 12:28:56 PM
Panasonic used the term Easaphone for many things Phone related for many years. I recall little speakerphone adjuncts that we're Panasonic Easaphone.

The PBX you will find in 8 Station and 16 Station versions. And it is quite easy to use the system in default mode without the need to do any programming through a proprietary Panasonic digital phone. But some woukd want to play with its abilities more so woukd acquire the phone as well.

I have an 8 Station PBX around here that I've never used and I think I may have the correct digital phone for it as well. One day I will see that it works and sell it. Meanwhile they are available on eBay quite often.

Terry
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: Greg G. on February 14, 2018, 03:03:02 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on February 14, 2018, 12:19:02 PM
Thanks for the additional responses, Terry and Brinybay!

I wanted to ask because I've seen the "Easa-Phone" name used in various eBay ads and elsewhere to refer to either the PBX, the companion Panasonic phones, or the entire system. But I assume you're referring to the companion phone—that the desk set can be used to program some of the PBX functions, right?

Yes, there is a separate desk set that's used to program it.  I have one, but I've never needed or wanted anything but the default program.  You can use the PBX by itself if the phone isn't included.

Quote from: briantroutman on February 14, 2018, 12:19:02 PM
Based on the eBay link you provided as well as many other phone collector demonstration videos I've seen, it seems like the Panasonic model 308 PBX is a popular choice. Are there any things to watch out for—such as components that tend to go bad? Or model revisions that make some 308s better than others?

There are other versions of that particular PBX, plus other brands other than Panasonic.  My only experience is with the 308 version.

On mine, I marked the extension numbers to make them easier to read.  In the default mode, all you need to do is plug the incoming line to CO1 and any extensions into the outgoing ports 11-18.  To dial an extension, you just dial the port it's hooked to.  For example, you have two phones plugged into ports 11 and 12.  To dial extension 12 from 11, pick up the handset and just dial 1-2.  The default ring for dialing extensions is a two-shorts ring (incoming calls will ring normally but in cascading order, like in my video).  To dial an outside line, pick up the handset and dial 9, then the number.  The PBX also acts as a pulse-to-tone converter.

As far as components that go bad, my only experience with that was when I bought a second one from Goodwill for dirt cheap a few years ago.  I'm not trained in electronic trouble-shooting, but I don't mind tinkering and experimenting if it's not too technical.  You can read about it here: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11219.0

Quote from: briantroutman on February 14, 2018, 12:19:02 PM
You're referring to older phones with a crank that was used to signal the central office, correct? I don't anticipate that I'd be getting into equipment of that vintage, so I should be OK on that count. I had planned on using primarily 500-series type phones because I thought they'd offer the best overall combination of durability, availability, and price. But if I'm incorrect, by all means, set me straight.

There are more "modern" desk sets that used a magneto, such as Leich 901 and "Beehive" phones, Stromberg-Carlson 1248 phones, et al.  I think they're all 40s-era phones.  The technology to rig them as magneto-powered, internal-only extensions is probably not that complicated if you're familiar with electronics.
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: AE_Collector on February 14, 2018, 03:39:29 PM
Most of the Leich (pronounced LIKE) 901's (Bills 3rd picture - first black phone) that I have seen are 1950's, early to mid 50's.

Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: HarrySmith on February 14, 2018, 04:18:03 PM
There a lots of topics on here about the Panasonic PBX's. Here is one that has the manual:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=8531.msg91682#msg91682
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: briantroutman on February 15, 2018, 10:33:28 AM
Quote from: AE_Collector on February 14, 2018, 12:28:56 PM
Panasonic used the term Easaphone for many things Phone related for many years.

Thanks, Terry. That clears it up.

Quote from: AE_Collector on February 14, 2018, 12:28:56 PM
The PBX you will find in 8 Station and 16 Station versions. And it is quite easy to use the system in default mode without the need to do any programming through a proprietary Panasonic digital phone.

And if I'm interpreting correctly, the model numbers seem to correspond to the number of stations and lines (308 being 3 lines, 8 stations—616 being 6 lines, 16 stations, etc.). Based on demonstration videos I've seen, the default operation seems very simple.


Quote from: Brinybay on February 14, 2018, 03:03:02 PM
As far as components that go bad, my only experience with that was when I bought a second one from Goodwill for dirt cheap a few years ago.  I'm not trained in electronic trouble-shooting, but I don't mind tinkering and experimenting if it's not too technical.  You can read about it here: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11219.0

Thanks for the link, Bill. The play-by-play account of your process with photos is very helpful and will give me some items to check if I purchase a unit that turns out to be nonworking.

Quote from: HarrySmith on February 14, 2018, 04:18:03 PM
There a lots of topics on here about the Panasonic PBX's. Here is one that has the manual:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=8531.msg91682#msg91682

Thanks for this, Harry—the manual will certainly be most helpful. I can probably determine ahead of time whether there are any programmable features that would make it worth getting one of the Panasonic desk sets.

Again—thanks everyone for being so generous with your time and experience.
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: Owain on February 15, 2018, 11:40:29 AM
It will depend on the version, but the later KX-TA range support hotline dialling for extensions, so you can lift the handset and the system will dial a number for you automatically, which is useful for demonstrating dial-less phones.
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: AE_Collector on February 15, 2018, 11:46:26 AM
Yes, 308 is 3 lines and 8 stations etc. Identifying maximum capacity this way is pretty close to an industry standard for electronic key systems by most manufacturers.

Terry
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: Babybearjs on February 15, 2018, 07:45:19 PM
I'm so glad I have a 1A1 system.....4 line 10 extensions with a whole house intercom.... and the growth is unlimited....
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: compubit on February 15, 2018, 09:34:53 PM
I will put my 2¢ in on the Panasonic Switches: if  you can find one and afford it, go for a KX-TA624 or KX-TA824.

They often "start out" as 3x8 systems (3 incoming lines and 8 extensions), but can be upgraded to 6x16, then 6x24 (KX-TA624) or 8x24 (KX-TA824).  With the "master" phone, you can program everything, but a lot can be done with feature codes.  I haven't delved into the manual (it's in a 3" binder) - I just use it in the default setting.

I have 2 solidly working systems and a couple I got for almost nothing that aren't working, but I think one is a fuse, though not the other 2...  I got my first one from work - it cost me a bag of Easter Candy (after Easter, when on sale) - it was leftover from an old office my company had in Florida, and has the caller ID modules, and the Voice Mail system.  Not bad for a $3 "investment". 

I use it all of the time to test phones, plus I have one line connected to the master line in my house (when I get my kitchen done, then I'll have some new wires run upstairs and into the basement, so that each jack can have its own line.  Maybe by then I'll have a working C*Net node here at home...

Jim
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: briantroutman on February 16, 2018, 03:57:11 PM
Quote from: Babybearjs on February 15, 2018, 07:45:19 PM
I'm so glad I have a 1A1 system.....4 line 10 extensions with a whole house intercom.... and the growth is unlimited....

Hi John- I don't know if you noticed—after receiving your post about 1A1 systems on the first page, I responded below it with a few questions. But I can summarize here in short:

If I go with a 1A1 (or similar Western Electric key system), am I limited to using only key system phones (such as a 565 five-line phone instead of a normal 500 desk set)? Or can other standard phones be somehow converted or adapted to work with the key system? I don't have a need for multiple lines or to dial out, so losing that functionality isn't a problem.

Also, other than searching eBay or trying to gain access to old office building's phone closets and basements, do you have any suggestions of where I might look for a key system if I decide to explore that option?

Many thanks for the suggestions.


Quote from: compubit on February 15, 2018, 09:34:53 PM
I will put my 2¢ in on the Panasonic Switches: if  you can find one and afford it, go for a KX-TA624 or KX-TA824.

Thanks for the cents, Jim. Having the specific model numbers has made it easy for me to find PDF versions of the owner's manuals, and I can comb through to see if any features stand out that might steer me to one system vs. others.
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: rdelius on February 16, 2018, 05:01:50 PM
To use telephones on a 1a1 or ia2 you must modify them for a lead control.If the telephone set has hookswitch break contacts on both sides of the line, one can borrow one set for a lead control You would nwwe additionak keys to select the line if this is important
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: AE_Collector on February 17, 2018, 12:33:57 AM
Any 1A1 or 1A2 System isn't "really" what you want. It is a system to operate the lights on the old pre electronic key system phones. An add on that a complete key system frequently had was an intercom on a line key to call to other stations. Single line "normal" phones can usually be modified to work in a key system but without some key phones there is little reason to have a key system. You could have just the intercom portion but for ease of set up and overall features such as the ability to dial out of the system by dialing 9...an electronic key system such as the Panasonic is the way to go. Many electronic key systems only work with their own proprietary phones which isn't what you want either, thus the Panasonic is what you want. If you really get into this and down the road you want some old key phones then you can start playing with 1A1 and/or 1A2.

Terry
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: Owain on February 17, 2018, 09:05:28 AM
and you can use the Panasonic to provide "CO" lines to your 1A2.
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: Greg G. on February 18, 2018, 12:11:17 AM
Quote from: AE_Collector on February 14, 2018, 03:39:29 PM
Most of the Leich (pronounced LIKE) 901's (Bills 3rd picture - first black phone) that I have seen are 1950's, early to mid 50's.

Who's Bill?
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: Greg G. on February 18, 2018, 12:15:44 AM
Quote from: briantroutman on February 15, 2018, 10:33:28 AM

Thanks for the link, Bill.


There's that Bill guy again!  Maybe I should start hanging out here more.   :o

Greg

Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: AE_Collector on February 18, 2018, 01:24:54 AM
Sorry Greg...I've always had this tendency to confuse yourself and Bill (PhonesRfun) with each other...not in person, just online. No idea why...I associate the two of you together since you both are here on CRPF, both in Washington, both worked on WA shows, met you both at WA shows. Then my error likely threw Brian ... let me check....yup, threw Brian off track.

My apologies and I only wish I could guarantee it won't happen again!

Terry
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: briantroutman on February 19, 2018, 11:56:55 AM
Yes, sorry Greg! I wanted to thank people by name where possible—always feel a little awkward addressing people by screen names. Thanks again for your input and advice.

Quote from: AE_Collector on February 17, 2018, 12:33:57 AM
Any 1A1 or 1A2 System isn’t “really” what you want. ...An add on that a complete key system frequently had was an intercom on a line key to call to other stations.

Thanks, Terry. Based on what I’ve read in the 1A1 system documentation (in the TCI library), it seems that the "Dial Selective Intercommunicating” feature would allow extension-to-extension dialing, but it’s not clear to me whether the key system generates dial tone or an audible ringing signal. It also appears that the Western Electric key systems were sold as a series of modular components, so—if I understand correctly—I would need to find a key system that has the necessary intercommunication module installed in order to dial from extension to extension.

From my perspective, the benefit of using an old Western Electric key system would be having an electromechanical switch connecting the calls. But as mentioned in my first post, I don’t foresee connecting my internal network to an outside phone line (let alone multiple lines), so the added complication of using multi-line desk sets with line selector and hold buttons would make that option somewhat less attractive. You mention that other phones can be modified to work with the system...is that a very complicated process?

And then there’s also some other questions associated with a key system: Where would I find one...and all of the necessary components? How much should it cost? And so on.

Correct me if you disagree, but I think this a fair assessment:
An old 1A1 or 1A2 key system might do what I wanted and have the benefit of using an electromechanical switch (which I’d prefer over an all-electronic system). But still, it would be hard to beat an older Panasonic PBX for availability, affordability, and ease of setup and use.
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: rdelius on February 19, 2018, 12:34:26 PM
A dial selective intercomdoes not have a dial tone or ringback
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: compubit on February 19, 2018, 08:35:39 PM
To clarify -

The 1A-series intercoms where you can "dial" a phone, basically have a separate box, which listens for either the tones or counts the pulses, then triggers one line, which you feed with either 90VAC to the bell or 10/18 VAC to a buzzer.  Each phone is punched down to the specific extension it is tied to.  When the appropriate number is dialed, then that "extension" buzzes/rings, but like most 1A-series equipment, the ringing is "out of band", meaning it's done on different wires, rather than the primary line itself.

I'm attaching a basic schematic.  The Icom Box provides a talk path (but no dial tone), when someone "calls" an extension, the box matches the number dialed and passes the VRING and VGND to connections "B" and "G" on the desired device.  B & G are connected to a bell, ringer, etc., based on the input for VRING.  While the extension is "ringing", the calling party hears nothing until the called party answers.  The talk path (T & R) are shared amongst all users.

Valcom (and other manufacturers) make these intercoms, but would require 2-pair to each phone - one for talk, and the other for signaling (plus you'd have to rewire the phones, if they're just single-line phones).

I hope this makes sense...

Jim
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: AE_Collector on February 19, 2018, 11:14:03 PM
In other words, the talk path is there for all phones...no switching. When you dial an extension this buzzes or rings that Extension alerting them to pick up...sort of like the old party lines. Newer electronic intercoms such as Mitel provide dial tone and ring back tone but buzzers are still in a seoeratevpair to each Phone or for that matter mounted on the phone jack with a conventional unmodified phone plugged into the jack.


Picture of Mitel 19 Station electronic intercom...blue box bottom right. Above it is part of two 1A2 panels. 1A2 has replacement line cards where as 1A1 is all relay.

This equipment isn't hard to find. I just sold a Shoe Box System which collectors like because if the small size though it doesn't come with an intercom. Remember, these intercoms don't need the 1A1/2 systems to work.

Terry
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: briantroutman on February 20, 2018, 10:41:56 AM
Quote from: rdelius on February 19, 2018, 12:34:26 PM
A dial selective intercomdoes not have a dial tone or ringback

Thanks for answering that question. The lack of those two features certainly do make the prospect of using a key system less attractive (for me, anyway).

Quote from: compubit on February 19, 2018, 08:35:39 PM
The 1A-series intercoms where you can "dial" a phone, basically have a separate box, which listens for either the tones or counts the pulses, then triggers one line, which you feed with either 90VAC to the bell or 10/18 VAC to a buzzer...

Thanks, Jim. That explanation does make sense and is very helpful. And if you took the time to sketch out that schematic just to help answer my question, I'm most impressed and thankful.

Quote from: AE_Collector on February 19, 2018, 11:14:03 PM
In other words, the talk patch is there for all phones...no switching. When you dial an extension this buzzes or rings that Extension alertingbthem to pick up...sortbof like the old party lines.

Thanks, Terry. Between your explanation and Jim's above, I can see just why you earlier said that a 1A system isn't really what I want. Perhaps I might tinker with one in the future when I have more space, but for now at least, I'm pretty confident that a Panasonic PBX will be a fast, easy, cheap, and space-efficient way to get started. Then if I want to get more ambitious later, I might try constructing that ten-line miniature exchange that Owain posted the schematics for—which in some ways seems to be precisely what I want (just a challenge to build). And if I find myself with lots of available room in the future, lots of time to devote to learning how to get and keep it working, and can find one, I might try to get an old step-by-step switch.
Title: Re: Setting up a home rotary phone network/switching system
Post by: briantroutman on April 12, 2018, 06:04:25 PM
Hi everyone-

Just a quick follow-up: I did purchase a Panasonic Easa-Phone 616 PBX and two Western Electric 500 telephones—later models with all modular connections.

As expected, it does just about everything I expected it to. Getting it running couldn't have been simpler, and for the price (about $30), I couldn't imagine a more complete solution.

If I had to list any disappointments, it would be these few:

The various system tones are kind of alien to someone accustomed to Bell System sounds. I thought I saw a video of someone demonstrating a Panasonic PBX where its dial tone was basically the same as generic ESS dial tone, but on my unit, the dial tone is a very different sounding tone with a higher pitch. The other sounds are likewise very un-Bell: Ringback, busy, and reorder tones seem to be the same dial tone, just halted with different cadences. I'm not particularly fond of the UK-like double ring cadence either, but at least it's coming from the same physical bell on the receiving end.

The more problematic feature for me from a functional standpoint is how quickly the system jumps from dial tone to a reorder tone—which seems to be about 10 seconds. As I'm trying to teach my two-year-old how to dial, ten seconds will often pass by the time she finds the right digits and dials them, so I frequently have to tell her to hang up and try again. Granted, this is a use case that Panasonic probably wasn't considering. Perhaps this timeout is programmable with an Easa-Phone set; I'll look through the PDF of the manual I have. My daughter is happy just to have her phone's bell finally ringing.

About the phones themselves: One seems to be OK, but the other isn't transmitting voice. I posted a thread on it in the troubleshooting board in case you're interested and would like to help out: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=20217.0 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=20217.0)